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Lode Runner Colors


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#1 Tempest OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 7, 2003 9:45 PM

Does anyone know what the proper colors are for Lode Runner? From what I remember on my Apple IIe it was blue blocks and a black background. However I've noticed that the colors change on different Atari systems (due to the Artifacting I believe). On my 1200XL with an OS mod the colors were blue blocks and a bright purple background. On my 800XL I'm getting green blocks a purple background. On the back of the box it shows blue blocks and a not so bright purple background (I assume they used a 65 or 130 XE). What should the colors really be?

Do any other games have such trouble with colors?

Tempest

#2 ZylonBane OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 7, 2003 10:02 PM

Any Atari game that uses artifacting is going to have this exact same problem, in exactly the same way, obviously.

#3 Bryan OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 7, 2003 10:43 PM

I seem to recall getting purple and green on my 1200XL, but I can't be sure now.

I get Blue/Red on my XL. There really is no way for the programmer to control these colors.

More on artifacting:

http://www.atariage....ghlight=#401554

-Bry

edit:

Okay, Lode Runner changes the background color, so the artifact colors will be different. I'm getting a purple background with reddish-orange bricks. The other artifact color (used on the little men) is blue. I'm using a Super-Video modded 800XL.

#4 ApolloBoy OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 7, 2003 11:05 PM

That's weird. On my 800XL, almost everything is in a shade of red.

#5 Bryan OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 7, 2003 11:11 PM

That's wierd. What kind of video connection are you using?

-Bry

#6 ApolloBoy OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 7, 2003 11:20 PM

That's wierd. What kind of video connection are you using?

   -Bry


RF through an RCA-to-coax adapter.

#7 Tempest OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 8, 2003 7:29 AM

Found this in the FAQ:

CTIA 400/800s artifact in blue/green
GTIA 400/800s artifact in green/blue
all XL/XEs artifact in red/blue.

Which doesn't explain how I'm getting green/red (purple) on my 800XL. Shouldn't it be red/blue? I'm using a composite connection, I wonder if that is the reason?

Tempest

#8 Bryan OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 8, 2003 9:46 AM

Found this in the FAQ:

CTIA 400/800s artifact in blue/green
GTIA 400/800s artifact in green/blue
all XL/XEs artifact in red/blue.

Which doesn't explain how I'm getting green/red (purple) on my 800XL.  Shouldn't it be red/blue?  I'm using a composite connection, I wonder if that is the reason?

Tempest


The FAQ assumes a black background (No Chroma signal). Lode Runner uses a purple background, so the artifact colors will be a mixture of the purple chroma signal, and the alternating playfield pixels (as if 2 chroma signals were added).

I think the FAQ is wrong regarding the 1200XL. The video circuit is different from any other machine, and I remember getting different colors (purple/green against black).

You should get the same colors using composite or RF, since the RF signal is simply a modulated composite signal.

-Bry

#9 davidcalgary29 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 8, 2003 11:07 AM

Does anyone know what the proper colors are for Lode Runner?  From what I remember on my Apple IIe it was blue blocks and a black background.  However I've noticed that the colors change on different Atari systems (due to the Artifacting I believe).  On my 1200XL with an OS mod the colors were blue blocks and a bright purple background.  On my 800XL I'm getting green blocks a purple background.  On the back of the box it shows blue blocks and a not so bright purple background (I assume they used a 65 or 130 XE).  What should the colors really be?

Do any other games have such trouble with colors?

Tempest


I'd say that the "problems" of artifacting are best illustrated in Tower Toppler. Playability is much more adversely effected in that game than it is in LR, because TT has a much more complicated and sophisticated visual structure. The game's unplayable on an emulator, and really only looks acceptable on the 800XL.

#10 emuxer0 OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:54 PM

I'd say that the "problems" of artifacting are best illustrated in Tower Toppler. Playability is much more adversely effected in that game than it is in LR, because TT has a much more complicated and sophisticated visual structure. The game's unplayable on an emulator, and really only looks acceptable on the 800XL.


The "problem" with Tower Toppler is that it was programmed using the maximum resolution available. To achieve this, they had to reduce the color palette and on-screen colors to 2. Also, this game was made for the XEVGS, some of the new games for this machine won't work propperly in older machines due to memory mapping, OS incompatibility, RAM requirements, Video chipset, etc.

Another game that has the same artifacting problem is the original 1982 Choplifter, also from Broderbund.

Is there a master list of "artifacting" games?

By the way, I have played Tower Toppler on the Atari800DC emulator for Dreamcast and it plays quite well.

#11 Mindfield OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:51 PM

Dunno about any master list, but offhand I can recall:

- D.R.O.L.
- Starquake
- the Ultima games
- Amaurote
- Chimera
- Minute Man

Quite a few more whose names I can't recall, too. :-)

#12 ZylonBane OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:27 PM

The "problem" with Tower Toppler is that it was programmed using the maximum resolution available. To achieve this, they had to reduce the color palette and on-screen colors to 2.

