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Retro collecting 20 years from now


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#1 derFunkenstein ONLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 5:27 PM

 

This is a brain breaking question for me. It doesn't matter if you have physical copies of games, it seems like every game these days has a day-1 patch where the game won't run without downloading it. So what happens when those day-1 patches go away? How do we preserve what we'e bought in a future where we never had the complete game in our possession? Made me kinda sad just thinking about it. 



#2 Mulletino OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 5:58 PM

Yup, pretty much renders today's consoles useless in a future collecting scenario other than to be looked at. Just more victims of today's digital disposable society.

 

TBH when the older generations that grew up with the old systems are dead, will there be anyone to bother with collecting? Seems most kids nowadays only know subscription services and don't really "own" anything other than the hardware they access it on, which seems to get replaced as soon as the next model comes out and the old is discarded. Will they share the same kind of rose tinted views we all have with playing on older systems? I doubt it.

 

I've been making sure my sons are exposed to older gaming, with my three year old's favourite game being Sonic II. Although that's mainly through emulation (yeah even if it's ATgames) and versions on new hardware. So he'll have the memories of the games, but no association or love for the hardware. Guess I should bust out my original consoles when he's older so he can appreciate the aesthetics of it all....



#3 TheCoolDave OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 6:39 PM

Agreed 10,000%...  It's the biggest problem with the push for digital only games... When you buy a digital game, it's license is stored on your email account that is associated with your account, Xbox, PlayStation, or even Nintendo.   They all run the same way, you need to logon with your email/password that you got the game on to be able to use it.

 

So, if that console of yours gets dropped into your basement, as the Xbox 10 comes out or the PS12 hits the market, then you change your password ONCE in 15 years(I'm sure it will be changed many times over that time), all that content is unusable and gone if you just give or sell that system to someone else.  Bye bye classic games....never to be seen again from all those things you paid for.

 

If you read the fine print, Microsoft's is pretty much the same, so by buying digital only, you take the risk of that content no longer being available.  As for updates, yea that stinks but, if the game was playable with out a patch, you should STILL be able to install it and play it.  If you only by digitally, and your system dies when you boot it up 20+ years from now... Oh, well.

 

Now we look over modern games, The funny thing, 25 years from, the ones who collected the boxed/retail copies will make money off the classics.  If I walked into a yard sale, and saw a console. if it was just a console, it's meh but, if it's got a bunch of games, it's a whole different story.

 

I play classic games and have a pretty large collection of classic consoles but, I also play the current stuff.  85% of my games are physical.  There is a few like a COD or something where 1.7 billion were sold and I will play it a lot, I might buy digital but, most of the stuff I will go to the store/online and buy.

 

It's something game collectors should really think about when they are on the fence of buying a digital game...



#4 atarilovesyou OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 7:05 PM

Newer gamers won't care the way we do. It's going to be generational. No different from other cultural differences among people. I swear the companies did this so they could remove the secondary market for retro games. Now...if they release that will ALWAYS be able to play the games you bought, different story. But kids don't care and until they do, digital is going to be the endgame. No ohysixal anything, pure profits to the companies and gamers with nothing to show for their collections. Almost like what happened to CDs and music, only you don't need proprietary equipment to play an audio file.

#5 TheCoolDave OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 7:42 PM

Newer gamers won't care the way we do. It's going to be generational. No different from other cultural differences among people. I swear the companies did this so they could remove the secondary market for retro games. Now...if they release that will ALWAYS be able to play the games you bought, different story. But kids don't care and until they do, digital is going to be the endgame. No ohysixal anything, pure profits to the companies and gamers with nothing to show for their collections. Almost like what happened to CDs and music, only you don't need proprietary equipment to play an audio file.

 

They will care...in time(20-30 years down the line).. but, by then, it will be too late...

 

To collectors... keep buying physical copies...  When the time comes, as they do today, they will later, they will have value. Something a digital copy could never have.


Edited by TheCoolDave, Tue Apr 9, 2019 7:42 PM.


#6 CatPix OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 7:47 PM

Piracy will be there in 20 years.

Remember the Satellaview games, that were only available in Japan during special time frames to be downloaded? Well, not all of them have been saved, but alot of them have been, thanks to people patiently picking up Satellaview and tearing in the backup data banks and recovering the data.

 

In 20 years from now, you'll just slap an USB stick in your PS3/PS4, that will have all the patches, DLC, extra stuff and such. Sure it won't be a physical media, but they will be preserved.



