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#51 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:34 AM

I thought so.
* quickly steals idea

#52 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:25 AM

How?  They would already have it.  Contrary to my previous belief, it's not very hard to track down.

Is it? Even I never found the original binary.

But getting "official" permission seems to be impossible (even getting an actual "no").

Nah, you just have to be very patient. :)

#53 StanJr OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:22 AM

so is this a moral issue at this point? Sounds like the legality has been worked out. Are we waiting (forever) to hear from just to make sure this doesn't hurt their feelings or make use of something they have no plan to? Is this some sort of video game ethics debate?

#54 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:26 AM

How?  They would already have it.  Contrary to my previous belief, it's not very hard to track down.

Is it? Even I never found the original binary.

Noooo...not "the" original...but as it exists today (i.e. what I started with)
You can search for it by their name. AA hosts many roms, the ones they don't are downloadable other places that wouldn't give a flying fig over copyright laws.

#55 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:28 AM

Stan
It was a moral issue all along. Nobody had any copyright at all.

#56 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:42 AM

You can search for it by their name.  AA hosts many roms, the ones they don't are downloadable other places that wouldn't give a flying fig over copyright laws.

True, but what others are maybe doing wrong, doesn't make anything wrong you may be doing any more right.
"Noooo...not "the" original...but as it exists today (i.e. what I started with)"
I meant what "it" started with.


#57 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:44 AM

Nobody had any copyright at all.

I do! :)

#58 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:59 AM

Reminds me about all that flurry over CPS2 xor tables a few years back :lol:

Look, they've got the source. They can sell it if they choose to. If they decide not to, they aren't losing anything. And if this was public, I wouldn't be gaining anything that is rightfully theirs. Getting a response from them over which side of the fence they are on...that's the real trick.

#59 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:08 AM

Reminds me about all that flurry over CPS2 xor tables a few years back :lol:

Enlighten me.

Getting a response from them over which side of the fence they are on...that's the real trick.

Yup.

#60 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:18 AM

Street Fighter Zero 3...Raz posted the xor by mistake for a game that was "too new", even though he never had any permission from Capcom to have been doing it for any games to begin with (such requests would have been turned down flat).

I just wish that 2600 development wasn't so "corporate" in nature :P

#61 SS OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:44 PM

I say just put the f*in' thing out there and worry about it IF and WHEN anyone starts to yell.

Of course, what do I know! :P

#62 raindog OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:16 PM

I've never understood why we're supposed to respect the copyright of recent homebrewers while largely ignoring the hundreds of copyrights on stuff from before 1995 or so. Sure, if a Ken Love appears and says "pull my company's stuff" we will but the default is to assume it's okay to copy, hack and do whatever else.

Frankly, I'm in favor of ignoring it all at this point, because if Namco isn't gonna sue me over Pac26, and Infatarigrames isn't going to, and random hangers-on who falsely claim to have rights to it aren't gonna sue me either, then I probably don't have much to fear from some non-stella-list-contributing hackers in another country. Especially if the hack were a hundred times further removed from the original than Pac26 is, making it questionable as to whether it were even derivative any longer.

But I'm not Nukey, or Thomas, and I've been kinda done with hacks for a few years now ;)

#63 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:23 PM

I've never understood why we're supposed to respect the copyright of recent homebrewers while largely ignoring the hundreds of copyrights on stuff from before 1995 or so.  Sure, if a Ken Love appears and says "pull my company's stuff" we will but the default is to assume it's okay to copy, hack and do whatever else.

That's exactly the point. We are ignoring, because we assume they don't care (and we won't harm them at all). But here we know the copyright owner does care.

Legally there probably is no difference, but ethically there IMO is.

#64 raindog OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:28 PM

I've never seen anything in public from the party in question asking that no one distribute their stuff, only rumors and whispers. Stuff not unlike this thread, in fact.

#65 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:34 PM

That's exactly the point. We are ignoring, because we assume they don't care (and we won't harm them at all). But here we know the copyright owner does care.

