Any hope for future A+ titles on the Jag at this point?

[+CyranoJ]

I wonder how those green shells came into existence? Whoever would have thought of making those?

 

Because asking a store to make you some green shells with a mold they already have and designing a fully working reproduction console yourself are exactly the same thing.

[Austin]

 

Yep.

 

Those green shells look really good on those TMNT carts you and Gaz are offering btw, I wonder how those green shells came into existence? Whoever would have thought of making those?

Anyway it's a good thing they did think of that because it really makes the overall package of that product shine.

 

Rayman 2 on the N64 has all of you beat by a pretty significant margin.

 

[+CyranoJ]

Rayman 2 on the N64 has all of you beat by a pretty significant margin.

 

 

That is a much nicer green than "Wheelie Bin Green"

[PikoInteractive]

Rayman 2 on the N64 has all of you beat by a pretty significant margin.

 

Pff I saw green snes shells with bootleg Pokemon games in the mercados in Monterrey back in 1997-1998. They were produced with green plastic, it was not paint.

[Gummy Bear]

@OP

The Jag was a dismal failure that has somehow held onto a very niche set of fans.

You're not going to get what you seem to want, no matter how much veiled bashing of the Jag's current homebrew developers you do.

 

There isn't the market for "A+" games on the Jag. It wouldn't make any kind of financial sense to set up a massive team and spend months developing a game that will only sell 300 or so copies at best.

 

BTW. Gourmet Warriors isn't a homebrew or a port.

It's a translation of Gurume Sentai Barayarō which was a 'properly' developed, funded and released Super Famicom game.

[Flojomojo]

Lol nope. 100% reproduction. And I wont be the one tackling it somebody else with the proper experience will be.

Mike Kennedy returns!!

[marcio_napoli]

Gummy, it is at this point I'll chime in, although super busy right now.

 

Wait, there's gratuitous juvenile bashing (AKA trolling) and there's expressing a genuine thought of something we all want here. I'm not bashing, please note the difference.

 

Regarding no market for A+ games, Piko is a developer and knows more than both of us do, and kindly offered his thoughts and I'd say very enthusiastic ones. I'm genuinely thanking him for being so brave and enthusiastic, to the point of really giving us a spark of hope. Loved that!

 

After all the comments here, I'm now rooting for any sort of Jaguar clone, hope it ever materializes no matter from which hands it does.

 

You can sign me up for a sale, even though technically I'm a Jag owner now (it's coming this way, ordered mine a couple of days ago).

 

Once again I'll clarify what I mean by A+ games.

 

I mean A+ relative to the Jag.

 

There's A+ for the PS4, which means teams of hundreds of programmers, and A+ for the Jag, which is a decent game but so much smaller in scope that a room of 10 people could do it.

 

Piko can comment a bit more on how that works?

 

I remember Goldeneye for N64 was crafted by a group of 8 or 9 (MAGNIFICENT) developers.

 

By Jag's A+ I'm really not saying GTA V.

 

 

Also, I'm not saying new games developed from the ground.

 

Ports are fine and awesome, but I wish they were at least 16 bit ports.

 

 

Another World came into existence in a time when no one believed the Jag would still get such a great game, yet it did.

 

I consider that one A+++ in my opinion, and how many copies were made? 200, 300 ?

 

 

If more ports like these were made, you could count on my 100 bucks flying out of the wallet.

[Gummy Bear]

Gummy, it is at this point I'll chime in, although super busy right now.

 

Wait, there's gratuitous juvenile bashing (AKA trolling) and there's expressing a genuine thought of something we all want here. I'm not bashing, please note the difference.

You keep saying that: "what we all want".

Most people here are grateful for the considerable efforts that (most) homebrew developers put into existing and future Jag releases, and don't just dismiss them as "8 bit".

 

That's what I'm talking about.

You're seemingly acting as though the Jag has had no games of note since official support ended. That just isn't the case.

