Poll: Better graphics -- Hardware upgrade development

[analmux]

Me and Jetboot Jack are working on a graphics upgrade for the Atari 8bit platform.

 

It will simply provide more colors per rasterline, without any software tricks like Display List Interrupts or T.I.P. graphics modes:

256 colors in 80*192 res.

80 colors in 160*192 res.

16 colors in 320*192 res.

 

I will soon give examples of the possibilities.

 

It will be based on a second Antic and Gtia circuit in an external unit, to be connected to the parallel-bus. And a few changes must be made to the atari. It will get an extra connector.

 

It will be easy to program, like the original Antic.

 

The extra colors can be switched on and off, so the new system will be downwards compatible. There might also be a third graphics type, which shows two independent screens, like a multilayer display (SNES), the second screen behind the first screen. Then you can create parallax-effects or supersprites, and 10 independent players/missiles.

 

 

We would like to know who of you would like to have a video upgrade, so we can make an estimation of how many units we must make.

 

If you are interested, and you're running a PAL machine then vote 'PAL'

If you are interested, and you're running a NTSC machine then vote 'NTSC'

 

Otherwise don't vote anything.

 

 

If you have any questions, then be free to ask them in this thread.

 

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mux

[+Allan]

"NTSC"

 

Here's a first vote for a NTSC version.

 

In the 320 *192 mode, would there still be artifacting like in the graphics 8 mode?

 

Allan

[analmux]

In the 320 *192 mode, would there still be artifacting like in the graphics 8 mode?

 

Yes. It's still graphics 8, but now you have 80 or 160 color-attribute cells every rasterline.

 

The video system is then divided into two circuits.

The first circuit shows the shades (low nybble of a setcolor)

The second circuit shows the colors (high nybble of setcolor)

 

When the first circuit is set to graphics 9 (shades only) and the second circuit is set to graphics 11 (colors only), every pixel can have a shade AND a color at once. In this way you have a true 256color 80*192 display.

 

When now the first circuit is set to graphics 15, and the setcolors of the first circuit are:

 

setcolor 0,0,4

setcolor 1,0,8

setcolor 2,0,12

setcolor 4,0,0

 

You have still 80 color-attribute cells, but you can create a 160*192 display with 64 possible colors. When the first circuit is set to charmode graphics 12, then you can set an additional shade (arbitrary):

 

f.e.

setcolor 3,0,6

 

and you can create a 160*192 display with 80 possible colors. This means 16 colors in 5 different shades.

 

When both circuits are set to graphics 12, then the first circuit can show 5 shades, and the second circuit can show 5 colors, which results in 25 colors.

 

The same applies to Players and Missiles.

 

When mixing colors of PM-pairs with

 

poke 623,33

 

the first circuit can show 3 shades of PMG, the second shows 3 colors, which results in 9color Players/Missiles.

 

the first circuit is just the usual display, the second circuit is reachable by a memory window in the IO-area ($D600-$D7FF)

 

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mux

[analmux]

By the way,

 

In the Hardware forum I opened a topic ("do you really want better graphics?") a few days ago, in which I explained a few things about the upgrade.

 

I will soon post new pictures which illustrate the idea.

 

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mux

[Heaven/TQA]

PAL!

 

count on me! i want to have these board...

 

parallax... overlays like snes... hmmm...

 

hve

[twh/f2]

PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL! PAL!

 

twh

[Goochman]

My vote is NTSC - however,

Im not sure Id buy anyhting unless software was lined up that uses this - Im not an 8bit programmer so I wouldnt be able to do anything with it.

 

I bought a XEP80 on some promises a long time ago.....

 

Once bittten twice shy

[analmux]

We might begin with selling limited editions (say 50 pieces). When things are developed, and more people would like the upgrade we can always make more.

 

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mux

[analmux]

Here are some pictures I promised.

 

Picture 1 shows how the sprites must be handled.

 

The upper three are generated by circuit 2, the lower three by circuit 1.

In the middle, where they overlap you see the resulting graphics. In fact this means that you can make sprites with a higher color-resolution.

 

So when you just use sprites of circ. 1 you see 'transparant' sprites. This means that where they are used, the 2nd circuit (which only shows colors) output is mixed with the sprites.

 

The other way round:

When you just use sprites of circuit 2 you also see 'transparant' sprites. They again are mixed with the first circuits shade output.

 

In other words: Players and Missiles of the first circuit don't have priority over graphics of the second circuit, and vice versa.

 

 

Picture 2 shows some 64 color 160*192 res. graphics that can be displayed with the video extension.

