emkay Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 emkay, everytime I get curious how you create those instruments...can you send me the RMT file for these cool flutes. I think it's time to throw away all the test tunes and write some real music with the new instruments... I would appreciate that thousand times.... but where to begin? At first bug-free emulation-libraries have to be available. A Tracker with RMT features is needed, plus full pokey support like 16 bit and full AUDTCL usage. Not to forget "the filter-preparation" to avoid dropped notes or different soundings with 15/64kHz ... Btw: Dropped notes... Who declared the "POKEY-filters" as "filters" ? Having a close look at them, they do not work as filters, they work similar to frequency oscillators. This causes the "problem" of notation-differences. So, depending on the setting of the "oscillation". the notation range expands or shrinks. Notation expands: less frequency steps for the notation Notation shrinks: more frequency steps for the notation (more exact notes though) ...it seems pokey is far more suitable for real music than I've ever thought. It's not only your fault Can you just imagine... some "Chipsound-Gods" as Hubbard, Whittaker or Galway would have done music with a full working POKEY-Synth-Tracker and the "real" features of Pokey in the 80's ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 isnt it more like a violin than a flute? 868350[/snapback] It's exactly a synth sound Doesn't a violin have "more body" ? The "flute/whistle" is created with 1,79MHz clocking. A violin is possible with 15/64KHz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Not to forget "the filter-preparation" to avoid dropped notes or different soundings with 15/64kHz ... Well, then this feature may still need to be added to RMT, but is this filter-preparation very easy? ... and does it involve synchronizing channels or something like that? Btw: Dropped notes...Who declared the "POKEY-filters" as "filters" ? Having a close look at them, they do not work as filters, they work similar to frequency oscillators. 'filtering' on the atari is more like logical ANDing of the two involved squarewaves of the channels, isn't it? As AND is similar as a bit-mltiplication, filtering on the PoKey is very similar to Amplitude Modulation (but then a very digitally distorted version of it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 Not to forget "the filter-preparation" to avoid dropped notes or different soundings with 15/64kHz ... Well, then this feature may still need to be added to RMT, but is this filter-preparation very easy? ... and does it involve synchronizing channels or something like that? RMT seems to play every note at the End(?) of a vbi cycle. The only necessary thing would be, to have a command "now reset filter" and RMT is playing one short tone on both channels, before the notes are played, with the defined pitch and volume (definable by the musician).... that's all. Btw: Dropped notes...Who declared the "POKEY-filters" as "filters" ? Having a close look at them, they do not work as filters, they work similar to frequency oscillators. 'filtering' on the atari is more like logical ANDing of the two involved squarewaves of the channels, isn't it? As AND is similar as a bit-mltiplication, filtering on the PoKey is very similar to Amplitude Modulation (but then a very digitally distorted version of it). I would say it's something like "NAND" and that's why someone called it filter.. Because,if you set the pitch on both channels to the same, the note is "dropped". As my filter-experiments show, it is possible to make an offset to the start of the played note, between both channels, makes pokey playing a nice tone, a "violin-sound"... which can be stable though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 (edited) Emkay, it sounds like it's time to make an (RMT) instrument editor (at least before there's a full supporting tracker) that runs on the A8bit itself......do you have a real a8 installed, or are you still emulating? Maybe one can develop such an editor where we can adjust note/frequency-tables for the filtered/1.79MHz modes. After all it's not a problem to export a song.xex without any freq-tables at all (i.e. compiled --> note informations transformed to freq. data), so we only need an instrument-dependent freq-table in the .ins files in RMT. .....Emkay: what's your trick in creating instruments...or is it just experimenting? Edited June 5, 2005 by analmux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 Emkay, it sounds like it's time to make an (RMT) instrument editor (at least before there's a full supporting tracker) that runs on the A8bit itself......do you have a real a8 installed, or are you still emulating? I still have my old 800XL (plus another 800XL and two 130XE ) , but I'm not developing with it. Development refers to PC, because my goal is helping to have an emulation, in that any PC coder, musician (professionals) etc. can do stuff for the A8 (refering to the Demo-Scene) It's nice to see working results with the upcoming ABBUC Magazine then Maybe one can develop such an editor where we can adjust note/frequency-tables for the filtered/1.79MHz modes. Maybe.... there's a way into another world ... After all it's not a problem to export a song.xex without any freq-tables at all (i.e. compiled --> note informations transformed to freq. data), so we only need an instrument-dependent freq-table in the .ins files in RMT. The notation range has to be set to the instrument.... This can only be done inside the editor. .....Emkay: what's your trick in creating instruments...or is it just experimenting? 868468[/snapback] The "trick" is physical logics... nothing else. The experimentings belong to the music, because I'm not a musician... But, a musician can do better music, when the physics are correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 9, 2005 Author Share Posted June 9, 2005 Nearly as beautyful as an original violin .... and a bit experimental as everytime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotek_style Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 ... without reading the whole thread.. some .SAPs would be nice well I could convert them on my own but I am too lazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 9, 2005 Author Share Posted June 9, 2005 ... without reading the whole thread.. some .SAPs would be nice well I could convert them on my own but I am too lazy 871433[/snapback] Sorry, but the "SAP-Players" have too much sounding bugs and do not play the "Synth's" correctly. The tunes are almost correctly played with the "A 800 plus 4" emulator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 The tunes are almost correctly played with the "A 800 plus 4" emulator. 871444[/snapback] hmmm....silly question: how do YOU know if sounds are being played correctly?: you don't have a real A8 installed to test... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Stupid pokey emulation.....I thought I'd created a very cool sound in RMT editor, when I played it on the emulator the whole character of the sound was GONE. ...RMT (I'm running version 1.20) seems to have a lot of trouble with 1.79MHz modes: it gets very slow and retards notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 hmmm....silly question: how do YOU know if sounds are being played correctly?: you don't have a real A8 installed to test... 871501[/snapback] You know "Admirandus". The game uses 1,79MHz filter for the "fanfare" and the "Guitar in the pause mode". So I know, what POKEY can do with this setting. For some fine-tuning I save a pattern of the song to a XEX and play it in A800winplus4. This was a nice thing, until Raster put some logical blockings in. So, while it was possible to set a "goto 0" inside a tune, to have a small loop at the emulator, now you have to delete everytime everything else, befor you can go on... The "slowing down" appears when RMT handles the filter settings. It seem to do some pre-calculations and it appears only one time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 10, 2005 Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 This one is for checking some "cross-fader-FX" between two music-styles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 (edited) This one is for checking some "cross-fader-FX" between two music-styles. 872040[/snapback] COOL....this one really swings.... @ emkay: can you make the bass notes a little shorter, as now they sound like they are melted. Maybe one step shorter and the bass will gain a lot of contrast. this one needs a recording from the real hardware..... Edited June 11, 2005 by analmux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 11, 2005 Author Share Posted June 11, 2005 COOL....this one really swings.... @ emkay: can you make the bass notes a little shorter, as now they sound like they are melted. Maybe one step shorter and the bass will gain a lot of contrast. What do you mean exactly? The "bass" or the "drums"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 COOL....this one really swings.... @ emkay: can you make the bass notes a little shorter, as now they sound like they are melted. Maybe one step shorter and the bass will gain a lot of contrast. What do you mean exactly? The "bass" or the "drums"? 872553[/snapback] Not drums (or bassdrum) but bass notes (melody): they're humming too much, like they're glued together or something. (maybe you can PM me the RMT file and I can change it). Here's the mp3: http://www.phys.uu.nl/~bpos/mp3/double_feature1.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 :!: IDEA: As we've seen/heard before the notation for advanced instruments get screwed up. This might be a weird step now, but what happens if we add/subtract frequencies in the TABLE OF FREQS mode. Maybe this can be used to actually detune an instrument (normally this will give detunings)...though now we might be able to TUNE an instrument........ .....I'll go experiment on this now....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 (edited) ........okay, here's first tuning experiment: tuned flutes: -------------------------[after edit ]--------------------- The first part is the 'do-re-mi....' tonal scale. I've found out that it's possible to tune an instrument within the range of ONE octave (12 semitones): intervals greater than 12 semitones are not retunable, so you must add some higher order (note-dependent) correction frequencies instead of only the added constant. Look in the RMT at instrument 01 and 3E: 3E is the same as 01 except one difference: I used command 4 to tune it; in instrument 01 and 3E different values are added to the base-note freq. ins.01 is tuned in such a way that higher notes have the right notations (in the 4th octave) ins.3E is tuned differently s.t. lower notes are more tuned (in the 3th octave) Off course this is not the final solution for tuning problems. Edited June 11, 2005 by analmux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 11, 2005 Author Share Posted June 11, 2005 What about this setting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 11, 2005 Author Share Posted June 11, 2005 Look in the RMT at instrument 01 and 3E: 3E is the same as 01 except one difference: I used command 4 to tune it; in instrument 01 and 3E different values are added to the base-note freq. ins.01 is tuned in such a way that higher notes have the right notations (in the 4th octave) ins.3E is tuned differently s.t. lower notes are more tuned (in the 3th octave) Nice, nice.... Perhaps this explains, why a "portamento" is very important for the result of the instrument's sounding. F.e.: Without the portamento a "violin" was not possible, because it produces this "whining-touch" of a real violin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 I just downloaded an .ATR image from atariarea.krap.pl: SID player (see attached file) I especially like ACES HIGH cover from Iron Maiden....cool stuff but I wonder if it's simple 50Hz VBI programming or samples?? I noticed that it sounds better on emulator than on real a8 @ emkay: the bass is slightly better in your last version, but I think you can give it a bit more contrast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 11, 2005 Author Share Posted June 11, 2005 I just downloaded an .ATR image from atariarea.krap.pl: SID player (see attached file) I especially like ACES HIGH cover from Iron Maiden....cool stuff but I wonder if it's simple 50Hz VBI programming or samples?? I noticed that it sounds better on emulator than on real a8 Mux, this is a full CPU eating emulation stuff. So, it's really nothing to compare with the Hardsynth "results", as you can use the "Hardsynth" together with G2F or ingame... Take note, that here 50Hz VBI is used.... It still would be possible to use 2 Hardsynth plus 2 Softsynth channels at the same time, and/or faster manipulations. @ emkay: the bass is slightly better in your last version, but I think you can give it a bit more contrast. 872600[/snapback] How about this one? BTW: Have you recognized Winamp showing a clear Sawtooth for the violin in the spectrum analyzer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 How about this one? hmmm, a bit too much bass contrast in the intro (before the violin comes in), but it's a lot better now. maybe you can use another bass instrument in the intro (with long tied bass notes), and short bass notes in the rest of the song. -------- .......sawtooth violins??? yes indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 11, 2005 Author Share Posted June 11, 2005 OK.... The bass is now splitted into one more soft and straight one, and a more percussive one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 11, 2005 Author Share Posted June 11, 2005 (edited) Mux, while trying to get full range octaves... may you try to put the "Bubble-Bobble" melody together with those sounds? Not "SID" style, but "arcade"? This POKEY-sounding comes very close to the original machine. Only the main melody.... nothing else. Edited June 11, 2005 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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