Snow White

[rolenta]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tempest:

Games I'd like to see screeshots of are:

 

Snowplow (if someone actually has it)

The Impossible Game (it's been found)

---

 

Are you sure it's been found? Don't go by what it says in the Digital Press Guide that it has been found because when I questioned Joe and John about it, neither one knew how that info got in there.

 

Also, I published a description of the Impossible Game in Digital Press last year and it was included on Joe's Digital Press CD-ROM. I published a description of Snowplow on this board a few weeks ago. Both can be found in my book: ABC To The VCS.

[Dutchman2000]

This is a really sore subject, covered many times in many places. Here is my 2 cents:

 

Prototype owners basically can do whatever they want with it. Some of them I think believe that releasing a ROM image will devalue the original. Allow me to de-bunk that fact. I have a reprint of Detective Comics #27 (The first appearance of Batman) The existence of this reprint in no way replaces or devalues the original. But it enables a lot of people to read something they otherwise couldn't. ROM images of games serve the same purpose. It allows all of us to play a game we otherwise never could. The collector is never satsified with a reprint. The original is still worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Thwocker was released to us, for that I am very grateful. However since it is the only copy known to exist, it will still fetch good money.

[Tempest]

quote

People have a right to want to play the game(or at least see it in action) even if it means the person who owns the game gets heckled. When you have a highly collectible item you almost become a public celebrity and with that comes a negative side. They should know what they are getting into.

 

I can't believe you actually said that. I was agreeing with some of things you said (some), and then you go and make an idiotic statement like that. So just because I have something you want that give you the right, nay the duty, to heckle me? I seriously think you wan't to rethink that statement.

 

 

quote

But why did this person lay out over a grand of his hard-earned money? Nobody held a gun to his head. Was it an investment? Is he going to resell it? If so, then he's clearly made a firm statement to the classic gaming community that money was his main motivation, not saving a game for posterity.

 

I've laid out some serious money for a prototype before (Super Pac-Man to be exact), and I did it for one reason: I wanted the game plain and simple. I don't think anyone looks at their prototypes as a serious investment, or just buys them to resell them (although there are a few people who do that and I'm ok with it I guess). I wanted to play the game so I forked over the money to do it, if you wanted to play the game as bad as I did you could have forked over your money to do so. Your statement that money must be my only motivation because I haven't dumped it yet is ludicrous. Sound like a case of sour grapes to me.

 

This topic is getting us no where. People aren't going to change their views by btiching at each other back and forth. All we're accomplishing is getting alot of people pissed off at each other.

 

 

As for The Impossible Game, I was going on what the DP guide said. Now I'm kind of bummed that it might not exist. Oh well... BTW, I have your book with the descriptions, but I would like to see some screen shots (it just makes everything alot clearer).

 

Tempest

[slapdash]

I've been in this discussion a few times, so for the most part I will beg out of it...

 

But the idea of confirming titles with screen shots to be is a nice compromise, especially with forums like AtariAge online and 2600 Connection offline to display the stuff.

 

I encourage any prototype owners to submit screen captures to Alex & Albert and myself if they feel comfortable doing so.

[rolenta]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tempest:

I have your book with the descriptions, but I would like to see some screen shots (it just makes everything alot clearer).

---

 

I'm contemplating updating the book to include all of the homebrews and prototypes that have been found since the first edition (1995). I definately want to include screen shots if I go ahead with it.

[Tempest]

quote:

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But the idea of confirming titles with screen shots to be is a nice compromise, especially with forums like AtariAge online and 2600 Connection offline to display the stuff.

 

I encourage any prototype owners to submit screen captures to Alex & Albert and myself if they feel comfortable doing so.

---

 

Hear Hear! Well spoken Bruce! err... Russ

 

 

quote

I'm contemplating updating the book to include all of the homebrews and prototypes that have been found since the first edition (1995). I definately want to include screen shots if I go ahead with it.

