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#26 DrVenkman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:02 PM

This is just like every other emkay post or thread ... everyone is apparently supposed to read his mind from a handful of obtuse comments and suggestive remarks ...

 

*yawn*


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#27 Stephen OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:29 PM

This is just like every other emkay post or thread ... everyone is apparently supposed to read his mind from a handful of obtuse comments and suggestive remarks ...

 

*yawn*

But that opinion is correct and we are all wrong, so ... What to do?


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#28 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:20 PM

Guys, guys .. give me one more day to add NTSC support .. meanwhile enjoy the video ..

 

Also any idea how to prevent modern TVs to show things outside the normal overscan areas ?


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#29 Mathy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:23 PM

Hallo Mario

 

What's wrong?  Your attitude, as usual!

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy



#30 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:51 PM

Guys, guys .. give me one more day to add NTSC support .. meanwhile enjoy the video ..

 

Also any idea how to prevent modern TVs to show things outside the normal overscan areas ?

Nice, thanks for the video R0ger! IxI



#31 mytek OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:43 PM

Looking very nice.

To answer the question of what's wrong, where's the xex download of this demo that I can run on my hardware?

#32 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:53 PM

Looking very nice.

To answer the question of what's wrong, where's the xex download of this demo that I can run on my hardware?

http://atariage.com/...demo/?p=4240083

these are the droids you are looking for..


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#33 MARIO130XE OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:51 AM

Guys, guys .. give me one more day to add NTSC support .. meanwhile enjoy the video ..

 

 

Also any idea how to prevent modern TVs to show things outside the normal overscan areas ?

 

Damn, if this is possible, why we still have the most ugly car in ATARI's Poleposition?? /jk There are some more crappy conversions outside of the ATARI world.

 

Great gfx!!  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:



#34 popmilo OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:15 PM

Also any idea how to prevent modern TVs to show things outside the normal overscan areas ?

Don't use modern tv ;)


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#35 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:25 PM

vgate
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#36 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:31 PM

Don't use modern tv ;)

 

Sadly you don't have control over that on compos. This time all the ugly trash on the right was shown, and you can also see left side. I even put several COLBK changes over the grass part, which wouldn't be necessary with normal overscan. That part uses GTIA 16 shades mode, and usually you just use darkest possible COLBK of the desired hue, and set the shade with fields. But that left huge dark gap on the left side. And good thing i did it !

Testing the demo we found out some TVs just do it. Some even do it just sometimes. It's like they detect if there is some widecreen signal or not, and then decide what mode they will use.


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#37 danwinslow OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:34 PM

Looks very nice. No idea what kind of load it's putting on the cpu through. Is there enough left over for a game or is this strictly a demo? Either way, looks great, and well done.



#38 mytek OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:47 PM

Yes V-Gate would fix that in hardware. Maybe good reason for me to finally get back to the stand-alone version and correct the color switching circuit. Already done for the 1088XEL and XLD machines. And it's built-in to Sophia.

 

"The Road" demo is very impressive :) .


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#39 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:47 PM

Looks very nice. No idea what kind of load it's putting on the cpu through. Is there enough left over for a game or is this strictly a demo? Either way, looks great, and well done.

 

Answered in depth in the other thread.



#40 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:03 AM

What we have for now is a demo that shows "the impossible" , just by someone did actually something right.
Reading the coder's statement, it is now some chaotic assembled code, just to show something.

At least we have now something to show that is far superior to all other software in that range.

Well 40 Years after the Atari was released first. So possibly in 200 Years the next step will be achieved.

Edited by emkay, Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:04 AM.


#41 baktra OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:32 AM

This is just like every other emkay post or thread ... everyone is apparently supposed to read his mind from a handful of obtuse comments and suggestive remarks ...

 

*yawn*

Ability to create click-bait headlines is a skill as any other :-)


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#42 zzip OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:56 AM

What we have for now is a demo that shows "the impossible" , just by someone did actually something right.
Reading the coder's statement, it is now some chaotic assembled code, just to show something.

At least we have now something to show that is far superior to all other software in that range.

Well 40 Years after the Atari was released first. So possibly in 200 Years the next step will be achieved.

 

I didn't see anything in the demo that I considered impossible.    But it's very well put together.    The car only uses like 3 colors, but it's well-drawn and gives the impression that it uses more.  One of the issues with older 8-bit software is the programmers who created it were often crap at art.  They usually didn't have dedicated artists back then  or it was considered acceptable to use P/M graphics on the widest possible setting for a car as in Pole Position. 