I'm not ignoring...I've been waiting for some word. I can only guess that since he never bothered to reply that he no longer cares.
And just how far should that respect go? It's true that nobody posts up hacks or programs of *beep* games themselves...but how many of us have used methods that they pioneered? There's quite a bit of difference there, I think.
BTW since disassemblies of *beep* games exist, isn't that also going against their wishes? Anybody can download Dasm and recompile. Heck, it even shows you the command to use. A virtual no-brainer. Should the same respect be shown to those? Or are disassemblies void? Would new games based on those disassemblies also be frowned upon?

*beep*?


How fast?!



#66 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:59 PM

I'm not ignoring...I've been waiting for some word.  I can only guess that since he never bothered to reply that he no longer cares.

With "they" I was refering to "company stuff".

And just how far should that respect go?  It's true that nobody posts up hacks or programs of Activision games themselves...

I did. :)

but how many of us have used methods that they pioneered?  There's quite a bit of difference there, I think.
BTW since disassemblies of Activision games exist, isn't that also going against their wishes?  Anybody can download Dasm and recompile.  Heck, it even shows you the command to use.  A virtual no-brainer.  Should the same respect be shown to those?  Or are disassemblies void?  Would new games based on those disassemblies also be frowned upon?

We have discussed all this in private mails. And we agreed that we wouldn't agree. You know where I am standing, and, if you are interested, I will let you know when I should change my mind. Ok? :)

Ken?

You know the copyright laws, don't do? If Activision officially gets aware of any copyright violations, they have to react. Do you really want that? :?

#67 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:13 PM

I know...but the whole thing is confusing to me...hacks...ethics... :P
No longer fighting for something means no longer caring...
that's what worries me :ponder:

#68 StanJr OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:16 PM

I'm not ignoring...I've been waiting for some word.  I can only guess that since he never bothered to reply that he no longer cares.


EXACTLY. If they can't be bothered to answer a simple question, they must be TOO busy to care if a COMPLETELY unrelated game is released that may or may not have been based EXTREMELY loosely on a property they no longer have use for or interest in.

#69 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:41 PM

EXACTLY.  If they can't be bothered to answer a simple question, they must be TOO busy to care if a COMPLETELY unrelated game is released that may or may not have been based EXTREMELY loosely on a property they no longer have use for or interest in.

Still you don't know their intentions, or do you?

They behave quite differently to any other homebrewer I know. I don't know what's their opinion about this or why they usually react very slowly.

We should not base our assumptions on what we would do in such a case. That's pure speculation.

BTW: IMO it is not just loosely based on that. It's still the same kernel, which IMO (being a homebrewer myself) is the most important part of any game (Kurt has a different opinion). If you compare the screenshots, you will still recognize the similarities quite easily. And that it fools CloneSpy just proves that CloneSpy is not perfect if you want to fool it.

#70 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:46 PM

Uh oh :o
:D

#71 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:50 PM

Uh oh :o
:D

I noticed faster than you! :P

:D

#72 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:54 PM

Sorry about that Thomas :wink:

Message edited

#73 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:07 PM

About the actual similarities, I had gotten the program down to less than 15% shared (virtually all that remained of the original was the parts of the display kernal that couldn't be cut any further). Reorganizing the ram took care of the rest, which left it unrecognizable to Clonespy. This would (at least I think so) remove any chance of this hack being tied to the makers of the original IF the -real- owners of a copyright had decided to file a C&D against me. According to the link that I posted on the first page, there is nothing to defend about program structures which vaguely resemble another. And that last move has pretty much cinched it. So if it happened, I'd be taken to court, they wouldn't. So they would have nothing to fear about a public binary...they would still be untouchable.

#74 Nukey Shay OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:22 PM

As an example...
Let's just say that I hacked a game of Thrust! (hang on, Thomas!) to have sprites that looked like characters from Futurama. The makers of Futurama are -very- intimate about their copyright...as a matter of fact, they filed a C&D against somebody else here IIRC. Anyway, the hack is made, I start passing the rom publicly, and get taken to court. Would Thomas also be prosecuted because my hack bore a resemblance to his game? I don't see how. I hacked the game without HIS permission as well. And that is what this is all about...because Thomas (i.e. the guy I'm waiting to hear from) just wants to make sure that he isn't hauled off.

Does this make sense? It seems as though that nobody has nothing to lose (except for me...IF I'm prosecuted...and that is really unlikely, since the characters are -not- as closely guarded as Futurama's characters are)

#75 Saikyo OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:37 PM

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