 

Please do, I'd love to read that. Actually I was just reading Phoenix for the Sega Saturn content (I was thinking about getting one). Very nicely done, you did your homework. I can't believe the number of things I had forgotten about, even though they only happened 5 years ago!

 

Tempest

[Blackjax]

quote:

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I appreciate your considerate posting, but I was wondering about one aspect: the numbers. You say there are many prototype owners out there that act like morons waving their carts without distributing the ROMs to the public.

 

Whereas I do know people that have not (yet) released their prototype game(s), none of them has ever acted like that - at least, AFAIK.

---

 

And I appreciate the reply

 

However, I guess I should have elaborated a bit on the things I said in my statement - I have dealt with more than just Atari systems prototype holders, most specifically those who hold the NES prototypes and someone who holds a pair of Turbografx protos. While I'm not going to publicly slam them and name them in a public forum, there are many people who hold NES prototypes that regularly do this, and simply brag about their games to taunt and degrade anyone interested in emulation. Log onto the NESWORLD forum sometime and mention emulation if you want to see a good example of that.

 

I do believe I generalized a bit two much in my initial posting

 

 

quote:

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I posted this a while ago, and I'd like to repeat it. This polarized discussion, as you rightfully call it, appears to be fuelled by caricatural images of the evil prototype owner and ROM activist.

 

I'd say most parties involved aren't like that at all, even though you've dealt with greedy owners and others have gotten their share of "gimme yer R0Mz" *******s.

---

 

I agree with about 95% of this sentance - personally I think most of the argument is more over the general perception of the parties involved rather than the object involved, and sadly it always seems to start out the same way - someone asks about a rom image, someone else not involved with the cartridge itself swoops in to start bashing the "begging demanding ROHMZ kiddie" and then it degrades from there. Usually within a posting or two the weapon of "he paid for it, how would you feel if you did" comes out and just inflames people further.

 

and honestly, most of the time, it isn't even the prototype holder causing the nuclear bombardments of the flame wars... just others who like to spearhead attacks on their behalf

 

quote

I'm convinced that, if this discussion continues to be based on these images, it will only make matters worse. Let's not let that happen

 

Yup. Although both sides need to cool it. Yes, I may sound a little harsh, I've had a fair number of really bad incidents with some prototype holders - which I do consider private matters, rather than be childish about it however, I am going to leave those matters private.

 

I think my (wholly pro-dumping) opinion is that if the prototype is undumped and made public knowlege, like its been said in this thread before, they should know that people will ask for the dump, and that there are those who will childishly demand it.

 

Now onto probably the best suggestion that's come out of this whole mess - a few quality screenshots and a small blurb about how the game plays would probably subdue most arguments of this kind. A lot of the people asking for the protos are more interested in information about what the game is like and how it would have looked had we all been able to play it.

 

Although i'd be willing to bet that the holder of Ewok Adventure could -easliy- sell 500 copies of that game if it was released a'la Elevator Action just from it being a Star Wars game (although that might invoke a nice round of Lucasfilm Strikes Back)

[mos6507]

<<

So just because I have something you want that give you the right, nay the duty, to heckle me? I seriously think you wan't to rethink that statement.

>>

 

I think you misread it.

 

Some collector's items really are on a fine line between private commodities and historical artefacts that really should be in formal museums.

 

There are bound to be disagreements on where the item really belongs.

 

Heck, they were bugging Ralph Baer to put his Brown Box into a museum instead of leaving it in his musty basement and the guy built the thing himself!

 

Really, these people mean well, even if they rub you the wrong way.

 

Don't you think that the collectors who own, let's say a Honus Wagner card are pretty well known and are "in demand" so that people can see the card? Is it reasonable for that person to expect to keep the card permanently locked up and to never get a call about his card?

 

Don't you think that someone who owns a Tucker automobile gets requests to see the car, take it to shows, measure parts for reproductions, etc...?

