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1.44 floppy in a 1050?


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#1 Bikerbob OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:08 AM

Did this really happen? Using 1.44mb floppies .. can format them to whatever.. just 1.44mb floppies are all that are still around to get.

 

I say a pic that 1200 Bob put up.. but I have no idea what to search for.. not found a thread on the project.

 

Was this all laid out at some time.. I have a couple of 1050s I would love to use for this project.

 

I like the xf551 project.. but not willing to hack up my only xf551 or 314 from my STs.

 

James



#2 _The Doctor__ ONLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:32 AM

you can still buy brand new in the box/case 5.25 DSDD and 3.5 inch (720k formatted) disks...

 

as for a mod to do such density using the 1050's board... I don't see it anywhere.



#3 manterola OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:13 AM

Jurgen has been playing with the idea of a modified version of the sf551 board that might support 1.44 floppies. It is not a reality yet.
It will also need a modified version of the firmware

#4 guus.assmann OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:40 AM

A 1,44mb drive in a 1050 is next to impossible.
The 1050 has a stepper motor that's driven by it's firmware and also the signals from the heads are processed on the 1050 PCB.
In a 3 1/4 floppy unit, these functions are performed by the drive unit.

It is possible to put this 1,44mb unit in a XF-drive. Modified firmware is available as well.
And you can buy a PCB to (re)build this drive.

BR/
Guus

Edited by guus.assmann, Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:41 AM.


#5 CharlieChaplin OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:34 PM

Impossible is nothing.

Some guys have complete computers in a 1050... so why not a 3,5" HD drive ?!?

 

Of course one would only use the 1050 case and not the pcb of the 1050. Should not be such a big problem to place e.g. a HDI into the 1050 case. But, I don't trust HD floppy disks, they lose the data almost as fast as you store it on them. DD is always much better and lasts much longer. Anyone out there with a 3,5" or 5,25" HD disk thats 40 years old and still working ?!? (Okay, have to ask again in 5-10 years maybe, since 3,5" and 5,25" HD disks are not available since 40 years.)

 

So the answer is, that a 1,44 MB floppy in a 1050 using the 1050 pcb is not possible, but a 1,44 MB Atari floppy using just the 1050 case is no problem (if you design your own pcb or use an already existing one, like the HDI)...



#6 carlsson OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:53 PM

If you would gut an entire drive in order to put in another drive that would need a fair bit of work to be supported, consider some more modern storage solution alltogether and keep the 1050 as it is?


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#7 ricortes OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:22 PM

So basically it could be done if everything 1050 was discarded except the plugs and case? ;)

 

The FDC in the 1050 is more capable then the 810, but no cigar. For a few things, it would probably need to have a 2 MHz(4 MHz?) to output the data rate and it would probably be tough to do anything but make it think the 3.5" drive was a 1 Meg 8". You still have to expand the RAM like the USDoubler if you don't want dozens of sectors per track. Write currents would be off. Real can of worms.

 

The XF551 though; has a built in 10 MHz clock, replacements Ajax FDC chip are around. It would still need a complete rework so good luck. By necessity it would be north of $100 just to get the ICs and PC board.

 

I am not knocking labors of love or challenges. This seems like a near impossible nut to crack that would end up not being cost effective or widely adopted. Almost better off getting a small MSDOS based motherboard that will fit in a 1050 case and put a 1.44 Meg floppy in there too to run SIO2PC.


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#8 Kyle22 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:29 PM

It's more than all that. You would need to use an XF-551 and put a double speed clock crystal in it. Big firmware changes as well. You'd need to get that special (expensive) FDC chip that Best Electronics sells to handle the fast clock.

 

This is a MAJOR project.



#9 JR> OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:38 PM

How about a raspberry pi and a usb 3.5 drive?  :-D



#10 Kyle22 OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:53 PM

can a Pi do it? This still sounds like cheating.



#11 tf_hh OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:31 AM

Did this really happen? Using 1.44mb floppies .. can format them to whatever.. just 1.44mb floppies are all that are still around to get.

 

Not with the standard PCB used. The firmware, the interface and finally the FDC itself is not able to drive 1.44 industry standard drive mechanics. With a new mainboard and new firmware and... it´s possible :)

 

IMHO one of the best HD floppy solutions is Karin Maxi Drive. Unfortunately only for XE availible...



#12 tf_hh OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:26 AM

Jurgen has been playing with the idea of a modified version of the sf551 board that might support 1.44 floppies. It is not a reality yet.
It will also need a modified version of the firmware

 

I´ve talked to Stefan Dorndorf, creator of the Hyper-XF firmware. Unfortunately there´s no real way to realize without complete new firmware and/or hardware. 512 Bytes per sector not possible without hardware mod (external RAM or new MCU). There´s absolute no free byte in the firmware´s space. To include HD, it would be needed to remove other features of Hyper XF. The MCU is too slow and must work at 16 MHz, too. This would need changes to the whole firmware.... so after all, it´s not very feasible.



