Snow White

[mos6507]

Snow White was shown for the 2nd year in a row under glass at CGE.

 

You gotta hand it to the CGE guys. Seeing prototype cart shells is quite a meaningful display. You really get a sense of the game that way (not). God forbid they'd actually plug any of these games in so we could SEE them instead of just the labels.

 

How long do you think it will be before this game's ROM image ever surfaces??

[Tempest]

I'll admit it would be nice to see them in action, but the prototype owners may not have wanted them to be played. Who owns it anyway?

 

I think we'll see this rom surface about the same time we see Crack'ed, Good Luck Charlie Brown, and Ewok Adventure. Never... If the owners wanted to distrubte the roms they would have done so by now, I guess they want to hold onto their one of a kind prototype status. Won't they be surprised when another one shows up for half the price they paid for theirs. It's just a matter of time.

 

Tempest

[Scott Stilphen]

The CGE guys don't own it. In fact, most of the items in the museum weren't theirs - they belong to a number of owners who were kind enough to allow them to be displayed.

[Tempest]

That's true, and maybe they didn't want their prized possesion being played with why they weren't there (and they didn't want to babysit it).

 

Tempest

[Albert]

If those were my prototypes I wouldn't want them being handled by everyone at the show either, so I would definitely want them under glass. However, if they were my prototypes they'd also be dumped and available to the public so we wouldn't be having this conversation. I don't think having the binary image available devalues the prototypes, so I don't understand why people don't share the images.

 

I'm willing to be that most of these games have been dumped, but that there are only a few select people who have their hands on them because the cart owner doesn't want them publically available. If they aren't dumped then it's a shame, because if something happens to the protos then we may never have the opportunity to play them.

 

I have hopes that most of these games will be released someday. Maybe some of them will become available at future CGE shows (as Elevator Action was this year), some might appear on eBay and be purchased by people friendlier to the gaming community, and perhaps new copies will be discovered.

 

..Al

[rich_vcs]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glenn Saunders:

Snow White was shown for the 2nd year in a row under glass at CGE.

 

You gotta hand it to the CGE guys. Seeing prototype cart shells is quite a meaningful display. You really get a sense of the game that way (not). God forbid they'd actually plug any of these games in so we could SEE them instead of just the labels.

 

How long do you think it will be before this game's ROM image ever surfaces??

---

 

You really have to hand it to Saunders, he never misses a chance to take a shot at the CGE guys! What have YOU done for the hobby lately except show everyone that you're the world's biggest jackass?!

 

Isn't it about time you went away troll?

 

Rich

[Tempest]

quote

What have YOU done for the hobby lately except show everyone that you're the world's biggest jackass?!

 

One might ask the same question of you.

 

 

Seriously though, I don't know what's going on between you two but take it off the board. We don't need personal attacks on people here.

 

Tempest

 

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: Tempest ]

[s-kelly]

How would you know that Snow White was shown under glass at CGE for the second year in a row Glenn? You weren't even there. I have to hand it to you though...at least you addressed us as "CGE guys" here instead of "John & Keita" like you have elsewhere. Just for your information in future wise-ass comments about CGE, Keita has nothing to do with CGE anymore. Furthermore, Snow White doesn't belong to John (or Keita) for that matter.

 

Albert hit the nail on the head here:

 

"Maybe some of them will become available at future CGE shows (as Elevator Action was this year), some might appear on eBay and be purchased by people friendlier to the gaming community"

 

This is the problem Albert. If an undiscovered prototype shows up on eBay, who's going to win it? One of maybe four or five people. As soon as one of these guys wins it, they're hit with "gimme the ROM image?!" Now put yourself in their shoes. You just laid-out over a grand of your hard-earned money for a game and now people act as if you're required to hand-over the data. If you're comfortable paying that kind of dough for a game and posting the ROM image publicly, that's great. I can completely understand why someone might be hesitant, or even outright refuse, to do that. In the case of an eBay sale, the game was out there for anyone to bid on.

 

The somewhat recent insertion of the word "Public" to the title of Glenn's "Digital Public Archive" is absolutely hiliarious! Initially, it was important only that the games were archived in case something were to happen to the data on the EPROM. Now it has to be a "public" archive. In other words, if Glenn doesn't have access to the data, it's not good enough anymore. Quite frankly, you (specifically you) are one of the reasons that some of the data isn't publicly available.