[+CyranoJ]

OK, I wasn't going to, but I have to jump in here:

 

A+ for the Jag, which is a decent game but so much smaller in scope that a room of 10 people could do it.

 

This is SPART... err JAGUAR... so lets DO THE MATH!

 

So, lets be utterly unrealistic for what you want and say 12 months work to make, and lets be quite tight about it and say $50k per team member (and, frankly, I wouldn't work for that) and you are already at $500,000 for the first year alone in salary.

 

Add to that any design, manufacture, advertising, shipping and handling, etc and you could easily add a few 10s of $K more.

 

I remember Goldeneye for N64 was crafted by a group of 8 or 9 (MAGNIFICENT) developers.

 

Lets see looking at this... "GoldenEye 007 was developed over a period of two and a half years" and we're now up to $1,250,000.

 

Ports are fine and awesome, but I wish they were at least 16 bit ports.

 

The ports I've done are all from 16 bit systems. So, you get your wish here, it would seem. Maybe you need to do more research because it would appear you are buying into the nonsense spouted by a particularly ignorant group of individuals who like to cause trouble for other people.

 

Now, back to Pikos 1500 units. Assuming he can make them from thin-air at zero cost and ship them for free, at $70 per unit, that is: $105,000 so at this point you are only just over $1,000,000 in the hole.

 

Ah, but you say "we can port it to other machines, and make more money back from the work!" - well, no, not if you go balls in and use the custom chips, because then it won't work anywhere else. Which is why there are so many ports from 16 bit games in the first place. The whole point of a port is to use as much code and assets as possible.

 

In short, good luck finding your Dragons to fund this pipe dream. This thread crops up all the time. People have no conception of the work required to bring even a mini-game type title, let alone a full game to this platform, and the repeated nonsense spouted by the mis-and-or-uninformed people doesn't really encourage anyone new to come and do anything. Sure, anyone can spit out unpolished turds every other week, but that does nobody or the platform any favours. Expecting hobbyists to put out games of the size and scope of the studios back in the day is ridiculous.

[PikoInteractive]

Gummy, it is at this point I'll chime in, although super busy right now.

 

Wait, there's gratuitous juvenile bashing (AKA trolling) and there's expressing a genuine thought of something we all want here. I'm not bashing, please note the difference.

 

Regarding no market for A+ games, Piko is a developer and knows more than both of us do, and kindly offered his thoughts and I'd say very enthusiastic ones. I'm genuinely thanking him for being so brave and enthusiastic, to the point of really giving us a spark of hope. Loved that!

 

After all the comments here, I'm now rooting for any sort of Jaguar clone, hope it ever materializes no matter from which hands it does.

 

You can sign me up for a sale, even though technically I'm a Jag owner now (it's coming this way, ordered mine a couple of days ago).

 

Once again I'll clarify what I mean by A+ games.

 

I mean A+ relative to the Jag.

 

There's A+ for the PS4, which means teams of hundreds of programmers, and A+ for the Jag, which is a decent game but so much smaller in scope that a room of 10 people could do it.

 

Piko can comment a bit more on how that works?

 

I remember Goldeneye for N64 was crafted by a group of 8 or 9 (MAGNIFICENT) developers.

 

By Jag's A+ I'm really not saying GTA V.

 

 

Also, I'm not saying new games developed from the ground.

 

Ports are fine and awesome, but I wish they were at least 16 bit ports.

 

 

Another World came into existence in a time when no one believed the Jag would still get such a great game, yet it did.

 

I consider that one A+++ in my opinion, and how many copies were made? 200, 300 ?

 

 

If more ports like these were made, you could count on my 100 bucks flying out of the wallet.

Ill give you an example.

 

Jim Power in the Lost dimension for NES is a port being done only by shiru, with graphics used from SNES and Amiga version, music re-done to work on NES etc. Its been under development for like 4 years (mainly because it is one programmer) and it is almost done. We had to bring an artist to retouch graphics (as they were downgraded to work on NES) and do a few new ones.