 

That's the very reason why people bring their stuff to shows like CGE or California Extreme, to break away from the whole "Toy Story 2" hoarding quality to collecting and let other people share in your collection.

 

Websites are a good "safe" way to do it too, with pages that show and describe their stuff.

 

A lot of collectors relish the notoriety that these items give them in their hobbies.

 

People wondered why Curt Vendel came to World of Atari 98, for instance, since he wasn't selling anything. Well, basically it was his own traveling museum exhibit. Sure, you could call it gloating "look what I have", but at least he's there letting other people experience his stuff.

 

To me, having the game in-play or being responsible for getting the ROM in circulation is an extension of that altruism. It's something I would hope we all strive to do, and I think most people would appreciate that. While they don't HAVE to do it, and nobody is saying they do, we certainly have a right to want them to, and to express our opinion that maybe they should.

 

Of course "should" is a hot word no matter what you are talking about. Opinions differ, but in the end, if each side disagrees, there is no need getting angry that A thinks B should do X but B doesn't think he should do X so suddenly A is an ******* for thinking B should do X since hey, it's a free country and you can do whatever you want to do. Just agree to disagree and move on. That's a basic lesson in interpersonal communication that everybody's got to learn in order to avoid getting into these prolonged debates that go nowhere.

 

I expressed my opinion, granted, with some sarcasm, and the CGE guys should have strong enough egos to just accept negative feedback at face-value and not take it as a personal attack because they just become equally responsible for dragging down the thread into a useless flamewar of name-calling.

 

I was just saying that it's natural that people will make requests and they shouldn't be demonized for doing so.

[s-kelly]

Wow...this thread got a little crazy since last night.

 

Rhindle:

 

I don't think anyone is naive enough to think that by just owning the only copy of a game, they then own some sort of copyright. They do, however, have control over whether they dump the cartridge and/or release the data to the public. Nobody is questioning the legality of releasing the data.

 

In your example where Lucasfilm wanted the ROM to Ewok, they could request it and probably even demand it, the could also prevent the cartridge holder from distributing it if they chose to do so, but I don't think they could confiscate the physical cartridge.

 

Glenn:

 

quote

For the record, did you guys make an effort to ASK the owner if you could, let's say, have a half-hour session during the show where you could plug the game in and show it to people, or did you just assume that having the cart under glass was the best way to showcase a game nobody's seen before?

 

Many people are uncomfortable even putting their stuff in the museum. No, we did not specifically ask him if we could put it out where it could be played. I don't think that would be a question I'd like to ask. Now it might be possible to make a single copy of the game that would have no value and put it in the game stations. Nobody ever asked us to do that. Instead, all we get is a wise-ass comment from you that Snow White and Mail Plane were under glass. Perhaps if you would have bothered to ask us to do that, we would have. Or better yet, while you were at the show last year, maybe you could have asked if one of us would plug the game into one of the game stations for a few minutes for you to see, we would have. I know if I was asked that question politely, I would have been happy to.

 

I won't respond to the part about heckling the proto owners. Matt already said basically what I would have said anyway.

 

quote:

---

But why did this person lay out over a grand of his hard-earned money? Nobody held a gun to his head. Was it an investment? Is he going to resell it? If so, then he's clearly made a firm statement to the classic gaming community that money was his main motivation, not saving a game for posterity.

---

 

Now how could you possibly have the slightest clue why someone would pay so much for the original. Maybe he just wanted it in his collection. Maybe he does want to save it for posterity. It's not possible for him to do that without making it available to the public? I don't know Glenn, I guess you're starting to lose it. The above statement is completely void of any rational thought.

 

Snow White, in particular, was sold on eBay and open to bids from anyone. You had as much a chance to own it then as anyone else.

 

quote

We're supposed to be grateful to the library owner that the books are "safe" even though we're intentionally barred from reading them?