#7 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 7:54 PM

Practically every new consumer demands digital downloads. Theyre not likely to take an interest in collecting even in 20 years from now.

Most collecting happens because cartridges and the symmetrical look they sport when put on a shelf.

Edited by Keatah, Tue Apr 9, 2019 8:02 PM.


#8 Tanooki OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 8:05 PM

Well as consoles went down the tubes for collecting, handhelds have not, at least so far mostly.  Nintendo people ragged on for being cheap with their 32GB of space if that in the Switch, 3DS models, WiiU, DSi, Wii.  But, was it ONLY them being cheap or seeing how the other people operated and what they allowed to continue, true lack of QC and allowing hot garbage to get released with big day 1 patches to complete the game, repair the game, or polish up problems in the game.  In 20 years people can have a Switch library where so far you can count the games on fingers that were broken crap out of the box mainly from EA and 2K which got appropriately and repeatedly mocked and abused online from all sorts of people from fans, fanboy, consumers, the media.  Sure you get enough with quality of life improvements or optional added extra data, but those primary games in many cases are entirely on that card so they'll work in 2019 or 2039.  Same can be said for the PSP, Vita, 2/3DS library as well, even the dumpy WiiU and Wii.  Very few bugs slipped by so you knew when you got your games, they worked and were complete games.

 

Perhaps the future from now those who collect will be Nintendo buyers, and a few who have feelings for the Sony handhelds too, because outside of that Sony, entirely MS, and those android micro console peddlers have done whatever they can to have you rent instead of own complete games.



#9 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 8:16 PM

Collecting will change, for sure. I suspect the "limited edition" console variations will be interesting to some people. I know some people have multiple Nintendo's handhelds in different colors and form factors, for example.

I would think game trading would mostly happen online, probably with a generous side of copyright infringement. Since publishers only get paid the first time they sell a game, they probably see used game sales as not terribly different from piracy anyway.

When I was into physical games (because that's all there was), it was because I could tool around and find sales and bargain bins at retail. I guess one could still track sales at cheapassgamer.com but so many of the usual outlets have closed down that this "sport" isn't viable anymore. Online auctions killed finding anything cool in thrift shops or yard sales.

Maybe other things like stickers and patches and merch will become more interesting snd important to collectors.

#10 HoshiChiri OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 8:47 PM

Piracy will be there in 20 years.
Remember the Satellaview games, that were only available in Japan during special time frames to be downloaded? Well, not all of them have been saved, but alot of them have been, thanks to people patiently picking up Satellaview and tearing in the backup data banks and recovering the data.
 
In 20 years from now, you'll just slap an USB stick in your PS3/PS4, that will have all the patches, DLC, extra stuff and such. Sure it won't be a physical media, but they will be preserved.


This- collecting will shift from actual games to hard drives. Multiple systems will be common, at least until there's a solid database of the ripped information. Just like how today is full of retro fanatics who prefer using flash carts & ROMs,future collectors will simply grab patches from other fans.

#11 youxia OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 9:03 PM

There will be collecting of course, but only of physically collectable stuff we have around now. The stadia, future consoles going digital only and cooperation from old/new gen customers blinded by the digital "convenience" will eventually eliminate any sort of physical presence. In fact, as the OP mentions, it's already happening with some games (especially on Switch) requiring hefty downloads before you even start.

 

So, expect those oft-mocked comedy scalping prices for some common-as-muck Sonic game to be the bottom line in the future, with rare stuff priced in thousands - and more. Of course, since there is a market for it there always will be some homebrew/limited run releases for the collectors, some perhaps just in the silly form of a box with download code in it. But the mass market will be gone.

 

It's undeniably sad, even more so with people on forums such as this one already preaching why it apparently always sucked. Okay...if you say so.

But even if some miracle happens in the future and people will wake up (kinda like some do with Steam now) and manage to  reclaim the right of digital ownership, with ability to trade, it's not the same. Who wants to "collect" a bunch of zeroes and ones on a hard drive?

 

Re the piracy angle: first of all, with the advent of stadia and games which have large portions on company's servers (Diablo 3 etc) the piracy may also be gone. Even if it isn't, it's not the same as real collecting. I mean, yeah, so I have about ~every game ever released up till PS1, but do not consider myself a collector at all. More of a hoardrer/preservationist/pirate but that's a different story.


