emkay Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Once more I try to suggest why softwareenhancing is more necessary than hardwareupgrades. So look at the following pictures... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 Please take note about the following: 1) When I created the MCS Picture I didn't know the original 2) There is no color changed by DLI in the MCS standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 er... That pretty ugly emkay... The all purple one is at least not so stomach churning as green and pink sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 er... That pretty ugly emkay... The all purple one is at least not so stomach churning as green and pink sTeVE I know, Flimbo's Quest looks ugly to you... so your judgement does not hit me too hard Perhaps you do a picture that does fit into your taste on good looking graphics ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 30, 2003 Author Share Posted August 30, 2003 Why not focus on MCS and scrolling. I think it's not that hard. For simple MCS you can turn off DMA and write to the PMGRAF registers by a DLI (f.e. every 16 rasterlines). In this way you can move the PM vertically very fast (you don't have to move the data in the PM-base!). Then set up a display list that wraps around in 1 kB (graphics 12 charmode!): Horizontal and Vertical scrolling (& Diagonal ). It will need some logic, but it must work. ----- mux I see you got the point of the MCS Idea. Your ideas are very well too. My most concernes are in changing colors by DLIs. You know, the line 0 of a charmode is high in DMA usage. In every 3rd charmode line you have to actualize the charbase. So how many registers can be changed by DLI in line 0 ? By using a "kernal" you can prepare registers in the 7th line of the previous charmode-line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 30, 2003 Share Posted August 30, 2003 Instead of jumping from sample pictures to scrolling, how about a still screen game that can use the mode properly - proof of technology an' all that...? i've got some overlays in Reaxion A8 but i don't believe that's technically MCS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Emaky, Personal taste aside the green and pink picture does not demonstrate a good use of color sense or tonal balance period... I have MANY examples of my preferences for artwork quality, just browse my website (and no don't mention the underground Beast shots) if you crave old 8bit material, or any of my later work for Microprose, Eidos, Disney, Crystal Dynamics and more for better examples... And yes Flimbo's quest is ugly -- screenshot below demostrates the poor palette choices -- enough with the salmon pink/red already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord-Chaos Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Instead of jumping from sample pictures to scrolling, how about a still screen game that can use the mode properly - proof of technology an' all that...? i've got some overlays in Reaxion A8 but i don't believe that's technically MCS. I´d recommend a graphic-adventure game like "Guild of "Thieves".Pictures are shown in the first 1/2 - 2/3 of the screen and the rest for text window.Maybe convert the original ATARI ST artwork and show how this game should look on the ATARI 8 Bit (The 8 Bit port uses ugly 4-color graphics). Or an action-game limited to 1 screen , something like Donkey Kong or Miner 2049er , Mr Robot etc. etc. Or a role-playing game like "The Bard´s Tale" , which shows pictures of creatures in a window of about 100*100 pixels in size on the AMIGA. Maybe a tile-based rpg similar to Japanese NES/Sega Master System rpgs would work,too or a strategy-game like Shining Force on the Mega Drive/Genesis or the Game Gear Shining Force. I think the ATARI 8 Bit could display graphics similar to NES , Master system or Game Gear. Thimo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Why doesn't emkay just make a DRUID title screen that looks like the C64 one -- MCS will be demonstrated, the world will fall at his feet, the A8 will be able to hold its head up against obsolete 15 year old video game systems from Japan as well as it can with obsolete 21 year old computers from America too! Why do all these discussions go on and on with NO substance to back them up -- where is the demonstration of these techniques, where are the executable files?? One single screen simple word game and some screenshots that may just be doctored Photshop images?? Weeks ago I asked a question on these baords about some really exciting and working C64 techiques for creating still images -- that discussion got bogged down in MCS. Then someone comes along with some new hardware ideas (which I was keen on) and emaky rained on that parade -- out with the fabled MCS again... Heck even when someone shared GED, MCS came back into town to try and get its face in the lights again... I am increasilngly disillusioned with this scene, all talk and no action, at least I've tried over the years to get some stuff out there (failure maybe, but I tried!)... sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 And yes Flimbo's quest is ugly -- screenshot below demostrates the poor palette choices -- enough with the salmon pink/red already! I don't think it looks that bad. I like it better than most A8 platformers where the whole palette is shades of the same color (is that a C64 pic?). -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Its C64... sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Why do all these discussions go on and on with NO substance to back them up -- where is the demonstration of these techniques, where are the executable files?? NO substance? TMR used overlay in Reaxion .... and take a look at the C.G.M. Demo... These graphics are done in a stylish way, you have never seen in games even from big softwarehouses. One single screen simple word game and some screenshots that may just be doctored Photshop images?? ??? Weeks ago I asked a question on these baords about some really exciting and working C64 techiques for creating still images -- that discussion got bogged down in MCS. Because MCS is THE synonym for optimized maximum colors at the available 160x192(240) of the original ATARI machine. And it is the only way to create C64 gamestyle graphics with the available hardware. On the other hand... you still have GED for creating pictures as an alternative. And it is final. So no one stops you to create pictures with it. Then someone comes along with some new hardware ideas (which I was keen on) and emaky rained on that parade -- out with the fabled MCS again... 