 

Oh I don't know about you, but I'm comfortable knowing they are "safe". Sure, I'd like to read them, but the idea that I might be able to sometime in the future is much better than not knowing where they are or if they exist. By the same token, am I going to harass the librarian to the point where he'd rather set fire to them than let me read them? Cerainly not.

 

quote

In the end CGE Services are just that, providing a SERVICE to people, namely the convention. It's their obligation to give people their money's worth. I was there last year to see Snow White under glass and paid a good deal of money as an exhibitor so I'm no exception. CGE Services should start listening to requests instead of just defending the status quo and going their own way. Then maybe the show will grow a little more so you can hold it somewhere other than the grimey Plaza hotel.

 

First of all, how are we maintaining brownie points with anyone?? You mean that if one of us archives the data to a game for it's owner, we should release the data to the public against his or her wishes just because we put on the show? Here again, I'm happy enough that the games are archived somewhere.

 

Since someone else brought up Ewok's, I'll use that as an example. OF COURSE, I'd like to get the ROM image. But my approach to obtaining it wouldn't be to email the guy saying "gimme!" I'd email him to see if he is interested in selling it. If not, I'd ask if he's had the data archived. If he has, then I'm forced to be content in the fact that it will never be lost for good and eventually I might have the opportunity to add the data to my archive.

 

quote:

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I think we'd all like to know how many more unseen and undiscovered games are out there (certainly far fewer than this same time last year).

 

Or is even this too private information to disclose??

---

 

Unfortunately, this information IS too private to disclose and you know the reason as well as I do. Before you're even finished reading this post, you'd have your email software fired-up and begin "heckling" the people who own them. Not that you'd be alone, there would be plenty of others bugging the owners as well.

 

Personally, I'd like to see a list of ROMs that were made available because of you.

 

quote

If that's what it takes (and a sad statement on the hobby if it is) then send me a figure on how much your contact will accept to sell Snow White and I'll see what I can do.

 

Why is that such a sad statement? If many people want an item of which there are only one that means the item is more valuable. That's the case with anything from a videogame cartridge to a bag full of dead cats. It doesn't say anything about the hobby.

 

As I said, Snow White was available to you on eBay just like everyone else. If you missed the auction, then I'm sorry, you missed out. It's not my fault nor the cart's owner's fault. The cartridge was sold, it's been archived, and the data isn't available publicly at present. It may be at some point, but the original isn't for sale and there's nothing you OR I can do to make the data available to everyone.

 

Sorry, I don't have a price list of the other ROM images in "the stash". The people who own them know they're value and if they wanted to sell them, I'm sure you would be welcome to make an offer just like anyone else.

 

Last but not least, none of us "CGE Guys" were responsible for sending you the corrupt Elevator Action ROM. I don't deny knowing who sent it, but it was done without our knowledge. The guy wanted to see if you'd bother checking the ROM image before slapping it online. Personally, I didn't find nearly as much humor in his experiment, but I guess he did.

[s-kelly]

In response to no one in particular...

 

The best solution to the whole ROM distribution dilemma is how Combat 2 and Elevator Action were offered at CGE. We laid-out the money for the original protos, we spent the time and money building cartridges, boxes, etc., and in the end, the people who purchased the carts at CGE essentially paid for the originals. Everyone knew going into it that the ROM images would be online within a matter of a few days, if not hours, but did you hear anyone bitching about it? Of course not. After CGE, the game collecting community at large had pitched-in and paid for the original.

 

For some, releasing the games at CGE still wasn't enough. "How can you limit it to X number of copies?", "It's not fair to release it at CGE because I can't attend", etc. etc. etc..

 

Like it or not, I have to say, this is how the release of these games is going to go in the future. It's very possible in most cases to make carts and by selling a small batch of copies, it's fair in that no one person has to foot the bill for the original prototype. CGE will be the ideal venue to make the offering so worst case is that if a game is discovered right after the show, it'll probably be a year before the game is offered and consequently the ROM image is made public. There are already titles being lined-up for CGE 2002.