Edited by youxia, Tue Apr 9, 2019 9:08 PM.


#12 thetick1 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 9:13 PM

Most preservation will be all digital with perfect Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo 3DS & Switch (insert unreleased console here) emulation.  Much like very old consoles and computers of today.  Popular platforms will have perfect emulation just like today...Amiga, Atari ST, Atari 2600, Apple II, Commodore 8-bits, Atari 8-bits, NES, SNES etc..all have perfect emulators now.  And even any obscure platforms may even have very good emulators as just need a dedicated developer(s). 

 

Only a very few hard core collectors will dabble in rare ..very very expensive physical media and much of it will not even work.  I would also expect some card core hardware "nazi"s who proclaim only FPGAs and emulation sucks, but they will be in the very small minority.  I would expect publicly available FPGA designs available  to download and burn most old and currently modern systems along with say the entire known collection (ie 15,000 C-64 games/programs... full Turbo Graphix lib).  The exception may be whatever large companies are left that "protect" their property.  I certainly expect Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft to very likely be around or at least another huge global corporation sucking them up... ie Google, Amazon, Apple, Tencent, Alibaba, Lenovo  etc..


Edited by thetick1, Tue Apr 9, 2019 9:21 PM.


#13 Newsdee OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 10:10 PM

I expect shovelware to disappear, and it won't be possible to have complete collections. That is not a bad thing.

Truly iconic games will probably remain around thanks to efforts of peg legged individuals on black flagged marine vessels.

Edited by Newsdee, Tue Apr 9, 2019 10:10 PM.


#14 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 10:14 PM

Maybe other things like stickers and patches and merch will become more interesting and important to collectors.

I can see that happening. Already a few select boxes and patches and books (especially books) from vintage PC games are important to me. As in my personally issued 486 commerative keychain from Intel. But the actual disks and carts themselves? Not really. Those are simply delivery vehicles. Most all are sitting in a RubberMaid tub.

With Apple II, if I want to play on real disks, I just make one from Asimov. And hand-print a label. Just like the olden days.

Or take for example, Stellarium. A freeware astronomy/starchart program. I made a classy bookshelf binder for the manual, with custom cover art, an insert for some SD cards (containing the program, add-ons, extra ephemerides and datasets), and a note taking section or observer's logbook. A great way to "physicalize" a download only program. Not all that different from what I did with Orbiter and X-Plane. A wintertime project not unlike scrapbooking or other forms of collecting. It moves at the same pace as stamp collecting. And at the heart it's all digital!

How I have arranged my "digital collection" is all "custom" and stuff. Years, decades even, of growth in the directory trees. And THAT is just like a wall full of vintage carts.

Edited by Keatah, Tue Apr 9, 2019 10:19 PM.


#15 youxia OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 10:27 PM

How I have arranged my "digital collection" is all "custom" and stuff. Years, decades even, of growth in the directory trees. And THAT is just like a wall full of vintage carts.

 

It's absolutely nothing like a wall full of vintage carts.



#16 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 10:48 PM

We will have to disagree on that point.

Having built and maintained multiple walls of carts, I can't say I miss doing it one iota. Didn't like the dusting, the searching, the worries of bit-rot, and overall wear and tear. And theft. It simply was not for me. I still remember one little prick that stole an Atari 800 cartridge on me.

But.. The decades of history, manuals, and magazines alone - packed into modern storage devices is simply phenomenal. And the way it is today is the way it will be tomorrow. No deterioration, no fading, easy access.. all in quantities I could not envisage as kid of the 70's.

Edited by Keatah, Tue Apr 9, 2019 10:51 PM.


#17 MrMaddog OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 11:09 PM

Most preservation will be all digital with perfect Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo 3DS & Switch (insert unreleased console here) emulation.  Much like very old consoles and computers of today.  Popular platforms will have perfect emulation just like today...Amiga, Atari ST, Atari 2600, Apple II, Commodore 8-bits, Atari 8-bits, NES, SNES etc..all have perfect emulators now.  And even any obscure platforms may even have very good emulators as just need a dedicated developer(s). 

 

Microsoft is working on backwards compatibility for all Xbox games on current and future consoles.

 

Sony is said to have the PS5 play past Playstation titles.

 

Nintendo had the Virtual Console, Mini Classics and now a collection of their arcade games on the Switch.