 

So consisdering all the content and game design was already done (as the game came out in the 90s) programming a A+ 8 bit game cost over 15k and 4 years (programming on and off as we took other projects to be able to make money and keep funding Jim) Just imagine an A+ game for Jaguar.

 

If you do a new game from groung up, you need at least 4-6 person team.

 

Programmer, Pixel Artist, Composer, Game Designer, (optional: Manager, and Artwork and packaging artist).

 

Being optimistic they can do a game in 6 months working fulltime, that is about 50-60k in dev cost.

 

Another example, Unholy Night for SNES cost 30k+ of development only, and look at how it runs.

Edited April 14, 2019 by PikoInteractive

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

Mike Kennedy returns!!

Actually NO I was talking about Starwander

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

Mike Kennedy returns!!

Actually NO I was talking about Starwander

[+CyranoJ]

Lets put it another way...

 

This morning I woke up. I hadn't slept well. I don't feel that great. I start working on my game "Gravitic Mines" and what I write sorta, kinda works. It's functional. It gets the job done, but I'm not happy about it. This is my game. I'm doing it for me. I have hopes and aspirations for it. I want it to be good. I'm not doing this for the cash. I'll go back over this and re-work it until I am 100% happy with it, because that is how I roll.

 

Now, lets rewind time and say I woke up and did all that, but it was someone else's game that I was being paid to work on.

 

You asked for code that does X. This code does X. Thank you for the paycheck. What's next?

 

Rethink your attitudes to home brew authors because most of them probably care more about their games than the people who worked on the AAA+ titles you love.

[marcio_napoli]

Cyrano, I understand your POV.

 

I expected my lack of knowledge to hurt feelings and it looks like it sure did.

 

Piko looks like to have reacted a bit better, but either way I understand what you mean and respect.

 

I'm no developer myself, but I assure you I know full well what it's like to take on a gargantuan project.

 

You see... my country has the $hittiest movie industry in the planet.

 

My dream was to become a filmmaker.

 

I had 2 options: A) to move to the US and try my luck which probably would end up in nothing, or B) forget the dream and find satisfaction in creating movies as a hobby.

 

I chose the latter.

 

Each and every short film I did had resulted in some decent achievement (interview on national TV in my country's prime Talk Show, magazines, etc).

 

They're the result of literally years of work.

 

Been doing these since 2003.

 

 

The Aliens inspired short below took me 1 year and a half to finish:

 

Aliens LV-426:

 

 

Everything you see here is a one man journey, as I have zero help from anyone.

 

I have actors and nothing else.

 

Everything else is done by me on endless nights in front of my PC, every cent comes out of my pockets too.

 

 

Every line of dialogue, directing, shooting, editing, visual effects, putting the whole production together, a one man journey.

 

At the moment, I'm producing another short film which is 5 years in the making and already evaporated 45 grand from my pockets. It will be far grander than this Aliens short film.

 

45 grand in my country's currency I must say, but that doesn't matter. It's 45 grand for me, the same way it would be 45 grand for you.

 

The new short is taking 5x more to be completed, and about 10x the budget.

 

 

This little story is to say I understand your journey, or Piko's, or anybody else's.

 

I may not be a programmer, but I know what it's like to climb mountains.

 

But you see...

 

These films I'm doing, not even my country's (Brazil) professional movie industry is trying to do.

 

I'm just no one, not rich, not supported in any way.

 

But I like to believe there's no such thing as impossible.

 

When I started this thread, I must have given the impression I'm asking for new, massive games programmed from the ground.

 

But in fact I'm basing my thoughts on Another World, which seems to defy all logic and yet, it exists, it's real.

 

How can that be possible, right?

 

How would a game like that ever materialize if we only considered the things you wrote above?

 

By the way you've said, I guess Another World must have materialized out of thin air, because it surely can't be made.

 

Interesting, isn't it?

 

As you see by my personal history, I know what it feels like to face massive journeys, I know the mountains you guys move, I move mine as well.

