Jump to content

Photo

Atari ST vs. Amiga


753 replies to this topic

#26 Atari_Owl OFFLINE  

Atari_Owl

    Dragonstomper

  • 986 posts

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:37 AM

Project Tempest was supposed to be based on a 300MHz 604e but that went silent a long time ago.

Even Dave Encill at Titan/Cortex doesn't know whether its still going.

I suspect that the Coldfire and CT60 projects are the only realistic ones, now. But if i'm wrong i'd love to hear about it.

There used to be some webpages about it on fmax.atari.org but they've been taken down.

#27 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

Heaven/TQA

    Quadrunner

  • 8,965 posts
  • Location:Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:17 AM

@ all

why the hell are we so addicted to "oldschool" machines????

#28 Atari_Owl OFFLINE  

Atari_Owl

    Dragonstomper

  • 986 posts

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:32 AM

Because they're MUCH more fun :D :D
And more friendly to use also

And because we're nostalgic for the glory days of ...(insert childhood/adolesence here) and not the soulless PC dominance of today where apart from games everybody has a computer 10 times to powerful for everything they need to do, filled to the brim with Terabytes of bloatware and utterly without character or heart :)

#29 Sauron OFFLINE  

Sauron

    River Patroller

  • 4,701 posts
  • In the land of Mordor.
  • Location:North of the Black Sea

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:35 AM

@ all

why the hell are we so addicted to "oldschool" machines????


Because they're fun, unlike today's modern PCs. :sad: I don't know too many people who look back at their 286 system with fondness.

#30 Tempest ONLINE  

Tempest

    Your Imperious Leader

  • Topic Starter
  • 22,977 posts
  • Location:The Ethereal Plane of Atrii

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:42 AM

Because they're fun, unlike today's modern PCs.  I don't know too many people who look back at their 286 system with fondness.


Laugh all you want, but some of the best times I ever had were on my friends IBM PCjr. Was that thing even a 286?

Tempest

#31 Sauron OFFLINE  

Sauron

    River Patroller

  • 4,701 posts
  • In the land of Mordor.
  • Location:North of the Black Sea

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:45 AM

Because they're fun, unlike today's modern PCs.  I don't know too many people who look back at their 286 system with fondness.


Laugh all you want, but some of the best times I ever had were on my friends IBM PCjr. Was that thing even a 286?

Tempest


No, but it wasn't necessarily a real PC either. :D

#32 Atari_Owl OFFLINE  

Atari_Owl

    Dragonstomper

  • 986 posts

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:58 AM

Think it was an 8088.

But each to their own.
I know somebody who still has their 'Jupiter Ace' and a guy with an 'Acorn Electron'

I just wish i still had my old Sharp MZ80A.

#33 emkay OFFLINE  

emkay

    Quadrunner

  • 7,107 posts
  • What's up?
  • Location:Holy Grail ;)

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:30 PM

@ all

why the hell are we so addicted to "oldschool" machines????



You shall not speak for others ;)

Let me explain, what I have to do with "old" Computers ;)

Take a look at the ATARI 8-Bits... you see the most powerfull computer of its time...
Take a look at the AMIGA.... oops... the same... ;)

Take a look at the ST .... oh oh ... but worthy a good note in CPU Power ;)


Take a look at the PC ....
High power more than 1000 times faster than the already mentioned systems.. The graphics-cards are the fastest this days...


And now the question: Why is that 1000x faster PC only capable to show "somehow" better graphics and sound. Without the 3d acceleration the Games on the actual PC would have the double (maybe quadruple) resolution in hor. & ver. than the AMIGA ECS....
But without that 1000* faster CPU the Games would be ugly... even today....


Example: An ATARI 800 (1978) scaled to 32 Bit (1992) and Games like C&C: Generals were possible in 1992...

THE PC is a resource-waster and really no fun machine...

#34 desiv OFFLINE  

desiv

    Stargunner

  • 1,639 posts
  • Location:Salem, Oregon

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:57 PM

With the Amiga:

The error was called a "Guru Meditation".
Some of the motherboards were labeled "B52 - Rock Lobster"

The custom chips had names.....