 

I don't think current games are going away any time soon because we are no longer 'disposing' old games for new consoles like we did with carts.  They are still for sale, both digitally and physically through used game stores, and it would take a major apocalypse for them not to be available....which means you couldn't play "real' consoles without power anyway.

 

 

Only a very few hard core collectors will dabble in rare ..very very expensive physical media and much of it will not even work.  I would also expect some card core hardware "nazi"s who proclaim only FPGAs and emulation sucks, but they will be in the very small minority. 

 

Now this is what a lot of gamers are acting like now, that you have to play games exactly like everyone else.

 

"You MUST only buy physical copies of console games..."

 

"You MUST only get PC games from Steam..."

 

"You MUST be a hardcore gamer that never plays anything on a phone..."

 

People, these are just games that are meant for fun, to play just whatever and however 'you' like.  Gaming was never meant to be an inclusive lifestyle to get worked up over like it's politics...

 

 

 

It's absolutely nothing like a wall full of vintage carts.

 

You want to see a screenshot of my GOG or Launch Box collection?



#18 davidcalgary29 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Apr 9, 2019 11:15 PM

We will have to disagree on that point.
Having built and maintained multiple walls of carts, I can't say I miss doing it one iota. Didn't like the dusting, the searching, the worries of bit-rot, and overall wear and tear. And theft. It simply was not for me. I still remember one little prick that stole an Atari 800 cartridge on me.
But.. The decades of history, manuals, and magazines alone - packed into modern storage devices is simply phenomenal. And the way it is today is the way it will be tomorrow. No deterioration, no fading, easy access.. all in quantities I could not envisage as kid of the 70's.


And really, how much of our libraries are already digital? Unless you only collect for something like the Jag, which forces you to buy carts (for now!), digital is a must. I have a really large A8 physical library...and all those boxed games and carts probably represent about 5% of the actual library. I just don’t have space for more.

And I think people are forgetting that future gaming will be completely different: physical objects would only distract players from a completely immersive VR experience. Who needs manuals and feelies when the player is the actual controller? I love me a boxed release, but it’s only appropriate for a 2D environment.

#19 Shawn OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:19 AM

How I have arranged my "digital collection" is all "custom" and stuff. Years, decades even, of growth in the directory trees. And THAT is just like a wall full of vintage carts.

 

Not in anyone's head space but yours.



#20 Keatah OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:10 AM

..and that's all that matters.



#21 zetastrike ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:05 AM

I see these guys on YouTube with their walls full of carts and think "never in a million years".

Ever since I got my first everdrive six years ago, I've slowly done away with my collections. I have no desire to possess a bunch of space occupying objects, many of which may not get played for years at a time. And what if there's a flood, or my pipes burst, or a fire, or some jackass finds out I collect old games and pays a visit when I'm not home? Then it's all gone. I can back up a romset 15 different ways.

I'm at the age where I don't care about hoarding trinkets. I don't have the space or desire. I collect hardware when it's feasible, but always go for flash solutions. I don't derive any personal validation from hoarding crap.

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#22 TheCoolDave OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:33 AM

Theyre not likely to take an interest in collecting even in 20 years from now.

 

 

Why do you think that ? I dont fully agree with that. 

 

When I started playing games back in the late 70's, I never got game systems to "collect" them. I got them because I wanted to play games.  I got every system on the market back then because I HATED exclusive games, Nintendo had great games, Sega had great games, Neo-Geo had great games, Even Panasonic with the 3DO had some good games, etc.  When I was done using a console, I bubble wraped it and put it on a shelf.  Games were dumpped in boxes. 

 

Why ? Because I paid $200 for a console that people would give me $5-10 for, It had value so I was not going to dump it (I am strange like that).. I had no thought of collecting them. I have always, in every stage of my life, have had 4-6 consoles setup. 

 

Now 20+ years later, I am trying to assemble all my systems/games I had back then.  I want to bring back my childhood on some things that I remember and I enjoyed. It's why I have gotten pretty hard core at collecting them now.

 

This is what will happen with this generation 15-20 years from now. If they still have their ssytems that is great but, finding disc based media for mostly digital consoles will be very hard and the most desirable. 

 

It's why the Mini-NES was so popular and even you saw a spike in sales of Orginal NES systems when they hit... I saw some restored systems with 5-10 games going for $200+. 



#23 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:40 AM

I think it's difficult to even think about this topic without being influenced by our own experiences. I'll bet we can find speculation in old magazines about "arcades of the future" just as old sci-fi was about radio sets and rocket ships. One of my favorite sites is Paleofuture because it focuses on what people of the past thought the future would bring. 

