Shocktaught Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 Hi I'm new here. Anyways. I was wondering why someone hasn't tried to build a smart media card reader into a compatible 2600 cartridge? That way you could store all your games on one smart media card and save wear on your cartridges and port. Of course it would have to have it's own hardware that can interpret and load the cart via a LCD menu. Other features could be added like a save game feature. This would be a cool thing to have on other classic consoles as well. Even a C64 could use one. Shocktaught Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari70s Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 Huh? waht was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shocktaught Posted September 9, 2001 Author Share Posted September 9, 2001 quote: Originally posted by atari70s: Huh? waht was that? You don't know what a smart media card is? It is storage medium used on digital cameras, portable mp3 players, etc. They can store data from 8 to 64 MB. Basically you could fit a *alot* of game ROM files on one 8MB card. If you had a cartridge with a smart media card slot you could access the files. The cartridge could copy the ROM file from the smart media card to local RAM (built into the cartridge) which the Atari could access like a standard ROM based cartridge. Of course the RAM built into the cart would have to be set up to look like a standard ROM to the Atari's CPU. Basically before you plug the cart in or turn on your Atari you select a game from an LCD screen on the Smart Media cartridge. The games are stored and accessed through the Smart Media card itself which is inserted into a slot on the cartridge. Am I making sense now? Shocktaught Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osbo Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 why someone didn't do it? Because sounds expensive, and 'coz you don't have market for that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shocktaught Posted September 9, 2001 Author Share Posted September 9, 2001 quote: Originally posted by osbo: why someone didn't do it? Because sounds expensive, and 'coz you don't have market for that... Well I didn't think that it would be mass marked probably more of an enthusiast type market. Which is why I suggested carts for other consoles. And from what I understand it isn't cheap either to make your own carts with eprom burners so that would solve that problem. Here is a rough sketch of the idea I had for those confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid_sky Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 Thanks for the picture for clarification. I think you shoud chech out the Cuttle Cart. It might help you get even more ideas for this invention. Be warned, people gripe about 300 dollars being too much for a VCSp, so you will probally need to find a way to mak this invention cheaper, unless it was just going to be made for your own use. EPROM burners are very very costly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari70s Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 u should make one that allows you to copy all over that way a MEGA version htatcopy 2600 ,5200 , 7800, 8 bit , to 64 bit jag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted September 9, 2001 Share Posted September 9, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Shocktaught: Hi I'm new here. Anyways. I was wondering why someone hasn't tried to build a smart media card reader into a compatible 2600 cartridge? That way you could store all your games on one smart media card and save wear on your cartridges and port. Of course it would have to have it's own hardware that can interpret and load the cart via a LCD menu. Other features could be added like a save game feature. This would be a cool thing to have on other classic consoles as well. Even a C64 could use one. I like the idea, but it'll probably be too cost-prohibitive to develop and manufacture. But I'd love to be proven wrong.. And rather than Smart Media, I'd much rather see it use Compact Flash cards, as I use them all the time between my digital camera, Cassiopeia E125 (PocketPC) and laptop. Plus you can get them in larger capacities. This is basically another version of what the Cuttle Cart does, but without being tethered to the computer to load games. Would be nice and portable in that regard. Would the LCD screen be able to draw enough power from the 2600 to operate? The menu could also be done on-screen somehow. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze_ro Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 I think a better idea would be a cartridge that could be loaded with multiple games (via a computer I suppose), and then would provide a menu when put into the Atari. Basically, I don't like the idea of requiring a special reader for all this. Also, multi-cart games with menu systems have been done before, so this should be entirely possible. The computer-transfer software would probably be the hardest part. As has been mentioned, the Cuttle Cart (And to a lesser extent, the Supercharger) is a similar idea too. Instead of using smart cards though, you could put a hundred games on a CD and use that instead. Of course, you need a CD player... but you can use any audio source, so computers and tapes are fine too. (At first I thought you were proposing memory cards (like the PSX and N64)... which would be pointless for a cartridge based system. I still think it's stupid that the N64 uses this since any cartridge worth a damn *should* just use a battery back up or something) --Zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blyind Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 can someone give me a link to the cuttle cart site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osbo Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 I'd like better the idea of a cart with a bunch of games, like the one a guy from Chile did with an Atari clon with 160 games or something... that's something nice (I miss my 8 games cart!!! grrrrr) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankg Posted September 10, 2001 Share Posted September 10, 2001 You can find the Cuttle Cart here -- Cuttle Cart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shocktaught Posted September 10, 2001 Author Share Posted September 10, 2001 I