[Blackjax]

I dunno if I missed it the second time around or something (I was out of the loop for a while), but wasn't Snow White the one that was on eBay with an un-winnable reserve price and the person eventually said they were just testing the waters about its value?

 

just curious

[Charlie_]

Everyone just needs to get over it...

They own it you don't and that's that. They don't owe anyone anything. I also don't believe anyone in this hobby is that selfish. I'll bet ya whatever game it is your worried about will wind up on a hard drive near you before you know it. I think planning the release of games at future shows or whatever is a great idea. It keeps the hobby fun. Admit that seeing a non publicly dumped proto gets people all worked up...And if/when it gets released we will all be happy. :-) <-see the smile?

If we had it all today, what would we look forward to tomorrow?? really.........

 

Charlie

[mos6507]

>>

No, we did not specifically ask him if we could put it out where it could be played. I don't think that would be a question I'd like to ask.

<<

 

Why not, are they so emotionally unstable that they'd slam the phone down and never speak to you again?

 

>>

Now it might be possible to make a single copy of the game that would have no value and put it in the game stations. Nobody ever asked us to do that.

<<

 

Sean, this same topic about carts under glass came up last year, as I recall.

 

Don't you guys think creatively and proactively about what you can do to enhance the show beyond just booking the keynotes?

 

It's not like there isn't a precedence for similar things. Remember when Eric Bacher's Pac Man clone was demonstrated?? He couldn't distribute the game, but he let people play it for a while. Don't you think that would help boost attendance if people knew they could at least see and play a game not in current ROM distribution?

 

Why do we have to be the ones to make these suggestions?

 

Consider it suggested--for next year.

 

Maybe get a video feed at least to pop in a VCR, or a screen-capture file like the Tempest stuff that was on Atari Arcade Hits.

 

>>

Unfortunately, this information IS too private to disclose and you know the reason as well as I do.

<<

 

I asked which games, not who owns them. Why is this too private?

 

It would be nice to know which games are technically still undiscovered or in the hands of people who have fallen off the radar entirely.

 

I'm not even that fascinated with Snow White as a player as much as I am about Pink Panther, which is supposedly much more complete. I'd like to know where that wound up.

 

BTW, even though SW is a Disney license, the story itself is public domain so unless it features imagery that is straight out of the Disney version, then you could probably get away with making carts without Disney breathing down your back.

 

<<

you'd have your email software fired-up and begin "heckling" the people who own them.

>>

 

If making a cash offer for their protos is considered heckling, then they've got a serious problem.

 

Why don't you consult with them and get back to me, since you're the only conduit to them?

 

It's part of VGAM's charter to raise cash for this very purpose.

 

Now it very well may happen that Snow White or others take the limited edition cart route, but some of us may be impatient enough not to wait and see if it shows up or not and would be willing to collectively pay off the owner now. Just for the image mind you. He'd still be able to sell the cart down the road. Not a bad deal assuming he doesn't think the cart would devalue to .50c just because a ROM image is out there.

 

<<

Personally, I'd like to see a list of ROMs that were made available because of you.

>>

 

Not me alone necessarily, but Cyberpunks as a whole:

 

-Meteroids (prototype version of Suicide Mission), available on the Stella CD 1 and 2.

-Polo (released on Stella CD 1)

-Wizard (released on VGAM)

-Kamikaze Saucers (archived earlier by myself from the programmer but released by someone else who had a different copy of the ROM)

-Combat 2 (given to us, released through VGAM)

-Realsports Basketball (given to us, released through VGAM)

-Various in-progress versions of Star Wars:The Arcade Game (released on VGAM)

-Imagic sound utility (released on VGAM)

-Beta of Dragonfire (released on VGAM)

 

Attempts:

-Miss Piggy's Wedding (lent out my programmer but the guy could not get the ROMs to read properly)

-Sky Patrol (could not read the game properly on my system. You guys had better luck.)