You knew the names of the designers and tech studs. (RJ, Jay, Dave, etc)

You don't get that kind of KUAL with a PC today....

It was the atmosphere and community... Not the lemming mentality of today...

You just had to be there....

desiv

(I know it was the same for ST and other old systems, but I had the Amiga. Don't know the "features" of the other systems of the time.)

#35 Atari-Jess OFFLINE  

Atari-Jess

    River Patroller

  • 4,243 posts
  • Location:Toronto

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 7:52 PM

I dont know if anyone has answered this yet but...

The ACP (atari coldfire project) is/was/cakies an effort to bring the
Atari ST platform to Motorolas coldfire processor.

Id like to help but Im too much of a dunce right now to help.

Id just like to be able to buy one but at a projected cost of 1000 euros
and with that amount also creeping up to crazy value I wont be able
to afford it even if it does come out!

www.acp.atari.org
or is it
www.atari.org/acp

I cant remember. Doesn't matter you can figure it out.

#36 Lord-Chaos OFFLINE  

Lord-Chaos

    Dragonstomper

  • 635 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:53 PM

I bought a 1040 STE in 1990 and my brother an AMIGA 500.

Most of the games made in the 80s/ealry 90s were made on the ATARI ST - Bitmap Brothers games for example - and so they looked the same on both systems.

But the music was better on the AMIGA , although some games used digitized music , especially French games like Captain Blood or Purple Saturn Day.Some games supported MIDI (Sierra games) , some had MOD-players (Turrican title ,Pipemania title) , but most games used the ST soundchip...

In the 90s , more games were designed for the AMIGA and the ST versions were not as good (Beast for example) , BUT the ST was no games-computer , so it was a great bonus to be able to play games almost as good as on the AMIGA - and the ST was cheaper.
And PCs in 1990 were really bad (games in EGA/CGA) or you had to be extremely rich to buy a good PC...

And you could use programs like Calamus , That´s Write , good CAD programs , lots of programming languages and of course MIDI software ...

Later I got a MEGA STE which I still use today.It´s a 16Mhz machine with 1.44 MB drive , 2MB and 48MB HD , and the STE hardware.

I also bought an AMIGA 1200 in 1996 with a 030/68882 40Mhz card , 10 MB , a 340MB HD , CDROM and 1942 Multiscan monitor which allows flicker-free 1280*512 resolution.

The AMIGA 1200 cannot be compared to a 68000 ST/STE , it can only be compared to the Falcon.

I think the AMIGA was/is great for graphics (some of the AMIGA graphics programs are better for low-color stuff than expensive PC programs) , raytracing , video /Genlock stuff and for making music without MIDI (with Protracker/Soundtracker,OctaMED,DigiBooster etc.).

The ST is better for word-processing , CAD , DTP , MIDI Stuff , programming...

AFAIK it´s possible to emulate an ST almost 100% on an AMIGA.There is an old program for 68000 AMIGAs that only requires a ST ROM and most ST programs will run , but I doubt that many games work since some games use programming techniques like sync-scrolling or eliminate some of the borders (some demos show full overscan on ST).

I think ATARI had a good computer for working with.It´s far better than a PC from its time - remember the 8088 XTs with 5.25" drives in the 80s ? But ATARI made some mistakes and the cheap PCs took over the market.
In Germany , many companies used STs or TTs in the 80s/early 90s since they were better and cheaper than PCs.And musicians loved the ST with Cubase , too !

Same with the AMIGA : One of the best games machines , but lost against the PC (and maybe the consoles) because AGA etc. came to late and most companies made disk-only ECS games.

Thimo

#37 lais OFFLINE  

lais

    Moonsweeper

  • 265 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:07 AM

I dont know if anyone has answered this yet but...

The ACP (atari coldfire project) is/was/cakies an effort to bring the
Atari ST platform to Motorolas coldfire processor.

Id like to help but Im too much of a dunce right now to help.