 

So Glenn, if you want to complete this little archive of yours, start laying out some cash. Yeah, I know....your response will be to put the blame on how much prototypes sell for on eBay. Welcome to the world of supply and demand buddy.

 

In the meantime, I guess you'll have to learn to take comfort in the fact that the game probably was archived by someone else. You see, it is possible for an archive to exist that you aren't the self-appointed keeper of.

[Albert]

quote

This is the problem Albert. If an undiscovered prototype shows up on eBay, who's going to win it? One of maybe four or five people. As soon as one of these guys wins it, they're hit with "gimme the ROM image?!" Now put yourself in their shoes. You just laid-out over a grand of your hard-earned money for a game and now people act as if you're required to hand-over the data. If you're comfortable paying that kind of dough for a game and posting the ROM image publicly, that's great. I can completely understand why someone might be hesitant, or even outright refuse, to do that. In the case of an eBay sale, the game was out there for anyone to bid on.

 

I can certainly appreciate someone's desire to collect extremely rare and potentially one-of-a-kind prototypes. Heck, I'd love to have those games too and perhaps someday I'll shell out that kind of cash for them. However, I'm saddened that people won't release the images because they think the value of their rare prototype will decrease. Perhaps if some collector wants to play this rare game Very Badly they might pay more for it, but we know that's not why people are buying these prototypes. It's because of the exclusivity of having a prototype that no one else has.

 

Even if the ROM image is floating around, that does not diminish the fact that you might have the only physical incarnation of that particular game. In fact, if everyone has had an opportunity to sample the game I could see that increasing the desire for it, at least if it's a good game.

 

Someone who spends $1,000 for a 2600 prototype is certainly entitled to do anything they want with the game. I would never hound someone to release a prototype and would discourage anyone who does. I don't harbor any ill will towards people who hoard these prototypes, I just hope they have a change of heart someday, or that they eventually sell it, or another copy is found. And I certainly hope that these collectors have allowed *someone* to archive them, in case something happens to the originals.

 

..Al

[Blackjax]

quote

Someone who spends $1,000 for a 2600 prototype is certainly entitled to do anything they want with the game. I would never hound someone to release a prototype and would discourage anyone who does. I don't harbor any ill will towards people who hoard these prototypes, I just hope they have a change of heart someday, or that they eventually sell it, or another copy is found. And I certainly hope that these collectors have allowed *someone* to archive them, in case something happens to the originals.

 

There's unfortunately a very fine line that always seems to be walked on this issue, and every time the same arguments are pitched by the same people.

 

The polar opposites on this issue, unfortunately, are never going to change, however the thing that really is getting to a point is the seperation of the sides and BOTH sides of the issue getting overly sensitive about it.

 

On the one hand, there are the people who want the ROMS now, and no excuses - these are the usual very vocal trolls on IRC that have full Good* collections including all known bad dumps and alternate CRC dumps, and want the dump for no other reason than to file it away to keep their collection complete. Begging, whining, demanding, etc... etc...

 

Then, on the completely opposite side, you have the prototype owners who don't release their ROM binaries to the public. These people sit up on their high horse, waving the cart at the masses in one hand while flipping everyone off with the other. While yes, it is completely within their rights to keep the cart undumped and/or unreleased, you can't wave it at the public like waving the red flag in front of the bull and not expect people to ask about it. Unfortunately, both of these sides leave the rest of us in the middle completely out of luck.

 

Unlike Albert, these are the people who I do harbor some ill will towards. There are many people who hold unreleased prototypes that don't act like the kid with a new toy yelling "NYEH NYA NYA NYEH NYA!" While working on System Failure, I did get in contact with a few people who hold unreleased prototypes, and in most cases, I was politely declined. (there was one rather ugly case, but I don't think we need to get into that just now)

 

I've also had a few cases of people contacting me about that they have an undumped prototype and telling me to add them "to my list on my page," except that when I ask them if they're going to release a binary, since System Failure IS a ROM site, these two people got extremely rude and acted seriously offended "that I even dare ask them anything about emulation." Hey, you contacted me, not the other way around - and it is getting to the point that anyone asking anything about an undumped prototype has their head ripped off by someone.