 

It's bizarre to me how the "wall of cartridges" has become THE signifier of YouTuber game rant credibility. I'm a little older than the core NES/SNES generation so I always felt a little embarrassed seeking out the latest games. Not these guys! Good for them, but did most people really aim for the complete set like this? Or did they have a couple of shoeboxes full of games, like how I imagine most Atari kids collected?

 

Now that enough time has passed, I think I've finally reached the point where I accept the loss of coin-op video arcades (not the redemption stuff that my kid prefers), and have outgrown GameStop to the point where I'll be fine when it's gone. I haven't seen a full-price PC game for sale in a physical retail store for like 10 years and I can't imagine too many people actively collect them with an eye on acquiring a full set, rather than just playing. My Steam/Gog/Origin and now Epic hoard is quite ridiculous, and if I bothered to curate and organize it more, I guess it would qualify as an impressive-to-some "collection." 

 

We already see people nostalgic for ancient-feeling online-only experiences. Everquest is still running, Old School Runescape is healthier than ever, and Vanilla Warcraft is coming back. If there's an unmet need here, the market should fill it. "I miss picking up cheap old games at yard sales" doesn't really count. 

 

If I were a kid I think the Xbox Game Pass would appeal to me for the low cost and breadth of stuff. All you can eat for a monthly fee, even though you keep nothing. Now that I have more money than time, I'd rather buy stuff outright and play whenever (usually never) instead of paying just for access. Subscriptions and bundles seem tricky -- I would think that a casual gamer could just walk away and never buy anything from Xbox again. 

 

Free to play is not going away, and for good reasons -- it shouldn't cost sixty bucks or a subscription just to try something out. I want to believe the worst greedy pay models will die off, and not get rewarded by whaling. I hope I'm right. 

 

Maybe "collections" will look more like things you've done (achievements, game stats, your online character's progress) than things you buy on eBay. When it's not pay-to-win, of course. 



#24 derFunkenstein ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:58 AM

I see these guys on YouTube with their walls full of carts and think "never in a million years".

Ever since I got my first everdrive six years ago, I've slowly done away with my collections. I have no desire to possess a bunch of space occupying objects, many of which may not get played for years at a time. And what if there's a flood, or my pipes burst, or a fire, or some jackass finds out I collect old games and pays a visit when I'm not home? Then it's all gone. I can back up a romset 15 different ways.

I'm at the age where I don't care about hoarding trinkets. I don't have the space or desire. I collect hardware when it's feasible, but always go for flash solutions. I don't derive any personal validation from hoarding crap.

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I just don't have a room to dedicate to this stuff, so I also love ROMs. These YouTubers with more games than I can count have whole rooms in their house for it, and I just can't do that. I've made it a point to buy ROM collections on Steam wherever I can. On my Mega Sg's SD card, I have a folder for my purchased games. Unfortunately the Sega Genesis classics collection on Steam doesn't just have .bin ROMs in it, but I can take the ROMs I have licensed that way out of a SmokeMonster pack and shove 'em in a folder. And I do have a bunch of loose carts, and I've done the same with those ROMs. 75 or 80 Genesis games doesn't sound like a lot compared to all the games in the library, but I never have a problem finding stuff to play.


Edited by derFunkenstein, Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:58 AM.


#25 zetastrike ONLINE  

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Posted Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:05 AM

 
I just don't have a room to dedicate to this stuff, so I also love ROMs. These YouTubers with more games than I can count have whole rooms in their house for it, and I just can't do that. I've made it a point to buy ROM collections on Steam wherever I can. On my Mega Sg's SD card, I have a folder for my purchased games. Unfortunately the Sega Genesis classics collection on Steam doesn't just have .bin ROMs in it, but I can take the ROMs I have licensed that way out of a SmokeMonster pack and shove 'em in a folder. And I do have a bunch of loose carts, and I've done the same with those ROMs. 75 or 80 Genesis games doesn't sound like a lot compared to all the games in the library, but I never have a problem finding stuff to play.

Who cares if you bought the game or not? If you're Genesis mini breaks or you forget your steam password, are you going to take those games off the SD card. No offense, but "I only play roms of games I own" is as dumb of a hill to die on as "physical copies only". And I'm pretty darn sure buying a game does not entitle you to download a rom from the internet.

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