Marco(2) Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Ben, I'm curious about that too Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted September 25, 2001 Author Share Posted September 25, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Tempest: Is the Atari proto the same game? I assume it has a different title screen (or no title screen). I I think it's the same game. The opening screen just says "Rabbit Transit" on top of the playing field. No Atari copyright notice in sight. Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 >> Any Cyberpunk reading this? << Release it if you want if it indeed is an altered ROM from Atari. The rights are contestable on it, so I can't claim that Bridgestone Entertainment owns this particular version of the game for certain anymore than Infogrames does. If the ROM image is identical to the one on the CD then I would ask that it not be distributed. Atari at one point was thinking of putting Starpath games on cart. This would be relatively easy for the games that don't exploit Supercharger RAM, where the banking scheme could be converted over to a ROM banking method. Maybe some code would have to get realigned. I don't know what timetable that was. It might have been post-crash when they relaunched the VCS and the Tramiels had certain rights on Epyx holdings from the Lynx deal. I believe the wording was, exclusive usage on all Epyx titles for Atari systems, and since Epyx bought out Starpath, that would include them. Exclusive usage is a sticky term though, and does not equate to copyright ownership per se. For the nonprofit CD we gained permission from both JTS-Atari and Bridgestone. For the followup CD we didn't bother contacting Hasbro as we felt that any remaining legal claim the legacy of Atari had on these titles was tenuous at best, certainly the case after passing the torch to Infogrames. I really doubt that Infogrames could dig up the appropriate paperwork. So in the meantime, outside of a court case to decide this matter conclusively, Cyberpunks recognize Bridgestone Multimedia as the complete owners of the Starpath intellectual properties and the games' ROM images as released on tape, as well as the Colecovision Mindmaster proto, but since that's not on our CD, it doesn't impact us. (Not that anything impacts us that much anymore--we are donating another 100 CDs to Chad after all.) Bridgestone Multimedia may feel differently but that's our stance. [ 09-25-2001: Message edited by: Glenn Saunders ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Pitfall Harry: What is the legal standing of a frowning Cyberpunk? Ben It's not us that would do anything. It would be Bridgestone Multimedia after they were made aware. Whether they would go so far as to file any legal action is uncertain, but they know what they own the rights to and they do receive royalties to this very day on these properties for every CD we sell. So technically they have a financial motivation, however small, for protecting their holdings. There has also been some changes in management between the original CD (which was nonprofit, BTW) and now--so any implicit permission Bob Colbert was once given to put the games on his site may be null and void today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 quote: from the Cyberpunks website:Does this mean the Starpath games are public domain? It took some subtle negotiation to get the permission to produce this CD legally and by the book. This CD does not signal that the games are suddenly public domain or freely distributable, therefore I will frown upon any effort to upload the Starpath games onto web sites I was about to release the ROM of the Atari version of Rabbit Transit, but then stumbled upon this. Would there be a problem if I released it? Anyone know exactly what rights were given to the Cyberpunks? Any Cyberpunk reading this? Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 Is the Atari proto the same game? I assume it has a different title screen (or no title screen). I'm still curious as to how and why Atari decided they were going to release it (was this one of those late 80's releases like the Coleco games?) Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 Thanks for your answes, but - sorry to be dumb - I'm not sure I understand the whole picture already. I'm wondering about two things still: 1. why would Bridgestone Entertainment be bothered about the release of something that Atari apparently had some right to (we are talking about an Atari lab loaner)? 2. why has Bridgestone made you the guardian of the Supercharger ROMs? Or, put differently, why don't they look after their property themselves, like any owner would? Why is this part of your agreement? Please understand I'm not in this to stir trouble, just want to know what I might be getting myself into. Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 Hi all, Can anyone tell me if there's any tool available that lets me compare two ROMs? Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 I was jsut using the file compare utility that came with DOS. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 Well... ... they're not the same. The Starpath bin is 32k and the Atari bin is 8k. Hm, I guess I really need to play both games. Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eckhard Stolberg Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 The starpath binary only uses 6K of those 32K. A simple file compare wouldn't work in this case. But the starpath version of Rabbit Transit uses the supercharger type of bankswitching and also some of the supercharger RAM for selfmodifying code. If the Atari version is running on a normal EPROM cart, then the binary must have been modified. Ciao, Eckhard Stolberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 Hi Eckhard, Thanks for this info. Looks like it can be distributed then. Or am I still overlooking something? Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 So the question remains, did the programmer (Brian McGhie) start the game at Atari and take it to Starpath or vice versa? Anyone ever talk to him? Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 >> 1. why would Bridgestone Entertainment be bothered about the release of something that Atari apparently had some right to (we are talking about an Atari lab loaner)? << I don't know if they would be bothered or not, although it might possibly be within their rights to insist that the ROM image be taken offline depending on one's legal interpretation. I'm just saying that _I_ wouldn't be bothered about the Rabit Transit ROM (if the ROM image were different) based on my own personal opinions on who owns what, and therefore they wouldn't even be notified about it so they probably would never even find out let alone formulate an opinion. When talking about classic game properties and who owns the rights to them, it's almost always in some degree of doubt because of the various bankruptcies, acquisitions after acquisitions, lost paperwork, loopholes, and outdated contracts. That doesn't keep companies from releasing classic game-related products, but they do so knowing that in some cases they may be making a calculated risk, that some other entity could put a claim on it based on some ancient business deal (like Infogrames might have related to old Atari paperwork) or force them to dig up enough paperwork of their own to validate their claim of ownership. So it's really about perceived degree of certainty of ownership more than strict letter of the law because in the end nobody wants to get dragged to court. I believe Bridgestone owns the catalog 'enough' for them to act as the undisputed owner--insofar as protecting copyright and issuing licensing agreements. I'm sure they feel the same. Until it's contested in court, that's pretty much the way it should be regarded. >> 2. why has Bridgestone made you the guardian of the Supercharger ROMs? Or, put differently, why don't they look after their property themselves, like any owner would? Why is this part of your agreement? << I don't want anyone to think that I'm going out of my way to play internet policeman. I'm not. It's just that it's far more likely that one of the Cyberpunks will stumble over a classic gaming site with Starpath ROM images than one of the Bridgestone guys who are really into religious software these days, not classic games. So if we do, and the maintainer of the site refuses to take down the ROMs, then we will notify Bridgestone. What they do after that is up to them, not us. They may do nothing, but that's as far as we will go to try to (at least temporarily) keep the ROMs off the net. We do NOT own the copyrights. The Starpath CD is a legally licensed commercial product with per-unit royalties paid to the original copyright holders, unlike, let's say, Combat II, Secret Agent, the Atarisoft Colecovision titles, or Worship the Woodgrain. As such, both Cyberpunks and Bridgestone have a clear (albeit small) financial motivation to protect the copyrights because both parties profit from the sales of new Starpath CDs, and could lose profit from the ROMs being in heavy web circulation. So it's no different from any software publisher trying to keep a pirate copy of his software (which is still on the store shelves) from being spread around for free. I know all this seems odd considering that all the rest of the 2600 catalog is freely traded under the noses of people like Ken from Activision, but it's a very unique situation and I hope people will continue to respect that at least long enough for us to liquidate our remaining stock of CDs. I don't expect everyone to like this situation or to agree with it or any of the related points. But that's our official position. The CD is inexpensive enough that we feel we're being fair to the classic userbase by trying to make sure one needs to have a CD to acquire these games. There are definitely enough to satisfy current and future demand. In fact this weekend I'm scheduled to go down to San Diego to donate another 100 CDs for Chad's 2nd run of Cuttle Carts so it's not like we're being totally money-grubbing. We just trying to move our CDs out as best we can. [ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Glenn Saunders ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted September 26, 2001 Author Share Posted September 26, 2001 Glenn, Thanks for explaining the Cyberpunks position on this. If Eckhard is right in his assumption, and these bins are different, would you tell Bridgestone about it if I released the Atari ROM? Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted September 27, 2001 Share Posted September 27, 2001 << Thanks for explaining the Cyberpunks position on this. If Eckhard is right in his assumption, and these bins are different, would you tell Bridgestone about it if I released the Atari ROM? << Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted September 27, 2001 Share Posted September 27, 2001 << Anyone ever talk to him? >> Brian was one of the Starpath guys who was never located during the Starpath CD/Stella at 20 projects. Never found Bob Brown either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted September 27, 2001 Author Share Posted September 27, 2001 Okay then Look like we're all set for the release of the Atari version of Rabbit Transit. Maybe not much of a shock to the 2600 community, but it appears there are some noticeable differences between the Starpath and Atari game. On a sidenote, I must say that this copyright 'issue' kinda surprised me. Most people keep telling not to worry about this, and yet, the issue was right there. I know, most copyright holders are far less concrete than in this case, but still. I must say too, Glenn, that I was surprised that you, of all people, turned out to be the one that would possibly have problems with the release of a ROM. I'm glad though this all worked out without problems in the end. Oh, and on a final note, I was surprised too that so little people joined in this thread. Is everyone tired of discussing ROM releases? Nobody looking forward to playing this Atari game perhaps? Just curious Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I've been lurking on this thread, and I'm certainly not tired of discussing ROM releases. I understood that this ROM was no different from the Starpath version so was somewhat less interesting to me. Although the whole situation was kind of vague to me in the first place, thanks for bringing all this info to light to help clear things up. It will certainly be on our news page when you're ready to release it, and we'll have a new entry for the cartridge version in our database. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Marco, I can't wait to play this version of Rabbit Transit. I had the original in 1983, and still have it as well as a sealed mint copy. Thanks for bringing this to light. Best, JL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 I haven't piped up until now, because I'm only reading this thread now. I just got to play the ROM version this weekend, and it doesn't look, sound or play any different than I remember. I suspect that the only real differences in the image files would be related to working on a cartridge. I'm fairly positive that it's exactly the same otherwise. If the Supercharger BIN is 32K, are we sure that it's not just 8K copied four times? I'm also one of the CyberPuNKS, and I'd say that I don't mind this being released, even though it probably isn't different at all for the most part. Maybe it'll encourage others to figure out how to put other Starpath games on cartridge, just for the fun of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyXB Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 Sorry, my english is not so good, and I not read all. So I ask is the ROM out yet or not? Thx for answer. Matthias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 We don't have it yet, but it should be coming soon. We'll post news on the main page when it's available, so you'll be sure to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted October 1, 2001 Author Share Posted October 1, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Russ Perry Jr: I just got to play the ROM version this weekend, and it doesn't look, sound or play any different than I remember Well well... now where did you get that ROM? I sent the ROM to four people so far - I had no idea people were so hot to play or distribute these things Anyway, I'll be sending the ROM to Alex in a minute, so everyone can enjoy it (sorry I didn't send it any sooner, was sick last weekend). Have fun! Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco(2) Posted October 1, 2001 Author Share Posted October 1, 2001 As for differences between the two versions of Rabbit Transit, here's what two carefuly picked test players ( ) had to say about it: "Yeah, there's a few minor differences with it. Besides the different title screens, yours plays "Pop Goes the Weasel" in the attract mode (at power up), and the platform colors on the 2nd screen are always dark green. The "ball" that is dropped doesn't change the original color when it falls either." "Thanks for the ROM. It indeed is different from the Starpath version. The Atari version starts out with cycling through some variations of the first game screen. The starpath versions doesn't do that. Also, even though the Atari version still says "©83 STARPATH" on the title screen, the logo for the game name is much bigger. And finally the Atari version only uses two fixed colours in the screen where the rabbit has to hop on all the platforms. In the starpath version the colours change between levels and it can at least show three different colours for the platforms, while the Atari version only can do two. I think this is because the Atari version doesn't have the extra RAM to store the different colours." So, it's up to you to discover any more differences (the ROM should be out soon, it's up to Alex now) Cheers, Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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