 

So that kind of thinking lowered our expectations, I think


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#43 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:42 AM

Indeed, it's nothing special. The problem is how to make the road and at least two cars, at high FPS (ie. using mostly hardware). One car never was problem. I wanted to try making road using PMG, and I accepted this problem. I didn't try to solve it. For demo it's fine, and I tested what I wanted.


Edited by R0ger, Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:42 AM.

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#44 _The Doctor__ OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:33 AM

Ability to create click-bait headlines is a skill as any other :-)

oooh is that a link I see in baktra message..... must not click, must not, click! oh no couldn't help it!

 

no I didn't click it but that is how it goes for some folks! The curiosity and the ominous link just there, they hover, trying to discern where it will lead, and they just can't help but click it.



#45 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:27 PM

I didn't see anything in the demo that I considered impossible.    But it's very well put together.    The car only uses like 3 colors, but it's well-drawn and gives the impression that it uses more.


Hmm... See the cross-argumentation there?
You don't see the technical part, you "just see the visual". R0ger is putting his work down by himself. But, there is really nothing comparable in the list of software for the small Atari.
You see the car with "just three colors" in an arrangement, you'd never get with PM-Graphics , and btw. the car has 4 colors.


One of the issues with older 8-bit software is the programmers who created it were often crap at art.  They usually didn't have dedicated artists back then  or it was considered acceptable to use P/M graphics on the widest possible setting for a car as in Pole Position. 
 
So that kind of thinking lowered our expectations, I think


The odd part is that the cars use that low resolution for the movement and animation also, because handling the PMg for that low details is consuming a lot CPU. Yes, the road wouldn't look that ... erm ... detailed ? , but detailed cars had been much more impressive.

In character mode, the road could be done, changing every second scanline to avoid DMA problems. Then Players could be used for the road in a coarse way, and the missiles would need a more accurate shaping for the "white red" lines.
Also, in character mode , the character movement would be appropriate for most moving objects.

#46 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:48 PM

Hmm... See the cross-argumentation there?
You don't see the technical part, you "just see the visual". R0ger is putting his work down by himself. But, there is really nothing comparable in the list of software for the small Atari.
You see the car with "just three colors" in an arrangement, you'd never get with PM-Graphics , and btw. the car has 4 colors.



The odd part is that the cars use that low resolution for the movement and animation also, because handling the PMg for that low details is consuming a lot CPU. Yes, the road wouldn't look that ... erm ... detailed ? , but detailed cars had been much more impressive.

In character mode, the road could be done, changing every second scanline to avoid DMA problems. Then Players could be used for the road in a coarse way, and the missiles would need a more accurate shaping for the "white red" lines.
Also, in character mode , the character movement would be appropriate for most moving objects.

 

Problem is, if you scroll the characters for the road, how would you draw the objects ?

I think non-character mode would be better. you could have road prescrolled, and not use hscroll at all. Then you would select proper lines, and draw graphics over it. And then you can indeed use just character precision (like Chase HQ), or if you have enough memory, have everything prescrolled.



#47 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:51 PM

Problem is, if you scroll the characters for the road, how would you draw the objects ?
I think non-character mode would be better. you could have road prescrolled, and not use hscroll at all. Then you would select proper lines, and draw graphics over it. And then you can indeed use just character precision (like Chase HQ), or if you have enough memory, have everything prescrolled.


Why scrolling the characters for the road, if the road is build upon PMG?
Of course scrolling has to be avoided for more available CPU cycles.

#48 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:35 PM

Oh, I see .. well then I think road like this is just too simple. You want side stripes, more stripes, or even forks. Road as PMG does not allow that.

Also at the bottom, I have to set 4 player and 3 missile positions. That can't be done on one line, so even like this I change left side of the road on odd lines and right side on even lines. So it wouldn't go well with character mode.

It could be done if the road was even narrower .. but I would actually want to have it way wider.


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#49 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:49 PM

Oh, I see .. well then I think road like this is just too simple. You want side stripes, more stripes, or even forks. Road as PMG does not allow that.
Also at the bottom, I have to set 4 player and 3 missile positions. That can't be done on one line, so even like this I change left side of the road on odd lines and right side on even lines. So it wouldn't go well with character mode.
It could be done if the road was even narrower .. but I would actually want to have it way wider.


Of course, if the update of the road has to be done every frame, it is usual to use the shapes, not the DMA for the PMg.
Also, you don't need to change all Players and missiles in one scanline. In the lower range you might even not taking care of 2 players , just set the "outline" by two players and missiles.
forks could be a real nasty challenge. But, if you already have set the width and shapes of a player, you can re-use the "smaller" shapes in one scanline.

I might be needed to write code snippets for the "possibilies" and to take them from a cart by request.

#50 R0ger OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:26 PM

I'm not revisiting the problem for at least a year, so feel free :-)


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