checked out the Cuttle Cart and it looks pretty neat. But it would get cumbersome after a while to have to offload files individually in audio format. Reminds me of the tape drive on a C64 but in cartridge format. hehe. I got the idea for a smart media based cartridge after looking at my Rio 500 and thinking that heck its compact enough to work as a cartridge. Another idea would be to utilize the USB port on the MP3 player itself. A cartridge that could hook up via USB cable to your computer or MP3 device. If that is even possible. Come to think of it. The Cuttle Cart may work from MP3 as well, I don't know how audio compression would affect the data though. Shocktaught Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mot Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 Have you all seen this thing that lets you down load Game Boy Advanced Romz from the web and play them on your GBA? Sometimes you have to patch the romz to make them work on the actual GBA. I know everyone has seen Sean Kelley's Multicarts with 2600, 5200, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze_ro Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Shocktaught: The Cuttle Cart may work from MP3 as well, I don't know how audio compression would affect the data though. There's no reason it wouldn't work. Any compression would have to be VERY lossy to screw up the data enough to confuse the Cuttle Cart/Supercharger. The data is actually quite simple, and (from what I know) the way it's handled by the Cuttle Cart is actually quite tolerant. Of course, since the wav files created from a binary aren't terribly large, compression isn't terribly necessary (Is it possible to load non-mp3 files into a Rio?) --Zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 What kind of encoding on MP3 (or WMA) is guaranteed to work on the Cuttle Cart? They are both lossy compressions which I don't trust. There needs to be a lossless compression standard which would work with hybrid MP3 CD-ROM players like the RIO VOLT. Then you could easily break the 99 track barrier of redbook audio CDs and organize the files into subdirectories. If the RIO VOLT supported WAV files then you could store them as 22KHZ mono 8-bit which saves space. In my experience this is sufficient for the Supercharger (as that's what the Amiga audio does when playing the output of Makewav). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nateo Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 Why hasn't anybody put a save battery into a 2600 cart so you can save games. This would be a good idea for those 2600 RPGs we we're talking about a while back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Shocktaught: I checked out the Cuttle Cart and it looks pretty neat. But it would get cumbersome after a while to have to offload files individually in audio format. Reminds me of the tape drive on a C64 but in cartridge format. hehe. It's much faster than the classic tape drives. They were generally set at a very low data rate to ensure reliability on lousy tapes. Since you were saving data errors were more of a problem. To add some perspective, most 2600 games will load in around 5 seconds. quote: Originally posted by Shocktaught: I got the idea for a smart media based cartridge after looking at my Rio 500 and thinking that heck its compact enough to work as a cartridge. Another idea would be to utilize the USB port on the MP3 player itself. A cartridge that could hook up via USB cable to your computer or MP3 device. If that is even possible. Come to think of it. The Cuttle Cart may work from MP3 as well, I don't know how audio compression would affect the data though. I don't think it's that no one has thought of this, only that no one has built it. I have most of the design work done for a custom 7800 that uses multimedia cards to store the games, and then selects them via a menu and can play all 2600 and 7800 games. The smart media card and menu software were updated using a serial interface. I don't think I'll be finishing it any time soon though. An audio interface would not have been my first choice on the Cuttle Cart, but when the Intellicart came out so many people complained about how evil it was to have a serial interface and that audio was the only way to go. So I built it with an audio interface, which with the small size of the Atari games is a suitable interface. It also made it easy to be backwards compatible with the Supercharger. (Of course what's the number one complaint against the Cuttle Cart?? That it's interface is audio and not serial or USB.) USB is a very "expensive" protocol in terms of the software. It's unlikely the 2600 would be able to implement USB on it's own. This then requires an on board controller to handle the USB interface, or a very large PLD that can hold a USB implementation. You also need a clock installed in the cart, which adds RF noise. It all starts adding up in terms of board space, power use, and money. You'll notice that the gameboy flash cards are quite pricey. And they have the advantage of buying in BULK. The same chip used in the old gameboy color 64Mb flash card costs me $55.00 each. It simply must be bought in bulk be affordable. As for just plugging the card into the cart, but programming it somewhere else, you still need the logic built into the cart to read the flash card. For multimedia cards this is a serial interface, for compact flash it's a full ATA/IDE interface. The chips used in the gameboy carts have the advantage of being a simple parallel interface, which would be fairly easy to use. But again cost adds up. Just building the cart will still be expensive, as any small run electronics are. Then people need to purchase a flash card, and a means of programming it, etc. etc. I get asked by some people why the Cuttle Cart isn't battery backed? The technical reason is that the CPLD used in the Cuttle Cart does not allow for this. But it's also something that I specifically do NOT design for. I intentionally make my products in such a way that they cannot be the vehicle for illegal distribution of copyrighted material. You could not hand someone a Cuttle Cart or Intellicart with a game already programmed into it. Yes, it's subtle but it does matter to me. I try to do things right, which is why I obtained a license from Bridgestone Multimedia even after I had replaced all the Supercharger audio routines with new ones. Ok, this is pretty darn long, and I've probably bored you all to death, but I'm going to make people aware of a trend in electronics that will limit future devices for the Atari 2600 and other classic systems. Most modern devices (CPLDs,FPGAs,SRAM, Microcontrollers) are being designed for a 3 volt power system. This requires level shifters for connection to a five volt system, which is a pain when you have a bus that is both input and output. Already there is a premium price attached to new parts that work at five volts. It's the manufacturer's way of saying, "Five volts is dead - move on." (For example, the chip used in the gameboy cards mentioned above, that costs $55.00, can be had in it's three volt version for around $20.00.) Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Ze_ro: There's no reason it wouldn't work. Any compression would have to be VERY lossy to screw up the data enough to confuse the Cuttle Cart/Supercharger. The data is actually quite simple, and (from what I know) the way it's handled by the Cuttle Cart is actually quite tolerant. Actually MP3s must be recorded at a low compression ratio to work in the Cuttle Cart, or they do start to mask vital information. This is especially true at the Cuttle Cart's highest data rate of 11kHz for a 1 bit. But yes, the audio files are all really small, and the redbook limit of 99 tracks for an audio CD is the chief annoyance if you want to play all the games. Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osbo Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by C. Schell: Actually MP3s must be recorded at a low compression ratio to work in the Cuttle Cart, or they do start to mask vital information. This is especially true at the Cuttle Cart's highest data rate of 11kHz for a 1 bit. But yes, the audio files are all really small, and the redbook limit of 99 tracks for an audio CD is the chief annoyance if you want to play all the games. Chad you said it... who's gonna play 99 games? I have a cd with 7-8 games that I really like to play 'em in the VCS. The process from .bin to make the sound, and burn the cd, it's kinda bored... so heck... I burned down all the Starpath games and that's it. Just my two cents.. Osbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze_ro Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 quote: Originally posted by C. Schell: I intentionally make my products in such a way that they cannot be the vehicle for illegal distribution of copyrighted material. You could not hand someone a Cuttle Cart or Intellicart with a game already programmed into it. Yes, it's subtle but it does matter to me. I try to do things right, which is why I obtained a license from Bridgestone Multimedia even after I had replaced all the Supercharger audio routines with new ones. I don't know that this would be terribly likely... are you worried people will buy some rare prototype off eBay, and then find out it was a re-labelled Cuttle Cart? Hell, I'd rater have the Cuttle Cart than most prototypes If there was a really obvious battery clip stuck on the side where a 9-volt battery stuck in, that would probably work fine. --Zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mot Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 I am full of links on this. This page shows you how to make a ~ cheep cart for Sega Master System. You can hook to your computer and download the data to the cart and then flip a switch for the battery to keep the rom in the cart so you can then use on the SMS it's self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mot Posted September 11, 2001 Share Posted September 11, 2001 And one more site to modify a 7800 to read and upload files (~10x faster then Supercharger) to a modified cart. You will have to make a 'mod-chip' for the bios. This will do both 2600 and 7800 carts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cschell Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Ze_ro: I don't know that this would be terribly likely... are you worried people will buy some rare prototype off eBay, and then find out it was a re-labelled Cuttle Cart? Hell, I'd rater have the Cuttle Cart than most prototypes No, I'm not worried about someone trying to pass the Cuttle Cart off as a rare cart - there are much easier ways to do that. It's more a legal issue of making sure that my products are completely legitimate. It's unfortunate the state that the classic gaming ROMs are in legally at this time. I really wish that the rights holders would either release them to the public domain, or grant a not for profit usage license to everyone if they don't intend to do anything with them. The Intellivision is nice because there is a group, Intellivision Productions, actively securing the rights to the ROMs and providing a legal means of obtaining them. I think that a 30 dollar CD with the ROMs, an emulator, and a lot of background info is a good deal and a good thing for the hobby. (And the Intellicart is officially endorsed by Intellivision Productions.) It looks like Activision is going to be doing something similar in the near future, I think that's great as well. I wish Infogrames would also provide a similar package. Heck, if they just put up a website that accepted credit card payments of say $10-$15 to download a zip file containing all the ROMs and license of ownership I know that I would happily purchase it because I'd feel better knowing that I legally owned the ROMs. A lack of non-volatile storage is a very minor point I know, and in the end might not make any difference. However, it matters to me, so that's how I do the designs. If others strongly disagree with my viewpoint, and must have non-volatile storage, then they don't buy the product. Makes sense to me. Chad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mot Posted September 12, 2001 Share Posted September 12, 2001 Would it be posible to take this $120 thing have a GBA to 2600 cart that wires the low data and address lines to the 2600? You could even have dip switches for multi-carts (like Sean Kelley's Multicarts) to enable upper address lines in chucks of 4K (or 8K). Yes it would be nice to see a display of the game names but this idea would be very simple to make (if it works). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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