#13 Larry OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:58 AM

Hi Jurgen-

 

I bought one of the Karin drives several years ago.  (From memory) One issue with the Karin is that it uses a different floppy track read/write scheme.  It's scheme is actually better than the XF -- alternating sides rather than using all of side 1, then going to side 2.  But that means that if you already have a large number of XF format 3.5" disks, they don't work with the Karin.  And since the Floppy Board uses the XF protocol, it is incompatible with that also.

 

Long story short, 720K is a better option for the XF (including the questionable reliability of HD disks with the WD 1772-02-02). Unless folks don't mind losing a file here and there... ;)

 

-Larry



#14 tf_hh OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:11 AM

Hi Larry,

 

I bought one of the Karin drives several years ago.  (From memory) One issue with the Karin is that it uses a different floppy track read/write scheme.  It's scheme is actually better than the XF -- alternating sides rather than using all of side 1, then going to side 2.  But that means that if you already have a large number of XF format 3.5" disks, they don't work with the Karin.  And since the Floppy Board uses the XF protocol, it is incompatible with that also.

 

You´re right - that´s one issue of nearly all "foreign" disk formats. Karin is not compatible to a converted XF551, nor to the german "HDI" and so on.

 

But, IMHO all these "new" solutions - i.e. all disk formats beyond the standards given by the Atari 810 or Atari 1050 - are mostly for private usage only. I remember when having a XF551 in the 80s, I used the 360K format, but nobody else in my "inner circle of software swap guys" could read/write this format. So the lowest common denominator was double density 180k with DOS 2.x format (a Happy 1050 or Speedy was always "a must have" for everyone...).

 

Today - my personal view - using disks are only for nostalgic reasons, to have the good old haptic feelings and sound. So I used (for example) Karin at my all-day work with my XE systems and 1.44 MB disks. It´s fine, and I´ve no need to be compatible to other people, therefore some 1050 are waiting for their mission :-)



#15 _The Doctor__ ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:25 AM

I just lost my biggest fastest best Atari use SD card this week, my floppy disks are still fine....  long after my hard spinning disks cease and my sd cards cry out and age/wear level out... my Floppy disks will still be here and found to be working... except for a few...



#16 ricortes OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:38 AM

I just lost my biggest fastest best Atari use SD card this week, my floppy disks are still fine....  long after my hard spinning disks cease and my sd cards cry out and age/wear level out... my Floppy disks will still be here and found to be working... except for a few...

When you start the reliability talk, it can be done but price goes up of course. I mean the near ideal would be a SSD instead of an SD card, but then price goes up. Everything we do is price sensitive when it comes to acceptance. It would be almost as easy to do an Arduino or Raspberry Pi with a SSD instead of a SD card but I think most users would balk at the extra expense. I guess what I am trying to say is you are right, but right when people are thinking about cost, cost seems to win. Sometimes it is lonely being right! hehe



#17 ivop OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:47 AM

can a Pi do it? This still sounds like cheating.

 

If you run an USB stack on a Pi Zero, bare metal (no Linux), it could be just a "converter" between SIO and USB and vice versa. They are even related ;)



#18 Bikerbob OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:43 PM

Ok, so what is the pic that 1200 Bob put up in the forum? I saw someone posted it again in the XF551/ 314 344 thread about all that... that was a 720k? that was done? or not ??

 

Point is.. I have a 1050.. I have no use for.. as a collector etc.. I would like to re-purpose  the case to something useful.. no I am not doing an 1088XLD.. because I already have everything to build an XLE and I am not building two.

 

BUT --- having a 3.5" drive to use with the XLD might be cool.. or with my stuff in general..  For those that think I am doing this because I need it.. NO.. I have 9 drives.. I have SIDE2 I have incognito.. I dont need it.. Im looking for something cool to do with the drive.

 

 

James



#19 mytek OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:59 PM

The picture Bob posted was a 720K 3.5" floppy drive mounted in a 1050 case. That is certainly doable with the right brackets :) .



#20 manterola OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:33 PM

The picture Bob posted was a 720K 3.5" floppy drive mounted in a 1050 case. That is certainly doable with the right brackets :) .

yep. You can use the xf551 circuit and use the sio connectos of the 1050. You just need to find (there are plenty) a 3.5 drive with black faceplate, the black brackets (a liitle more difficult but an off white can be painted to match 1050 color) and you are good to go!.

You really don't need a 720k only drive.. a 1.44M drive can also work at double density.

Here is an example or a black drive:

https://www.ebay.com...uMAAOSwsv5cgDcE


Edited by manterola, Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:37 PM.





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