Id just like to be able to buy one but at a projected cost of 1000 euros
and with that amount also creeping up to crazy value I wont be able
to afford it even if it does come out!

www.acp.atari.org
or is it
www.atari.org/acp

I cant remember. Doesn't matter you can figure it out.


It's http://acp.atari.org and the 1,000 EUR is an absolute worst-case estimate because they don't want to give people an under-estimate which they will then have to honour and lose money as a result.

#38 AtariDude OFFLINE  

AtariDude

    River Patroller

  • 4,260 posts
  • Playing Freedom Planet on my 27 Inch iMac
  • Location:Miami, Florida

Posted Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:17 AM

I have only the Atari ST to compare against the Amiga. I used to go to a computer show that had a Amiga user group. They used to have the coolest demos when I would go to the show and they had a vast library of programs. I was always impressed by the things that the Amiga was capable of doing.

However you had to pay for that advantage. The Atari ST offered me what I wanted in a computer and at a great price. It is too bad that it was more popular in Europe than it was in the US. Damn Tramiels! :x

If only they spent more money on advertising. Maybe the ST might have gained some ground. And why oh why did they not release the PC compatiable ST. I remember seeing it as a prototype. Releasing it would have helped Atari's bottom line and maybe they would have survived.

#39 Ayreon ONLINE  

Ayreon

    Moonsweeper

  • 287 posts

Posted Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:17 PM

When it comes to demo's, i don't think there are many effects the amiga can do that the ST can't do. ST coders have come a long way. ST demo coders are kinda technical coders i think. Pushing the machine over the limits, while amiga demo coders started to focus on design in a far earlier stage. If you look at the ST demo Dark side of the Spoon by Unlimited Matrix it uses a lot of full screen, syncscrolling and tracker music at the same time. A technical highlight for sure. But if you don't apreciate that it looks kinda boring compared to well designed demo's.

#40 desiv OFFLINE  

desiv

    Stargunner

  • 1,639 posts
  • Location:Salem, Oregon

Posted Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:10 PM

Question: What was the actual price difference????

I remember in 1988 when I got my Amiga 500, I was in college and put it on my NEW credit card, and it just fit. I think it was $450 or so...

That was a plain Amiga 500 with no expansion.
So: 7.14 Mhz 68000 processor
512 Kb Chip RAM
No Hard drive
Built in floppy
No monitor

(I got the 1084S later.)

So, in 88 when the A500 was selling for under $500, what type of ST could you get for similar money? Or, how much would a comparable (512Kb RAM) ST have cost???

Or, put another way, "How much more Ramen noodels and Pizza could I have bought while in college?" :-)

Just wondering...

desiv

#41 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

Heaven/TQA

    Quadrunner

  • 8,965 posts
  • Location:Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Posted Sat Jul 12, 2003 2:39 AM

ULM rocks! "i sing yeah...i i sing yeah....oh baby.... i sing yeah...."

http://www7.in.tum.d...ataridemos.html

http://www.back2roots.org/News/

hve

#42 emkay OFFLINE  

emkay

    Quadrunner

  • 7,107 posts
  • What's up?
  • Location:Holy Grail ;)

Posted Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:48 AM

When it comes to demo's, i don't think there are many effects the amiga can do that the ST can't do.  ST coders have come a long way. ST demo coders are kinda technical coders i think. Pushing the machine over the limits, while amiga demo coders started to focus on design in a far earlier stage.



ST coders hit the ST to about 200% of its capabilities, because they counted on the CPUs speed of 8MHz. The timing to create more colors or Digi-Sounds was allways given.

The AMIGA has this capabilities cheap at hand. By similar tricking on the Chipset abilities, it was possible to reach 4 Channel HIFI-quality and 4096 colors at 640*512 resolution. Even by this ST outpowering by the ST CODERS, how would they gain those specs on the "normal" ST?

#43 lais OFFLINE  

lais

    Moonsweeper

  • 265 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted Sat Jul 12, 2003 8:59 AM

Question:  What was the actual price difference????

I remember in 1988 when I got my Amiga 500, I was in college and put it on my NEW credit card, and it just fit.  I think it was $450 or so...