 

That's not taking into account stuff like the sourcecode listings from Doug Neaubauer, Bob Smith, and the Starpath stuff. Jim Nitchals did a great job saving the Starpath sources from old Apple II floppies that were about to be trashed.

 

But we really shouldn't start **** -wagging over who has done more for the hobby.

 

I really don't care who does what as long as the stuff that needs to get done gets done.

 

If you have already committed to future cart runs, it would be to your benefit to announce it earlier rather than later. You have a habit of announcing stuff last minute which is a bad idea. Even if it's not a sure thing, let's know what you'd LIKE to do for next year or the following. I think we'd be more patient if we knew which games were planned to come out when.

 

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Glenn Saunders ]

[mos6507]

<<

I dunno if I missed it the second time around or something (I was out of the loop for a while), but wasn't Snow White the one that was on eBay with an un-winnable reserve price and the person eventually said they were just testing the waters about its value?

>>

 

A lot of times they use Ebay as a way to advertise the product and then they close the auction offline as a scam to avoid Ebay getting its fee. I don't know if it happened in that case.

 

I have the screenshots on my HD somewhere that accompanied the auction.

 

I make a point of archiving these images anytime I see one of these auctions. I also have images of those mysterious Activision games that were up too.

 

Maybe Alex can put them into the database archive as official screenshots (for now).

[Charlie_]

Glenn- So if you purchased a "rom image" would you then freely release it?

 

Charlie

ps-sorry if this was answered in a previous post. I didnt want to re-read the whole thing :-)

[mos6507]

<<

I might have the opportunity to add the data to my archive.

>>

 

For the record, and I'll assume you are telling the truth, while you may not physically own all these protos, don't you already HAVE the data in your archive? Don't tell me you helped them dump these uncirculated ROMs and didn't nab a copy for yourself, John, and your other buddies in the process.

 

In an earlier thread on RGVC it seemed like you guys WERE the "safe place" these ROM images were being stored in.

[mos6507]

>>

Glenn- So if you purchased a "rom image" would you then freely release it?

<<

 

Of course, that would be the immediate goal.

 

I have kept all my personal net profits from Cyberpunks in a separate DBA account and haven't transferred much of it to my own account, so it's been slowly accumulating.

 

I'd be willing to put a considerable amount of money from this into the buyout, even if I knew I'd not make it back in the end.

 

But I don't think I have enough money to buy the ROM image just by myself. I'd need to ask around for donations and pool it.

 

(There are some people in this hobby who seem to have a lot more disposable income than I do...)

 

If the donation pool were extended to the general classic gaming public then they'd be reasonable to expect something more from their $30-50 than the pride in getting the ROM freed up for distribution.

 

So I think a cool idea would be, after getting the ROM image, if it were incomplete ala Elevator Action, to put the Stellalist guys to task to disassemble it in order to complete the game, and THEN release it on cartridge. Now that would be a first...

 

Who'd like to see that happen?

[Scott Stilphen]

>>BTW, even though SW is a Disney license, the story itself is public domain so unless it features imagery that is straight out of the Disney version, then you could probably get away with making carts without Disney breathing down your back.

>>

 

Doesn't it say "Disney's Snow White" on the title screen?

[Tempest]

Glenn,

 

Sorry if I misunderstood your comment about heckling people for roms. Sometimes I get a little hyped up about things I feel strongly about and in case you haven't noticed, I like prototypes (mostly for cataloging versions but that's another story).

 

No hard feelings I hope.

 

Tempest

[Tempest]

I believe it does say Disney's Snow White on the title screen. I think you'd have a probelm there.

 

BTW, does anyone have a copy of the description of the gameplay? I remember the guy who was auctioning it off had a paragraph or two on it.

 

Tempest

[Rhindle The Red]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tempest:

I believe it does say Disney's Snow White on the title screen. I think you'd have a probelm there.