 

And Sean, specifically with Snow White, you gotta admit that you (or whoever updates cgexpo.com) got people's hopes up last year sayin that it and several other prototype ROM dumps were gonna be released

[Joel D. Park]

I would love to see someone do a release of Donald Duck's Speedboat, Dumbo's Circus and Snow White in the same fasion as they did Elevator Action and Combat Two.

 

the whole disney setup would be awesome.

[Tempest]

Donald Duck is fun to play, and so is Dumbo (to a point), but they're nothing wonderful like Elevator Action was. I doubt Snow White would be that interesting considering it's very incomplete (from what I hear).

 

I'd actually have to say my version of Dumbo is much more fun than the dumped one since it's much harder (these games were made for kids so they're too easy). It's an earlier version though so some of the sounds aren't there yet. I'll be releasing the rom at the end of this month (assuming I can get a good dump of it).

 

Tempest

[Rhindle The Red]

My attitude towards this issue is somewhat more complex than most, I think.

 

I am torn. On the one hand, I like to play the prototypes for unreleased games (I really want to play Ewok Adventure) but on the other hand there is the question of copyright.

 

These games are still under copyright. Either to the original creator (in the case of Ewok, Parker Bros.) or the trademark holder (Lucasfilm). I believe the ownership of single prototypes is equivalent to someone owning the only manuscript of, say, an unpublished Arthur Miller play. An individual may own the manuscript, and may even own it legally, but that does not give him or her the legal right to release it to the public (the 'copy' right). Neither does it give them the power to refuse to allow it to be copied if the copyright holder demands it.

 

It is my belief that if (still using Ewok as an example) Lucasfilm were contacted and wanted the ROM, the owner of the prototype would have to give it up.

 

I guess what I'm getting at here is that prototype owners who sit on the ROMs have misunderstood what they own.

 

They do not own the ROM, they only own the hardware that stores it.

[rich_vcs]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tempest:

One might ask the same question of you.

---

 

Or of you, Tempest. The difference is that I don't go around taking cheap shots whenever possible at the people who do good things for the hobby (in this case, the CGE guys).

 

Do you think Saunders' rants are o.k.?

If not, why do you get up in arms when I defend the other side?

 

If you have a beef with me, I'll be happy to tangle with you. I don't think it should come to that though.

 

I see Sean Kelly from CGE has responded so it should be interesting to see what Saunders has to say now.

 

Rich

[Tempest]

Now now, simmer down. I was just pointing out that it's easy to throw the "what have you done for us lately?" stuff around. I suppose that could very easily apply to me as well (although I have been busy with the 2600 label variations list, prototype cataloging, and 5200 programming lately, to name a few).

 

No I don't think his pot shots are ok. I assumed he was talking about a the CGE in general and not an individual (as he apperently did on other pages). I don't like to see any one person start blasting another person, it's not what this board is about (and I've had enough of that with you know who). I actually can't recall any of "Saunders' rants" as you put it, maybe I'm just not reading those messages.

 

quote

If you have a beef with me, I'll be happy to tangle with you. I don't think it should come to that though.

 

Geez, why is everyone so defensive lately? You'd think I'd challeneged you to a duel to the death or something. I have no "beef" with you, although I don't like to be threatened. I think your over reacting just a little bit don't you? All I said was take this off line. I'm not taking sides in anything. Yeesh! Everyone is testy today...

 

Tempest

[digitalpress]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glenn Saunders:

You gotta hand it to the CGE guys. Seeing prototype cart shells is quite a meaningful display. You really get a sense of the game that way (not). God forbid they'd actually plug any of these games in so we could SEE them instead of just the labels.

---

 

Nice. Would seeing one video game (that you wouldn't have seen anyway since you were too busy to show up) really have affected your life that much?

 

I happen to be one of the "CGE Guys", and though opinions between us often differ wildly, I'm with Sean 100% on this one. It's my opinion that it should be the owners' right to do whatever they want to do with their property. If the most they would allow is to display the cartridge under lock and key, well, it's not taking up much space, so why not?