1) After 25 years the 8-Bits are not coded an optimized way. 2) Every Emulation has big errors in it. 3) HW enhancements will take time and not everyone will get it. Building this HW-Extension into emulators will make only sense, if the emulation is working correctly.You will get latency problems with this too when moving sprites or scrolling the screen. In addition not everyone will ever get the HW-Extension... there would be a proper emulation necessary to create software for this...even this seems not to be done in the next 100 years MCS-style graphics with 24 DLIs are the best solution this time and for great looking games. And they are not timing dependend, and they are possible on the todays emulators too. I am increasilngly disillusioned with this scene, all talk and no action, at least I've tried over the years to get some stuff out there (failure maybe, but I tried!)... sTeVE YOU are disillusioned? As I wrote in other threads ... the MCS technique was possible on the ATARI 400 in 1978... But no softwarehouse (and was it the biggest one) did try to move the dirt under the fingernail to create tools for optimized graphics, or putted such pictures into Games for the title screen. Sceners were whining "too complex" "not possible" I created all tools myself and converted (and drawed) the pictures on the original machine. It was this "disillusion" that putted my XL for 12 years onto the Attic. Today .... with computers that are 10000x faster no one created a perfect tool for this on the "comfortable" PC environment. Heck... I started going on using the XL again, because of the IDEA of a "Moorhuhn" game last year. Compared to the gained consense there were 5 minutes gone. So while C64 users still "flying to the moon" , there still exists no tool for creating optimized sound and graphics for the XL until today. And then....the DRUID Picture uses 8 colors and you see only purple and green..... and then YOU are disillusioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 i would not call "the inquisators" coders... i remember them as crackers and these druid one was a small intro hacked poorly together with the warhawk (?) music... there was one with starglider screen and one with the last ninja eyes... all straight gr.15 ripps from c64... flickering DLIs in the scroller and that's all... hve ps. when will this discussion end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I´d recommend a graphic-adventure game like "Guild of "Thieves".Pictures are shown in the first 1/2 - 2/3 of the screen and the rest for text window.Maybe convert the original ATARI ST artwork and show how this game should look on the ATARI 8 Bit (The 8 Bit port uses ugly 4-color graphics). Or an action-game limited to 1 screen , something like Donkey Kong or Miner 2049er , Mr Robot etc. etc. At the end of the day, puzzle games are the easiest to produce and, since we're talking about something as a proof of concept rather than as a game in itself, a playable game would be a bonus but isn't essential to the equation. Emkay has shown screen prototypes of a puzzler using MCS, maybe it's time to finish that...? Once the tech is proven, then it's a matter of taking things up a gear and putting together something more complex building on what has gone before. I think the ATARI 8 Bit could display graphics similar to NES , Master system or Game Gear. That's probably an overestimation of the Atari's potential power - certainly it's not a claim i'd make about the C64 despite having modes like AFLI that get a lot closer to matching the NES or SMS hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 PMG overlays/underlays, DLI in Antic E or Antic 4 are NOTHING NEW. Hundreds of games use these techniques -- have you everplayed Bristles or Astrochase or SPY vs SPY 2/3 for instance all use these techiques (bristles in game, Astrochase for the launch sequnce and SPY for the title screens) -- plus hundreds of PD images created in the early '80's? What I and trying to get at is that you keep saying MCS, MCS, MCS whenever ANY discussion on ANY technique occurs on this board. You keep saying, the A8 can do so much better, better than any game ever released so far for it, if you do as you say. Yet you show NOTHING to back that up -- yes I can see that thr druid picture has more than pink and green, its still a poorly colored image, its still not a patch on the C64 image!!!! I'm sorry I don't see any evidence of what you say being either innovative or true. I think your understanding of making REAL games, action titles that move at 30hz or more, is extremely limited, and the ideas you propose would only MASSIVLEY complicate a game at the expense of both Game Design and realistic development time. The odd still screen image or simple puzzle game may benefit from hours of intricate display twiddling, but console style action games would not... sTeVE P.S. TMR -- none of this is directed at your efforts -- Reaxion looks real nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Ok, I'm no programmer/hacker like you guys are, but I am an artist with an eye for detail, and I must say, looking at the Druid title screen shots I see nothing out of the ordinary at all. MCS? That top picture looks like a standard 4 color screen to me, with the one background color for a total of 5 colors: I see black, white, red and two shades of green, the rest is the mixing and dithering of those other colors, looks like a standard microillistrator screen to me. I've seen screens that DO look as good as that bottom C64 screen on the 8-bit before though, Satontronic has a simple art program that can display 16 colors on screen with a good resolution, they have samples of it on their site (or at least to download and look at) I've seen a LOT of software oriented graphic modes over the years with anywhere from 9-4,096 colors onscreen at once for the 8-bit Atari, many are only good for still picks, but if that top pic above is MCS mode, it looks like Antic E to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Oh, by the way, is that "flimbo" pic an Atari 8-bit game? It looks like one, where can I get an ATR of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Oh, by the way, is that "flimbo" pic an Atari 8-bit game? It looks like one, where can I get an ATR of that? Flimbo's Quest is a C64 game, D64 versions of it are available on the web from most reputable sources. The graphics were "borrowed" for an Atari 8bit game called Tusker but there is less colour, there's no overlay parallax and the sprite handling is a little slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 You keep saying, the A8 can do so much better, better than any game ever released so far for it, if you do as you say. Yet you show NOTHING to back that up -- yes I can see that thr druid picture has more than pink and green, its still a poorly colored image, its still not a patch on the C64 image!!!! 