I don't know if I'd call this an achievement. It's just selecting graphics mode 8. You can do it from BASIC.

Also, this game was made for the XEVGS, some of the new games for this machine won't work propperly in older machines due to memory mapping, OS incompatibility, RAM requirements, Video chipset, etc.

The XEGS is for all practical purposes a 65XE. I'm not aware of any incompatibilities between XEGS carts and XL/XE line. Some carts do require 64K of RAM though.

Is there a master list of "artifacting" games?

Ummm... that would be weird. Artifacting is a side-effect, not a design feature. Any game that runs in Graphics 8 exhibits artifacts. Just some games ignore it and some games take advantage of it.

#13 Randy California OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:20 AM

Dunno about any master list, but offhand I can recall:
- D.R.O.L.
- Starquake
- the Ultima games
- Amaurote
- Chimera
- Minute Man

Chimera doesn't use artifacting. Minute Man (do you mean Minit Man?) was never released for the A8.

++
RC
++

#14 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 16, 2003 4:56 AM

i would not count starquake nor amaroute and every other "gr.8" game to artifact games... as they were designed for using gr.8. ultima imho as well... as you don't have these kind of "01" "10" "11" bitpares like loading a 4 color picture into gr.8... maybe artifacting was a side effect in ultima?

hard hat mack, loderunner and others you see the mentioned bitpares... but i don't see any advantage compared to if using artifacting or gr.15.

ah... i can remember ultima 4 intro with the waggon (character generation). there i was disappointed to have this in monochrome... did someone tried to overwrite the displaylist just from "f"s into "e"?

drol i have as a nice 4 color version...


hve

#15 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:38 AM

ah... i can remember ultima 4 intro with the waggon (character generation). there i was disappointed to have this in monochrome... did someone tried to overwrite the displaylist just from "f"s into "e"?

I'm afraid that won't work, since many of the game "tiles" are designed to be viewed in mode f (i.e. the bitpattern 0110 would still produce white and not red+green). That means that you would also lost that much more detail in those tiles.

(the top and bottom lines are text mode, which is why they are still green)

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#16 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:42 AM

BTW, Conan also used artifacting

#17 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:56 AM

as i said... ultima is imho not designed for artifacting (that's why the conversion does not work as you cant read the text)... but check out loderunner, drol, hard hat mack, these flippers from EA (the one with the world war 2 theme...)... marauder... A.E. these should work?

hve

#18 davidcalgary29 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:15 AM

The "problem" with Tower Toppler is that it was programmed using the maximum resolution available. To achieve this, they had to reduce the color palette and on-screen colors to 2.

I don't know if I'd call this an achievement. It's just selecting graphics mode 8. You can do it from BASIC.

Also, this game was made for the XEVGS, some of the new games for this machine won't work propperly in older machines due to memory mapping, OS incompatibility, RAM requirements, Video chipset, etc.

The XEGS is for all practical purposes a 65XE. I'm not aware of any incompatibilities between XEGS carts and XL/XE line. Some carts do require 64K of RAM though.

Is there a master list of "artifacting" games?

Ummm... that would be weird. Artifacting is a side-effect, not a design feature. Any game that runs in Graphics 8 exhibits artifacts. Just some games ignore it and some games take advantage of it.


While it's not a compatibility issue per se, I note that some carts, like Rampage, will only work with the keyboard attachment plugged in on the XEGS, even though that game does not use the keyboard at all. I believe that Nir Dary stated that the keyboard accesses different memory addresses than it does in the 65/130XE units, but perhaps you could clarify. :)

#19 ZylonBane OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:02 PM

BTW, Conan also used artifacting

Not the version I played.


There was an official cart release of Rampage for the XEs?

#20 davidcalgary29 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:08 PM

BTW, Conan also used artifacting

Not the version I played.


There was an official cart release of Rampage for the XEs?


That's the Sunmark NTSC hack. I don't know if this is the same version of the game that Atari had planned to use for its XEGS cart release.

#21 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:23 AM

i have conan on 5,25 discs somehwere it is 4 colours gfx like goonies... i have the datasoft version... and in europe you don't have artifacting...

hve

#22 ZylonBane OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:23 AM

i have conan on 5,25 discs somehwerehve

"5,25"? So which is it... 5, or 25?

Oh wait, this is that "our decimal point is a comma" prank you Europeans like to play on us silly Yanks. Ha, won't catch me out on that one again!

#23 Heaven/TQA OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:43 AM

zyklon ;)

btw. where do you have your nick from?

#24 emkay ONLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:07 AM

zyklon ;)

btw. where do you have your nick from?



Well ... I know only one Bane that thought he was the Human Leader of the Cylon(Zylon) empire (machines). When it came to the question, he loosed his head ;)
(Battlestar Galactica)

#25 Bryan OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:28 AM

he loosed his head ;)


Zylonbane,

Does your head really come loose? :)

-Bry




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