 

Obviously you disagree. But do we (CGE Guys) have to be presented as shifty or stupid (or both)? I think I've been more than fair to you in the past, yet the only time I hear from you is when it's some vent on a public forum.

 

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Digital Press ]

[NE146]

Oh no! Invasion of the IRC / Newsgroup "testy" topics!!

 

This message board (and the old Nexus') used to be such a peaceful place... *sniff*

 

allright, who am I kidding, I lap up this stuff as much as anyone else

[StanJr]

Why can't we all just get along?!

[Hakogame 箱亀]

What I'd like to see from these proto owners is confirmation of a *PRIVATE* dump (so we know that bit rot won't erase the protos forever) and a few *CLEAR* screenshots with some gameplay description. That way we'd all be pretty much satisfied, without devaluing the owners pleasure of hordeing a treasure.

[Tempest]

Same here. Screenshots and a gameplay description are the next best thing to playing the game (I guess). Games I'd like to see screeshots of are:

 

Snow White (without the Blurry lense this time)

Good Luck Charlie Brown (there is one B&W shot out there)

Ewok Adventure (I've seen two different shots, that's it)

Snowplow (if someone actually has it)

The Impossible Game (it's been found)

Pick-up (another new one that's been found)

 

Tempest

[Marco(2)]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albert:

I can certainly appreciate someone's desire to collect extremely rare and potentially one-of-a-kind prototypes. Heck, I'd love to have those games too and perhaps someday I'll shell out that kind of cash for them. However, I'm saddened that people won't release the images because they think the value of their rare prototype will decrease.

---

 

Are there still collectors that think that then?

 

I think the other posts in this thread contain the reasons for not distributing ROMs:

 

• the (non-monetary) thrill of owning something unique

• bad experiences with hardcore ROM collectors

• just enjoying something in case you paid big $$$ for it

• fear of legal issues

 

 

And, believe it or not, there seems to be a consensus about this issue that reads something like:

 

"Yes, prototype owners can do with their prototypes as they please, considering:

(a) it would be extremely unfortunate if they didn't at least dump the ROM to make sure this game will never be lost

(b) it would be very childish and asking for trouble if they would wave the game at the masses yelling "NYEH NYA NYA NYEH NYA!"

© it would be so cool and greatly appreciated if they would distribute the ROM

(d) it would be outstanding if they also put in the effort to posthumously release the game with a nice label, box, and manual, without making too much money out of it."

 

Does this about sum it up?

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[liquid_sky]

just to but my 2 cents in.. All I have ever seen from rich_vcs are attacks on various members of this board. Not to add any wood to the fire, but I think this arguing is getting us all nowhere, so why not shake hands, and get it over with??

 

as for prototypes, I view them like a new swimming pool in my backyard. If 5000 people were to bother me over ad over and over to go swim in the pool i would get angry, but then again if i needed a pool i would be in the same place as the rest.. confusing anaology eh?

[Marco(2)]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blackjax:

There are many people who hold unreleased prototypes that don't act like the kid with a new toy yelling "NYEH NYA NYA NYEH NYA!" While working on System Failure, I did get in contact with a few people who hold unreleased prototypes, and in most cases, I was politely declined.

---

 

Blackjax,

 

I appreciate your considerate posting, but I was wondering about one aspect: the numbers. You say there are many prototype owners out there that act like morons waving their carts without distributing the ROMs to the public.

 

Whereas I do know people that have not (yet) released their prototype game(s), none of them has ever acted like that - at least, AFAIK.

 

I posted this a while ago, and I'd like to repeat it. This polarized discussion, as you rightfully call it, appears to be fuelled by caricatural images of the evil prototype owner and ROM activist.

 

I'd say most parties involved aren't like that at all, even though you've dealt with greedy owners and others have gotten their share of "gimme yer R0Mz" *******s.

 

I'm convinced that, if this discussion continues to be based on these images, it will only make matters worse. Let's not let that happen.

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[mos6507]

>>

Originally posted by s-kelly:

How would you know that Snow White was shown under glass at CGE for the second year in a row Glenn? You weren't even there.

<<

 

Sean, stop with the persecution complex.

 

I'm NOT the first on this message board to point this out:

 

1st Snow White thread

 

>>

Just for your information in future wise-ass comments about CGE, Keita has nothing to do with CGE anymore.