---

 

And the graphics probably bear a resemblance to the Disney version, as well. And Disney takes that stuff seriously. Remember Rob Lowe?

 

On a more serious note, Tempest: This whole discussion has got me thinking.

 

Earlier, I mentioned the possibility that Lucasfilm or Parker Bros. could force the owner of the Ewoks ROM to dump it so they could archive it, reproduce it, release it, whatever. But I didn't speak of the status of the prototype itself.

 

Have you considered the possibility that the prototypes could be considered stolen goods?

 

Think about it: however they made their way into the hands of collectors, they were never meant to go outside the development system of their manufacturers. Most everyone knows most prototypes did not get out of their respective companies' hands legally. And if they didn't know it, they must have suspected it.

 

Now, whoever kept these prototypes (be it the programmer, a media member who got a sample, etc.) for whatever reason (forgot, they never called for them back, etc.) they were not supposed to keep it. It was supposed to be returned to the owner (in our example, Parker Bros.). Unless there was a company directive saying that the stuff was free to be taken, it is stolen goods.

 

The statute of limitations would have long run out on the original 'theft', of course, but that does not change the fact that the prototype (the actual hardware) still belongs to the company that assembled it, Parker Bros., and that they may have a legal right to demand its return, regardless of how or when it was acquired. Ask Ken@Activision what Activision's attitude would be towards a programmer or tester who took home a burned copy of a game in progress. Even if the game was subsequently cancelled (maybe even more so) would they still not view that as their property? Even if it was years later, is it not still legally theirs? Just because time passes, ownership is not transerred.

 

I'm not trying to cause trouble or worry you or anything (I'm sure no one at Parker Bros., Infogrames, etc. cares about their twenty year old prototypes). It's just something I believe you should think about.

[Albert]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rhindle The Red:

Ask Ken@Activision what Activision's attitude would be towards a programmer or tester who took home a burned copy of a game in progress. Even if the game was subsequently cancelled (maybe even more so) would they still not view that as their property? Even if it was years later, is it not still legally theirs? Just because time passes, ownership is not transerred.

---

 

Having worked on several games in the modern game industry, it's very common for people to take copies of in-development games home. Especially these days when all you have to do is burn your game onto a CD. Where I've worked this has been encouraged, especially once the game becomes playable. Game testers don't come cheap--if you can use your programmers, designers, artists, etc. to test the game all the better! Especially if they're doing it on their own time!

 

I have various and sundry alpha and beta copies of all the games I've been involved with and I'd imagine this is pretty typical of most programmers. Heck, I've been an external beta tester on several games and I've never been asked for any CDs back after a game has shipped.

 

The main reason I could see companies like Atari wanting their prototype cartridges back is that those EPROM cartridges were expensive back in those days and they could re-use them for future projects. Of course, they would also want to prevent the games from being leaked before the retail version hit stores, but that's no different than today. At least back then not many people could copy games. I'm glad to say that Deus Ex didn't reach isonews.com until after the game hit store shelves.

 

..Al

[Rhindle The Red]

quote:

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Originally posted by Albert:

Having worked on several games in the modern game industry, it's very common for people to take copies of in-development games home. Especially these days when all you have to do is burn your game onto a CD. Where I've worked this has been encouraged, especially once the game becomes playable. Game testers don't come cheap--if you can use your programmers, designers, artists, etc. to test the game all the better! Especially if they're doing it on their own time!

 

I have various and sundry alpha and beta copies of all the games I've been involved with and I'd imagine this is pretty typical of most programmers. Heck, I've been an external beta tester on several games and I've never been asked for any CDs back after a game has shipped.

 

The main reason I could see companies like Atari wanting their prototype cartridges back is that those EPROM cartridges were expensive back in those days and they could re-use them for future projects. Of course, they would also want to prevent the games from being leaked before the retail version hit stores, but that's no different than today. At least back then not many people could copy games. I'm glad to say that Deus Ex didn't reach isonews.com until after the game hit store shelves.