 

But a bit of hope, like Piko has shown in amazing fashion, is not a fool's dream.

 

Hope sometimes become reality indeed.

 

We can always see things surrounded by massive negativity, or by massive enthusiasm.

 

I prefer to chose the latter.

Edited April 14, 2019 by marcio_napoli

[+Gemintronic]

@marcio_napoli: As an indie filmmaker it's probably not exciting to make someone elses movie. That directly transfers to homebrew developers. We've played most Jag games. We've played most games for other retro systems. When I sit down to play I want something new to me. When I create I want to develop something new and fresh - even if it is just a remix of themes. Ports are not as exciting on your own development time.

 

So, very little AAA ports due to reasons already explained in earlier posts. Absolutely: over time many game design risk taking, completely new games.

 

UPDATE: I probably made it sound like I've made games for the Jag. Not yet! Still stuck in 2600 and Genesis land.

[Gummy Bear]

Another example, Unholy Night for SNES cost 30k+ of development only, and look at how it runs.

Oh man...

Bumholey Shite

 

What a wet fart that was.

[+madman]

Rayman 2 on the N64 has all of you beat by a pretty significant margin.

The Famicom bested that by over a decade with TWO shades of green! Must've been a super programmer genius that thought of two different shades of a color!!

 

[+CyranoJ]

But in fact I'm basing my thoughts on Another World, which seems to defy all logic and yet, it exists, it's real.

 

How can that be possible, right?

 

How would a game like that ever materialize if we only considered the things you wrote above?

 

By the way you've said, I guess Another World must have materialized out of thin air, because it surely can't be made.

 

Interesting, isn't it?

 

Sorry, what?

 

Another World is a port from the existing 16-bit Atari ST code base.

 

Sure, the render code was entirely re-written (no simple task by any means, however, all the logic was already completed) In many ways it is no different from the ports I have done, which also have significant improvements over the original versions, that you have bundled up under "8 bit games"

 

Why don't you go and find 10 people and make something as good as AVENGERS: ENDGAME which is, in effect, what you think should happen with Jaguar development? You said yourself that you made your movies on your own over many years at a great cost, but then you expect a team of 10 people to come together to make a AAA game? Apply that logic to your own medium and we'll see you at The Oscars next year.

 

Sorry for being blunt, but this isn't the first time we've had to cover this ground.

 

Imagine if someone with 14 posts who admitted they didn't know what they were talking about turned up on your movie forums asking "​I watch movies! Why is this one crap? Why isn't it Citizen Cane? Is there any hope for a A+ movies from home made film makers at this point? You know, ones that don't look like someone filmed it all with butter smeared all over the lens of their camcorder?"

 

 

[agradeneu]

I don't get it - most gamers, especially retro, are able to appreciate simple 16 bit styled games on much more powerful hardware than the Jaguar - like the Switch, PS Vita or PS4. Why the "16 bit" bashing on Jaguar then????? The system is 25 years old and by no means considered advanced or next gen anymore. It does not need to compete with the newest Playtation or prove it's "64 bit power" - its a meaningless number really. What exactly are 64 bit graphics? A 8 bit throwback game like "Downwell" would be super fun to play on the Jaguar because it IS on the PS4. I would love to play something "simple" like that on the Jaguar.

And please don't underestimate the production values that went into the making of a classic 16 bit A+ title of the 90s. It's nothing you could replicate on the Jaguar like a "walk in the park". Those pixel artists of the 16 bit era were masters of their trade and they got a full time paid job and experience to pull that kind of graphics off. People just need to stop to think in terms of abstract technical numbers. When I play a game like Super Twin Bee on the SNES I just reckon the pixel graphics a masterclass piece of artistry. Or the OST in Super Castlevania 4, the level design in Super Mario World - take your pick. Number of Bits DO NOT matter.

