Goochman Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 I for one would be willing to shell out some $$ for some good->excellent conversions of Impossible Mission (thats not impossible ), Bubble Bobble, Space Harrier or some other cool C64/Apple game not available to use 8bitters. Not aiming at you or indeed anyone in particular (because i don't know anyone's specific abilites) but instead of worrying about spending money on something like that you could be looking at spending time on it; learn 6502, figure out how the ANTIC works and then write your own version of a missing game. Believe me, i've been dealing with machines well past their commercial twilight for a while now and anybody who is coding purely for financial gain these days is nothing short of deluded and even the Protovision team or Cronosoft (two companies that commercially release 8bit titles) aren't really in it for the dosh but are there to lend some support to the machines. The people actually getting the job done, people like Lasse Oorni (the awesome Metal Warrior series that's about to spawn a fourth installment and BOFH: Servers Under Siege on the C64), Mike Dailly and Luca Carrafiello (slowly working on the Plus/4 blaster Xeo 3), Jonathan Cauldwell (Egghead In Space 3 for the Spectrum and now working on the fantastic looking More Tea, Vicar?), Aleksi Eeben (the excellent unexpanded VIC20 game Dragonwing) or indeed our very own Sheddy are there for the enjoyment of doing something with the machine. So whilst a financial incentive would, i'm sure, be nice it's certainly not a primary motivation. i suspect my "ranting" like this is a little over the top (apologies in advance =-) especially considering how short a time i've been with the Atari - but i'd like to think that eight years in the "wilderness" of post commercial C64 support at least gives me a grounding in these matters and that experience tells me that what the Atari needs now is coders, people to produce games and indeed demos to show the world and more importantly other coders that the Atari is here, that it can do cool stuff, that it needs their support. TMR, I once tried to learn 6502 assembly for the 8bit and did a miserable job. As someone else mentioned not everyone can code for these machines and I am one of those folks. I threw my $0.02 out there so folk would know there is interest in this market (atleast 1 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 I once tried to learn 6502 assembly for the 8bit and did a miserable job. As someone else mentioned not everyone can code for these machines and I am one of those folks. i was about to say that it's reasonably easy, but then again i've been slapping code together for close to 20 years now on the C64 and have a few other formats on the go as well (Plus/4, PET, VIC20, NES...) so perhaps i'm biased...? =-) There's nothing to stop you having another go at learning 6502 now though, these days there are gurus hanging around online and the assembly tools are several grades more powerful and flexible than the native stuff on just about every 8bit going short of Zeus 128 running as a cross assembler from a C128 to a C64 (not quite PDS but damned close). Crimson Editor with Xasm is a breeze to work with even if i do accidentally launch C64Asm or NESAsm from time to time... =-) I threw my $0.02 out there so folk would know there is interest in this market (atleast 1 ) That's part of what i was saying, it's not really a market as such and y'just have to hope that the interests of an active coder match your own... Me, i wouldn't try something like Bubble Bobble but the main reason for that is i'd rather play other kinds of game myself and with a 6 to 9 month turn-around (if lucky) on a project i've really got to like something in order to survive beta testing and make it to the end... =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Holy Crap TMR -- I went to you site and foun dmy way to so many AWESOME C64 games in development!!!! i'm actually missing a few links right now, in particular Funkscientist Productions who are putting together a very nice looking cute platformer and there's supposedly still a Zelda conversion on the go although the peeps involved have been much quiet of late. The Creators stuff -- Abrakadabra, Armageddon & Hip Hop -- VERY NICE Protovisions Ice Guys, It's Magic II and Newcomer -- WOW![/b] i'm looking forward to a couple from the Protovision mob - i'd love to be able to play Metal Dust but it requires a SuperCPU to run sadly (the trailer looks bloody awesome)... Still, Enforcer 2 is looking a lot spiffy and of course the early previews of Armageddon were released recently... =-) My favourite games are shoot-em-ups, if you hadn't noticed. More Tea, Vicar? is starting to look awesome on the Speccy for that - no hardware scroll, no hardware sprites and it still plays very nicely... And Xe03 on the +4 -- really sweet... Remembering that the Plus/4 has no hardware sprites and less CPU time per screen than the Atari - the only advantage (at least considering how Xeo3 works) is 256 characters for a font rather than 128. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Ok, I know this is off the MCS topic, but since TMR started talking about all the cool development going on with the C64, Plus/4 and VIC20, I have to ask... Has anyone ever done, or currently working on games for the C128 in "128" mode? it seems to me this is a platform with an absolute derth of games since the C64 mode was built into it and everything always focused on it. But isn't the 128's OS an upgrade of the 64's? It seems to me that some killer game apps could be made for it with the newer OS and all the hardware of the 128/64 in there. There is certainly a larger base of users that have 128's than there are of the pitiful Plus/4, yet games are being made for it. Just curious, it would be nice to actually USE 128 mode on my C128! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Gunstar- Use the 128 mode for Word Processing, Spreadsheets and CP/M emulation - use the C64 modes for games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Gunstar- Use the 128 mode for Word Processing, Spreadsheets and CP/M emulation - use the C64 modes for games BLEH! now that is an idea that just blows and sucks at the same time! I'd sooner use my ST or Amiga or even mac for that stuff than ever bother to use the 128 for it...I just think it might be a good platform for games, am I wrong? Is it designed PURELY for applications and can't use any of the good hardware inside for some killer games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 There are only about fifteen or twenty dedicated C128 games and the few that are of any note either use the VDC (80 column) display like Trinity by Infocom, rely on the 128K memory like Last V8 128 or have been fixed for the C64 like the recent one-filed mod of Kikstart 128. There are a couple of games that use 2MHz from C64 mode; Uridium Plus, Alleykat and the later Paradroid releases for example. A few people are doing C128 development, but i'm not aware of any games on the go - there are more for the SuperCPU i think! On the hardware front, the only real difference between a C128 and a C64 is the 2MHz mode and VDC screen; the former can be used from C64 mode anyway by fiddling with $d030 (it can only be used during the upper and lower border, the VIC-II can't deal with that fast a CPU) and the latter has a very slow access time so isn't much cop for anything past text driven games. There's a Z80A present for CPM mode but it's clocked down to 2MHz so it's all but useless compared to the 65xx variant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Ok, I know, far away from perfect but let me know what you think about the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Looks like the discussion is going the right way now Back to MCS, I played around a bit with the Druid picture and think there is a big potential especially when using DLI. On the other hand it’s very time intensive to get the best out of it. If I have enough time I will continue working on it and show you the result. Have you used the resources from the Slideshow disk? Maybe it would be helpfull. yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Ok, I know, far away from perfect but let me know what you think about the picture. Nice job! -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Very nice -- that's cool Would any moving or repositioning of elements help with colorizing -- given the whole composition is designed around the C64's color attributes?? sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Thanks guys. it could be better but this lda/sta hell killed me... Very nice -- that's cool Would any moving or repositioning of elements help with colorizing -- given the whole composition is designed around the C64's color attributes?? sTeVE The picture is based on ekays dataset (font from his slideshow) and this based on the Atari hacker intro which based on the c64 picture (I guess). I only used the c64 picture as "color template" to give me an idea how it could look like. Moving elements could help; a total redesign with the a8 limitation/advantages in mind would surly give a better result. I "cheated" a bit because I cut the borders; this was because black wasn't chosen as border color in the font. It looks a little bit "ugly" with different boder color, you could avoid this when making a redesign (or you just can use wide playfield ). This is the picture with borders: Matthias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Ah -- that's good to see, I guess the bodrers are kinda inevitable What tool did ja use to re-color, or didja code it in basic or the like?? sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Ah -- that's good to see, I guess the bodrers are kinda inevitable What tool did ja use to re-color, or didja code it in basic or the like?? sTeVE No tool, all handmade, as I said: lda, sta, lda, sta, lda....... very annoying... Matthias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Ok, I know, far away from perfect but let me know what you think about the picture. Woah, much nice...! =-) Now, planning a puzzle game using a similar picture around the play area... any chance? =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Ok, I know, far away from perfect but let me know what you think about the picture. Woah, much nice...! =-) Now, planning a puzzle game using a similar picture around the play area... any chance? =-) Puzzle game should be possible but forget about action games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 @schmutz very nice! how long did it take to "repaint" the whole stuff??? can you post the exe here? so i can have a look into the code just to get a feeling of it how your kernel stuff looks like... @ dracon (if you have the time to pop by...) any idea if there is a polish tool out there which could draw things like that???? and you as gfx guy... can you write own DLIs/kernels just to get this kind of results? hve ps. are you abbuc member? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 take a look on the progress the guys made: amazing... isn't it? do i spot more colors in the atari pic???? hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2003 Author Share Posted September 3, 2003 @Matthias You're getting close What did you think when trying to make the pic more colorfull? Isn't it more fun when you can set DLIs and they are really making the picture more colorfull instead of setting DLIs only for showing some colors? Belonging to the Border... To filter the PM resolution it is allways necessary to use a Playfield color as "background". You have two possibilities: 1) use the background color(712) with the darkest color when drawing 2) try to create DLIs only on the playfield and pm colors. As you can see... because the DLIs are really enhancing the picture, they are not disturbing the pictures flair to much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2003 Author Share Posted September 3, 2003 Now, planning a puzzle game using a similar picture around the play area... any chance? =-) For a first Puzzle-Game I would consider a PM wrapper and using only 6 colors in the range of the "puzzle".... until a logic for this is proven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 @schmutz very nice! how long did it take to "repaint" the whole stuff??? A loooong time, about 10 hours or so.... As I said I just played around when I begun. I had to figure out what I can do to get a good result. I didn't repaint a whole pixel (except PM definition). Playerdefinition/playerposition/playersize/playercolorcolor and prio settings is all that I have done (beside some changing of the playfieldcolor). @schmutz can you post the exe here? so i can have a look into the code just to get a feeling of it how your kernel stuff looks like... Sure, you can find the file here: http://www.atari8bit.de/druid.com You will see code like this: [...] lda #$36 sta HPOSM1 sta $d40a lda #$34 sta HPOSM1 sta $d40a lda #$35 sta HPOSM1 sta $d40a lda #$01 sta SIZEP3 lda #$53 sta HPOSP3 sta $d40a sta $d40a sta $d40a lda #$38 sta HPOSP1 lda #$58 sta HPOSP3 sta $d40a lda #$58 sta HPOSP3 lda #$00 sta SIZEP3 sta $d40a sta $d40a lda #$39 sta HPOSP1 sta $d40a lda #$39 sta HPOSP1 [...] As you can see, nothing "magic" ps. are you abbuc member? Yep, abbuc member (again) since about two moths (I refind my Atari love ) Bye Matthias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmutzpuppe Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 @Matthias What did you think when trying to make the pic more colorfull? Isn't it more fun when you can set DLIs and they are really making the picture more colorfull instead of setting DLIs only for showing some colors? I Don't think that i really understand what you mean (try it in german ) @MatthiasBelonging to the Border... To filter the PM resolution it is allways necessary to use a Playfield color as "background". You have two possibilities: 1) use the background color(712) with the darkest color when drawing 2) try to create DLIs only on the playfield and pm colors. As you can see... because the DLIs are really enhancing the picture, they are not disturbing the pictures flair to much. The problem here was that a very big area of the picture was drawn in background color. Another way would be to use wide playfield than you don't have any (left/right) borders at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2003 Author Share Posted September 3, 2003 @Schmutzpuppe Did you get my Private Mail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Is the 4 color image available as an Atari loadable file in say micropainter format?? sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 3, 2003 Author Share Posted September 3, 2003 Schmutzpuppe's work does show, in an impressiv way, how graphics can look like.... But it is very intriguing to me that no one still recognizes the reduced colordepth of the picture. The original had 4 colors and 4 colors for objects The MCS picture has 8 colors and 4 colors for objects The Picture from SP has more than 8 colors by using DLIs but the objects are having 3 or only 2 colors in average... The C64 pic has 16 colors and the objects are allways having 4 colors in average. In addition, the charmode color is not used where it was available...(I know it is a kind hard to do this by hand) With a special drawing-tool for this MCS + 23 color-DLIs it is possible to create pictures with the real ability of 4 colors per object and to use more than 16 colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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