 

..Al

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Well, my point wasn't that they never should have left. There were plenty of good reasons for the prototypes to leave, but they still should have come back. Even if only for the value of the hardware, they still belonged to the original owners.

 

Even if the companies you beta tested for didn't ask for the disks back, didn't they require you to agree not to sell them? If they did, the product becomes illegal again once it is sold, and if they didn't, then they are just fools. I would assume the same would apply to product you worked on.

 

I don't profess to know about the inner workings of game development houses, I just wanted to point out the possibilities.

 

Maybe I just worry too much...

[Rhindle The Red]

quote:

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Originally posted by rich_vcs:

Do you think Saunders' rants are o.k.?

If not, why do you get up in arms when I defend the other side?

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I don't know, Saunders posts here a lot and only seems to 'rant' when he feels strongly about an issue.

 

The last time I checked you had posted here only 7 times, all but one of which have been attacks on others in one form or another.

[Albert]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rhindle The Red:

Even if the companies you beta tested for didn't ask for the disks back, didn't they require you to agree not to sell them? If they did, the product becomes illegal again once it is sold, and if they didn't, then they are just fools. I would assume the same would apply to product you worked on.

 

I don't profess to know about the inner workings of game development houses, I just wanted to point out the possibilities.

 

Maybe I just worry too much...

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I think you're worrying too much over this, especially where the old Atari prototypes are concerned. Yes, most employment contracts and Non-Disclosure Agreements prohibit you from distributing any confidential materials you may acquire while working with said company. And I'm sure most of these contracts also require you to return the materials when employment ceases or the event necessitating the NDA is completed.

 

Most of the time these unfinished programs are not of much interest or value to anyone except the people working to make a finished product. The most sensitive period of development would be after the game has gone into beta, as this represents a period of time when most of the game should function properly so a pirate who got his hands on the beta and played it through might not purchase your game (that's not to say he'd purchase it anyway, but for the sake of argument let's assume there's a chance he would have). Plus he'll probably help distribute it further.

 

Unfortunately, this is also the period of time when the game is distributed to the largest number of people before it ships. You have all the people on the development team, internal QA testing (outside the immediate development team), your publisher's QA department, possibly external testers, marketing, members of the press, and so forth. And when the duplicators finally get their hands on it the game could be leaked then as well (and this seems to happen pretty frequently).

 

I have never given out any of the betas for games I've worked on and no one has ever asked for them. Once the final game has been released there's not much interest in them. Perhaps 20 years down the road there might be, but I highly doubt it. There's not much fun in playing a beta of a game like Deus Ex that you probably can't finish, will probably crash on you, and doesn't really have many visual/audio differences from the final game.

 

Now, if Deus Ex (sorry to keep using this as an example, but it's the most recent game I shipped) had never shipped for whatever reason, then the beta probably would be interesting to have a copy of. But these days if a game gets to beta it usually ends up getting shipped, even if it's a bug-ridden piece of garbage not worth the CD it's pressed on. In the days of the 2600 where it only took a few months to develop a game and usually by only one person, cancelling a 2600 game wasn't nearly as large a financial disaster as cancelling a game today is.

 

Between that reason, the crash and certainly others, there seem to be a very high number of Atari 2600 games that were never released. Which is great for collectors because new games are being discovered for the 2600 even today. It's a mystery how many of these games find their way into collectors' hands. Certainly some of them arrive on the scene directly from the collections (or closets) of the people who wrote them.

 

So much time has passed and there's so little value in these games to whatever companies might still have the rights to them that they'll probably never care about these prototypes in a strong enough way to take someone to court. I'm not even going to pretend to be a lawyer here, so I won't speculate on who might prevail in such a case. Certainly there must be some precedent, maybe not with Atari 2600 prototypes, but probably something similar.

 

Enough rambling. Maybe people will forget about Snow White until it shows up at CGE2K2.

 

..Al