 

Picture 3 shows the process of building the graphics:

3a: this is generated by circuit 1, that is the main circuit on the atari itself.

3b: this is generated by circuit 2 in the extension unit. It shows the color-attribute cells.

3c: the result of combining 3a and 3b.

 

 

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Another remark:

The second video in the external extension unit has its own memory and databus, so doesn't need DMA, so doesn't slow down the CPU.

 

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mux

[AtariNerd]

I cast a vote for an NTSC module.

[ATARIeric]

if you make limitied quanities, please count me in, i love this 8bit stuff , please, just ask sunmark i will get it from you

[Sheddy]

Here are some pictures I promised.

 

Picture 1 shows how the sprites must be handled.

 

The upper three are generated by circuit 2, the lower three by circuit 1.

In the middle, where they overlap you see the resulting graphics. In fact this means that you can make sprites with a higher color-resolution.

 

So when you just use sprites of circ. 1 you see 'transparant' sprites. This means that where they are used, the 2nd circuit (which only shows colors) output is mixed with the sprites.

 

The other way round:

When you just use sprites of circuit 2 you also see 'transparant' sprites. They again are mixed with the first circuits shade output.

 

In other words: Players and Missiles of the first circuit don't have priority over graphics of the second circuit, and vice versa.

 

 

Picture 2 shows some 64 color 160*192 res. graphics that can be displayed with the video extension.

 

Picture 3 shows the process of building the graphics:

3a: this is generated by circuit 1, that is the main circuit on the atari itself.

3b: this is generated by circuit 2 in the extension unit. It shows the color-attribute cells.

3c: the result of combining 3a and 3b.

 

 

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Another remark:

The second video in the external extension unit has its own memory and databus, so doesn't need DMA, so doesn't slow down the CPU.

 

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mux

 

Very neat, but spooky on picture 3 -

I've just started messing about trying to do pics in exactly the same modes but on a standard atari, interlaced. Maybe it won't come off - but if I end up using it in a game, it would be easy to enhance and move over to this great upgrade.

 

Oops, nearly forgot - put me down for a PAL version

[Dracon]

Analmux, I have some questions:

 

- how many Euros does it cost (give the final price), and

if I already got original additional ANTIC & GTIA chips, would it

be cheaper ???

 

- will you publish (in some time) a precise scheme and FAQ on building this upgrade ?

Because it would help spreading this cool idea among interested people. Do you remember stereo upgrade? Nowadays it is quite popular (at Polish atari scene, for example), thanks to 'unhiding' all details by its creators...

[emkay]

Im not sure Id buy anyhting unless software was lined up that uses this - Im not an 8bit programmer so I wouldnt be able to do anything with it.

 

I bought a XEP80 on some promises a long time ago.....

 

 

The XEP80 was a real enhancement to the XL, belonging to its own memory... While displaying anything and no bytes are transfered, it does not affect anything of the CPU-powers...with additional switched of ANTIC, the cpu can allways work at fastest speeds.

For example...: On an 8-Bit with the XEP80 integrated, it would have been possible to build editors with visual graphics for Softsynth...

 

But, after the XEP80 there came no software that was worthy to talk about.

IMO Synfile+ and Syncalc were the best Office-applications. Were there ever upgrades done for the XEP?

[analmux]

@ Dracon

 

how many Euros does it cost (give the final price)

We'll give an estimated price soon. But this will be a non-profit project, so the price won't be too high. We still have to worry about the number of units we will produce, and then find someone that wants to produce them for a reasonable price.

 

if I already got original additional ANTIC & GTIA chips, would it

be cheaper ???

Yes. But the Antic/Gtia chips aren't too expensive so why would you sacrifice another Atari? (only if it's broken?)

 

will you publish (in some time) a precise scheme and FAQ on building this upgrade ?

When the beta-version is tested and working, I will publish a complete scheme for people that want to make the upgrade themselves. I'll also write FAQs about the building, and off course the programming of the unit, so great software can be developed for it by the coders.

 

Do you remember stereo upgrade?

I've heard of it, but don't know much about it.

 

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mux

[Goochman]

Im not sure Id buy anyhting unless software was lined up that uses this - Im not an 8bit programmer so I wouldnt be able to do anything with it.

 

I bought a XEP80 on some promises a long time ago.....

 

 

The XEP80 was a real enhancement to the XL, belonging to its own memory... While displaying anything and no bytes are transfered, it does not affect anything of the CPU-powers...with additional switched of ANTIC, the cpu can allways work at fastest speeds.