1)Poorly colored is your website and the games inside it... Shadow of the Beast is an exeption. 2)Drawing pictures like the DRUID title is on the C64 nothing to mention. 3)On the Atari 8-bits there is no tool to draw those pictures directly ....oooops 4) The emulator does not show the colors correctly. On the XL the color-choice looks way better in the DRUID pic. I see.... it is really useless to talk about this with you.... I'll take note for the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Ok, I'm no programmer/hacker like you guys are, but I am an artist with an eye for detail, and I must say, looking at the Druid title screen shots I see nothing out of the ordinary at all. MCS? That top picture looks like a standard 4 color screen to me, with the one background color for a total of 5 colors: I see black, white, red and two shades of green,... You ARE an Artist? You HAVE an eye for Detail? And you see 5 colors only? Please check your monitor or computer... it may be defective. I hope for your sake, your Hardware IS defective The colors are: Black Red Green (dark) Green (light) Purple Brown White Grey Well... by this I see, why my posts are going into the nirvana... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 The graphics were "borrowed" for an Atari 8bit game called Tusker but there is less colour, there's no overlay parallax and the sprite handling is a little slow. Thanks for mentioning this... Here is a screenshot from Tusker You see ... like allways the same.... Antic 4 and the "hero" uses the full PMg...and in the scoreboard are about 30 DLIs wasting CPU time for not really enhancing the gamegraphics... As you can see... the enemies are still moving in black ranges and do not cross anything to avoid overlappings... Saving CPU time with less DLIs and making the HERO a softwaresprite too was one way to create better graphics in this game. PM Overlay for the background would make the sprites more distuingish and the game more viewable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Ok, I'm no programmer/hacker like you guys are, but I am an artist with an eye for detail, and I must say, looking at the Druid title screen shots I see nothing out of the ordinary at all. MCS? That top picture looks like a standard 4 color screen to me, with the one background color for a total of 5 colors: I see black, white, red and two shades of green,... You ARE an Artist? You HAVE an eye for Detail? And you see 5 colors only? Please check your monitor or computer... it may be defective. I hope for your sake, your Hardware IS defective The colors are: Black Red Green (dark) Green (light) Purple Brown White Grey Well... by this I see, why my posts are going into the nirvana... Sorry Emkay, it as a matter of fact WAS a defective monitor; I am now on my own computer (wasn't before) and I can now very plainly see all the colors! it certainbly looks a LOT better than on the other monitor! At least i know my monitor is in good shape. The pic looks much better now and I like the MCS mode! ...and YES I do have an eye for detail and am a VERY GOOD artist, now I've got to go let a friend know they have something wrong with either their monitor or graphics card! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 You see ... like allways the same.... Antic 4 and the "hero" uses the full PMg...and in the scoreboard are about 30 DLIs wasting CPU time for not really enhancing the gamegraphics... True, splitting the status area like that is fairly pointless - although it saves on having to define graphics i suppose... Since the main game stuff is mostly pulls, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the lack of an artist...? As you can see... the enemies are still moving in black ranges and do not cross anything to avoid overlappings... i don't see anything wrong with that personally, although i prefer to only have foreground detail so it's not so jarring (it would make that screen a bit more empty, but if it's done well it's easier to work with) and have the colours as dark grey, light grey and a mid range colour that can be split with DLIs to give a bit more detail. The soft sprites can also use the fifth colour to put a bit more detail on each line as well and make them stand out. Saving CPU time with less DLIs and making the HERO a softwaresprite too was one way to create better graphics in this game. PM Overlay for the background would make the sprites more distuingish and the game more viewable. That is one solution, but the work-around i've just gone through above is another and will produce quite a bit of colour if done well. i'm scribbling notes for a scrolling SEU that uses that trick along with a player splitter like Mirax Force or more preferably Lowca but that's a future project... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 Sorry Emkay, it as a matter of fact WAS a defective monitor; Accepted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 True, splitting the status area like that is fairly pointless - although it saves on having to define graphics i suppose... Since the main game stuff is mostly pulls, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the lack of an artist...? I guess you are right, there was no graphical artist. The whole game is suffering by that. i don't see anything wrong with that personally, not wrong... But with PM Overlay you would get parts on the screen, that are "behind" the sprites The soft sprites can also use the fifth colour to put a bit more detail on each line as well and make them stand out. Erm... they are still using the 5th color ... the lighter purple color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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