At the peak of the ST's popularity in the UK, the A500 from Silica Shop (and most places) was £399 while the 520STFM was £299. Generally speaking the Amiga was £100 more expensive, but this changed in the early to mid-1990s, where we had 520STEs for £199 to £249 (used to be £299, and £399 for any one of the 1040STE bundles), and the Amigas had come down in price with new models like the A600 going for £249 to £299.

#44 lais OFFLINE  

lais

    Moonsweeper

  • 265 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted Sat Jul 12, 2003 9:08 AM

When it comes to demo's, i don't think there are many effects the amiga can do that the ST can't do.  ST coders have come a long way. ST demo coders are kinda technical coders i think. Pushing the machine over the limits, while amiga demo coders started to focus on design in a far earlier stage.



ST coders hit the ST to about 200% of its capabilities, because they counted on the CPUs speed of 8MHz. The timing to create more colors or Digi-Sounds was allways given.

The AMIGA has this capabilities cheap at hand. By similar tricking on the Chipset abilities, it was possible to reach 4 Channel HIFI-quality and 4096 colors at 640*512 resolution. Even by this ST outpowering by the ST CODERS, how would they gain those specs on the "normal" ST?


What is "hi-fi" quality? The Amiga and STE for that matter could only manage 8-bit resolution, that's more like pocket radio quality (the STE is said to have the edge in sample replay due to the 50 KHz maximum sample rate and lack of Amiga's low-pass filter). The Amiga didn't need tricks to get 4-channel sound, it's in the hardware, same for its ability to play 4-channel tracker modules, since the hardware can use a variable sample rate on each hardware channel it's easy to create a musical scale. On the other hand, in machines like the STE and Falcon where each hardware channel has only very limited preset sample rates, the sound has to be pre-processed (resampled) to achieve tracker replay. The same has to be done on the Amiga in order to achieve more than the standard hardware channels.

#45 Ayreon ONLINE  

Ayreon

    Moonsweeper

  • 287 posts

Posted Sun Jul 13, 2003 3:35 AM

As far as my memory recalls, the STE could handle 16 bit samples. Ofcourse the DAC's are 8-bit so using 16 bit samples looks like it's just a waste of memory. Still some people say that using 16 bit samples does sound better.

emkay wrote:
Ayreon wrote:
When it comes to demo's, i don't think there are many effects the amiga can do that the ST can't do. ST coders have come a long way. ST demo coders are kinda technical coders i think. Pushing the machine over the limits, while amiga demo coders started to focus on design in a far earlier stage.



ST coders hit the ST to about 200% of its capabilities, because they counted on the CPUs speed of 8MHz. The timing to create more colors or Digi-Sounds was allways given.

The AMIGA has this capabilities cheap at hand. By similar tricking on the Chipset abilities, it was possible to reach 4 Channel HIFI-quality and 4096 colors at 640*512 resolution. Even by this ST outpowering by the ST CODERS, how would they gain those specs on the "normal" ST?



ST coders can never make the ST out perform the Amiga in certain areas. All i tried to say is that virtually every demo effect done on the Amiga has been done on the ST eventhough people at first thought it would be impossible. The ST 8MHz cpu gives the coders a little advantage over the 7.15Mhz of the Amiga. A , not even, 1Mhz isn't that much of an advantage. The Amiga's costum chips make up more then they lose with that 1 Mhz.

As for the 4096 colors, i believe the game Leaving Terramis by Thalion shows pics that use more than 4096 colors on a plain ST. Ofcourse not at a 640*512 res. http://cus.org.uk/~a...is/teramis.html[url]

With trickery the Amiga could do more than 4 channel music. 8 channel mods are widely used. And i guess there are programs that use more.

On the STE there are a few demo's floating around using 16 channel 12.5 , 25Khz and 50Khz musics. [url="http://www.pennskog.com/niclas/atari/unit17/"]http://www.pennskog....s/atari/unit17/

#46 lais OFFLINE  

lais

    Moonsweeper

  • 265 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted Sun Jul 13, 2003 5:08 AM

As far as my memory recalls, the STE could handle 16 bit samples. Ofcourse the DAC's are 8-bit so using 16 bit samples looks like it's just a waste of memory. Still some people say that using 16 bit samples does sound better.