<<

 

Good for him. He can keep himself clear of this BS.

 

>>

Furthermore, Snow White doesn't belong to John (or Keita) for that matter.

<<

 

Where did I say either of you owned them?

 

For the record, did you guys make an effort to ASK the owner if you could, let's say, have a half-hour session during the show where you could plug the game in and show it to people, or did you just assume that having the cart under glass was the best way to showcase a game nobody's seen before?

 

That would make a big difference here...

 

>>

wins it, they're hit with "gimme the ROM image?!" Now put yourself in their shoes.

<<

 

People have a right to want to play the game(or at least see it in action) even if it means the person who owns the game gets heckled. When you have a highly collectible item you almost become a public celebrity and with that comes a negative side. They should know what they are getting into.

 

>>

You just laid-out over a grand of your hard-earned money for a game and now people act

<<

 

But why did this person lay out over a grand of his hard-earned money? Nobody held a gun to his head. Was it an investment? Is he going to resell it? If so, then he's clearly made a firm statement to the classic gaming community that money was his main motivation, not saving a game for posterity.

 

>>

absolutely hiliarious! Initially, it was important only that the games were archived in case something were to happen to the data

<<

 

If something is archived but never open to the public, while it's better than nothing, to the general public it might as well not exist because they are granted no access to it.

 

It's as if there were a private library somewhere with lots of one of a kind books that was only open to a select few.

 

We're supposed to be grateful to the library owner that the books are "safe" even though we're intentionally barred from reading them?

 

That's very elitist and exclusionary don't you think?

 

Should CGE Services really be playing apologist for this behavior? I see a potential conflict of interest between presenting a museum of interactive history vs. maintaining brownie-points with their private collector's clique.

 

In the end CGE Services are just that, providing a SERVICE to people, namely the convention. It's their obligation to give people their money's worth. I was there last year to see Snow White under glass and paid a good deal of money as an exhibitor so I'm no exception. CGE Services should start listening to requests instead of just defending the status quo and going their own way. Then maybe the show will grow a little more so you can hold it somewhere other than the grimey Plaza hotel.

 

>>

In other words, if Glenn doesn't

<<

 

Are you really blind enough to think I'm the only one who wants to play these games? Do you read any messages other than mine?

 

<<

Quite frankly, you (specifically you) are one of the reasons that some of the data isn't publicly available.

>>

 

I'm also the reason why some of the data IS publically available so it kinda cancels itself out doesn't it

 

Would you be so kind as to publically list the ROMs that you feel are being intentionally withheld somehow because of me?

 

I think we'd all like to know how many more unseen and undiscovered games are out there (certainly far fewer than this same time last year).

 

Or is even this too private information to disclose??

 

>>

So Glenn, if you want to complete this little archive of yours, start laying out some cash.

<<

 

If that's what it takes (and a sad statement on the hobby if it is) then send me a figure on how much your contact will accept to sell Snow White and I'll see what I can do.

 

BTW, I just want the ROM image. He can keep the cart if he wants. I would just need assurances that the ROM image is genuine and not full of intentionally bad bytes. Given this kind of attitude it's hard to trust you guys.

 

You might as well send me a pricelist on the ROM images of other games in the stash too while you are at it.

 

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Glenn Saunders ]

[Alex]

It's been mentioned before and mentioned in this thread, but I think there are two things that would satisfy most fans/collectors about unavailable prototypes.

 

1) Confirm whether or not a cartridge has been dumped privately so that everyone knows the ROM is safe

2) Capture some quality screen shots in an emulator so that people can get an idea of the game

 

It would be nice if there were a public masterlist indicating whether an unavailable game has been dumped or not. The only drawback is the potential harrassment of those who hold the ROMs to release them, but there are certainly people who would be willing to put up with that (the actual prototype owners wouldn't have to be named). No, the prototype owners do not "owe" this to anyone, but it sure would be a nice gesture.

 

I know a few of the games that have been dumped but aren't available yet. I'll check my notes and come up with a small list, although most of them I don't know about. If anyone wants to chime in with what they know, we might take a step forward in bringing all these viewpoints together.

 

Thoughts?