For example...: On an 8-Bit with the XEP80 integrated, it would have been possible to build editors with visual graphics for Softsynth...

 

But, after the XEP80 there came no software that was worthy to talk about.

IMO Synfile+ and Syncalc were the best Office-applications. Were there ever upgrades done for the XEP?

 

No........kinda my point here - This sounds and looks wonderful - But.......what would this investment buy me? Would we see a slew of new and innovative games for the 8bit series based upon this upgrade?

[emkay]

 

No........kinda my point here - This sounds and looks wonderful - But.......what would this investment buy me?  

 

 

Well ... the promises on the XEP80 were "wonderful" too.

Did the investment anything "buy" you?

 

 

Would we see a slew of new and innovative games for the 8bit series based upon this upgrade?

 

Are you really expecting new games by this upgrade?

Coders are not able to put fast games in Charmode with PM overlay (MCS)... and now the double of screendata would be necessary.

[Heaven/TQA]

i would buy the stuff just to have it and play with it for my own personal enjoyment... :8

 

so mainly for coders it's a nice playground... but we should not discuss this here as this is a poll thread...

[TMR]

i don't have access to the hardware because at the moment i'm working exclusively in an emulator. However, i look at it pretty much in the same way i see the Super CPU for the C64 or a SID card for the Plus/4; it's too much a niche market for me to support personally. i'm an egotist, i want as many people as possible to see my code! To that end, i write for a stock system rather than relying on external hardware.

 

This is, of course, a personal view and your mileage is going to vary...

[Goochman]

 

No........kinda my point here - This sounds and looks wonderful - But.......what would this investment buy me?  

 

 

Well ... the promises on the XEP80 were "wonderful" too.

Did the investment anything "buy" you?

 

 

Would we see a slew of new and innovative games for the 8bit series based upon this upgrade?

 

Are you really expecting new games by this upgrade?

Coders are not able to put fast games in Charmode with PM overlay (MCS)... and now the double of screendata would be necessary.

 

Emkay - Im not sure if you agree with me or not?? But I believe we are in total agreement - I bought a XEP80 on promises of new stuff coming - all I got was Atariwriter 80!

 

Thats my hesitation with this project............Im not an 8bit coder anymore (and was a lightweight one at that )

 

I would love to see this kind of effort into producing some new interesting stuff - Ethernet, IMpossible Mission, Bubble Bobble, Wolfenstien 3D, etc....

[analmux]

Thats my hesitation with this project............Im not an 8bit coder anymore (and was a lightweight one at that

 

Okay, but you don't have to order one right now. You can still wait till programs and games are developed for them. We might produce more later, after the first edition, so it's not the end of the world.

 

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mux

[emkay]

 

Emkay - Im not sure if you agree with me or not??  But I believe we are in total agreement - I bought a XEP80 on promises of new stuff coming - all I got was Atariwriter 80!

 

 

We are in total agreement.

 

 

I would love to see this kind of effort into producing some new interesting stuff - Ethernet, IMpossible Mission, Bubble Bobble, Wolfenstien 3D, etc....

 

Wolfenstein and other games (and Ethernet) would be possible by large RAM amounts... The double ANTIC/GTIA will make more RAM needed, but it will not advance anything for creating such games...

[Dracon]

ANTIC chip usually "steals" some processor's time, so what would be if there are two ANTICS on the board ??? Isn't such Atari 8-bit start getting slower and slower ????

[Bryan]

ANTIC chip usually "steals" some processor's time, so what would be if there are two ANTICS on the board ???  Isn't such Atari 8-bit start getting slower and slower ????      

 

He's talking about giving the 2nd Antic its own RAM, so it won't slow down the main bus.

 

-Bry

[analmux]

@ Emkay

 

Wolfenstein and other games (and Ethernet) would be possible by large RAM amounts... The double ANTIC/GTIA will make more RAM needed, but it will not advance anything for creating such games...

 

The Second display will have its own 64 kBytes of Static RAM to store a huge amount of displaylists, graphics, fonts and PM-bases. It's easy and fast to program.

 

@ Dracon

 

ANTIC chip usually "steals" some processor's time, so what would be if there are two ANTICS on the board ??? Isn't such Atari 8-bit start getting slower and slower ???

 

Nope, because the 2nd Antic isn't connected to the Atari's main bus. It has its own 64 kB SRAM on a local (separated) bus, so steals no DMA cycles. I've explained this further on the Hardware forum.

 

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mux