Edited April 14, 2019 by agradeneu

[+Gemintronic]

Meh, just waking up. I thought I'd post something mildly funny. But, I realized: What is bit-itis anyway? Does it really make sense to want PlayStation graphics on an NES? MSX graphics on an Atari 2600? I understand the homebrewer side wanting to push the limits - not really the consumer.

 

I also don't get why you would want yet another version of the same game just on system X instead of Y. Especially when when enhanced versions are already on other readily available platforms.

[pacman000]

Thank y'all for watching the most recent episode of "But can't the Jaguar do more?"

 

Tune in next time for more fun, excitement, & broken dreams.

Edited April 14, 2019 by pacman000

[matthew954]

 

I don't get it - most gamers, especially retro, are able to appreciate simple 16 bit styled games on much more powerful hardware than the Jaguar - like the Switch, PS Vita or PS4. Why the "16 bit" bashing on Jaguar then?????

People did a little too much math!

 

 

I did a video game level for a final project in college back in 2004 (coincidentally just found all of my old materials and drawings). Six months of hard work in a computer lab to build a single level for a first person shooter. Six months of some of the most grueling, yet rewarding work I've ever done. I tried like crazy to get a job in the industry, but the closest I've ever come is working at Wal-Mart selling video games. But from what I've seen of the industry these last several years would make me steer far from triple A titles that are recycled crap from one year to the next. Call of Duty I'm looking at you! Like Cyrano put it, those games are really just a paycheck. Lately when it comes to games either on the modern platforms or retro, I look at the indie titles mostly. I somehow doubt I'll buy into the PS5 or Xbox Scarlet. I collect homebrews now mostly because they are passion projects. Most homebrewers have pushed their respective platforms farther than ever imagined. Whether its creative gameplay or uses of under utilized peripherals. I've seen so far games made for both the NES and the 2600 that out shine anything Nintendo or Atari made back in the day. And made by hobbyists no less. They do their work because it's creative and rewarding to do so. That I'll support with my hard earned cash.

 

With being a prospective homebrewer using NESMaker, I only hope even the best game I ever make comes anywhere near what you all have done!

 

I guess my long winded ramble is just this. Graphics aren't everything. The title doesn't need to be triple A quality. But great and engaging gameplay, and a passion for the work you do.

 

Now I just hope I didn't put anyone to sleep lol.

[JagChris]

3.- Not a lot of programmer want to work on the Jaguar. I've talked to 3 that know the architecture or have done Jag releases, and 2 of them have told me they will not touch it again .

 

 

Candy-asses ?

[+CyranoJ]

Candy-asses

 

Yes, but those "candy-asses" are 100% more qualified than you to comment on this

[Clint Thompson]

I'm working on an A+ title, it'll be ready no later than 2029 at the pace I'm able to make progress on it lol but for the sake of perspective, I started working on a ridiculous Simon-clone at the end of December 2017 as a learning exercise on how to program manipulate the Jaguar into doing what I would like it to do. It's now April of 2019, told myself last year I wanted it done by January and that didn't happen either and haven't touched it in months. Will it ever get finished? Who knows. There's not even that much left to do, probably a few days worth of tweaking but there's a laundry list of reasons excuses as to why I haven't finished it yet. Some days I tell myself what an incredible waste of time it is because it is, other days I find that it can be fun, a mental break from reality and allows me to learn/explore being creative.... but most days I'm just far too busy with life, other hobbies/interests, etc. overall to even think twice about the Jaguar.

 

Then when I do find interest in the Jaguar it's checking out something new someone else created or finding myself veer off into a different direction completely because I've got 2 hours and want to do 8 hours worth of things. Mostly time, that's a huge factor. No one has it and it's far more valuable now than it was 20+ years ago.

 

Also, the Jag has Double Dragon already and it sucks but seriously, just go buy the Arcade machine. If anything it would've been cool to see Konan on the Jag but I'll live with the video footage and embrace a Golden Axe machine from time to time when presented with one to play in person, as should probably be done with Double Dragon.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Clint Thompson