Any computer can handle any bit depth internally but what counts as far as the machine's end capability is concerned is the output stage, in the STE's case, 8-bit. Yes, using samples originated in 16-bit does give better quality but not worth it for the massive increase in storage requirement. In fact, I have a sample player on the STE that will play direct-from-disk, even 16-bit stereo audio! All it does is drop the MSB from each 16-bit sample frame. I tried this out by dumping audio CDs to the hard disk on my Mega STE from a CD-ROM drive.

The ST 8MHz cpu gives the coders a little advantage over the 7.15Mhz of the Amiga. A , not even, 1Mhz isn't that much of an advantage. The Amiga's costum chips make up more then they lose with that 1 Mhz.


The ST's clock speed advantage was most apparent in 3D games, where the Amiga custom chips were of little advantage. Every vector-based game I've seen on the 16-bit machines was faster or smoother on the ST. If you wanted tracker music with realistic sounding sampled sound at the same time without game slow-down, then the Amiga sound chip could help, but not in making the 3D any faster.

With trickery the Amiga could do more than 4 channel music. 8 channel mods are widely used. And i guess there are programs that use more.

On the STE there are a few demo's floating around using  16 channel 12.5 , 25Khz and 50Khz musics.


Yes, the Amiga was fortunate in that having four hardware channels with variable sample rate was very handy for making reasonable sounding music. Ultimately you can only have so many hardware channels before it becomes expensive. Professional equipment works on the re-sampling and mixing techniqe as well. For example, the audio card in my PC, a CreamWare Pulsar II, has only two built-in DAC channels, but with six parallel DSP chips pumping out a peak in excess of 1 Gigaflop on the back end, it can simulate a small studio's worth of instruments and mix them down to two channels for output

By the way, Ayreon, I notice from the Jaguar forum that you were at JagFest UK. Were you the guy who bought a Jaguar CD-ROM unit from 16/32?

#47 Ayreon ONLINE  

Ayreon

    Moonsweeper

  • 287 posts

Posted Sun Jul 13, 2003 6:01 AM

Nah.. already had a Jag CD. I was the guy with the Samsung N504 Nuon player. The bald dutchy :D


When it comes to raw calculating power (3D, fractals, etc. ) the ST was faster. But the ST then has no or not much time left for extra's. While on the Amiga you could use the costum chips to put in some sprites, rasters, scrollers or whatever. So a demo/game would look more impressive and/ or better designed. The ST can do everything the Amiga can , thanks to the ST demo scene. The ST does have hardware limitations compared to the Amiga that can't be over come.
That's kinda what i wanted to say all along, but my choice of words are kinda lame.

#48 lais OFFLINE  

lais

    Moonsweeper

  • 265 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted Sun Jul 13, 2003 8:33 AM

Nah.. already had a Jag CD. I was the guy with the Samsung N504 Nuon player. The bald dutchy :D


Ah, the other Mr Demming?

#49 Ayreon ONLINE  

Ayreon

    Moonsweeper

  • 287 posts

Posted Sun Jul 13, 2003 1:57 PM

SSssstt That is.. erh was.. a secret 8)

#50 DracIsBack OFFLINE  

DracIsBack

    River Patroller

  • 4,563 posts
  • Location:Toronto, Canada

Posted Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:24 AM

Some threads never die!

In terms of technical stuff, I'd go with the Amiga too. Not that the ST "sucked" in the grand scheme of computers of the day, but it wasn't quite on part with what the Amiga had.

That being said, I remember being wowed by the ST's graphics and sound when I first laid eyes on that system. Saw a SPACE ACE demo and that old Atari ship demo and went ... wow!

Keep in mind something else - this was the era of PC's with CGA graphics, the bleep internal speaker, the Commodore 64, the Apple II and the black and white Mac.

Against the Amiga, the ST didn't stand out. Against everything else, it absolutely did!




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users