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Alternate Reality: The City by Philip Price +Links


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#26 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 31, 2005 12:57 AM

I imagine it's very difficult to get a set of clothing of the highest value, all in a matching quality, color and material, since there are thousands of combinations which are likely randomly offered at the shops.

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Anyone know if Hailing evil creatures is an evil act?

I surprised a zombie and out of curiosity I hailed him. He disengaged and then left! A little while later I surprised another zombie so I hailed him too. This time the zombie left immediately, just as good creatures do when I hail them with my good character.

By being friendly with an evil creature, may I have become evil by association? :D

I wonder if zombies are going to attack me anymore...

What do you think about this?

#27 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 31, 2005 1:26 AM

I imagine it's very difficult to get a set of clothing of the highest value, all in a matching quality, color and material, since there are thousands of combinations which are likely randomly offered at the shops.

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Anyone know if Hailing evil creatures is an evil act?

I surprised a zombie and out of curiosity I hailed him. He disengaged and then left! A little while later I surprised another zombie so I hailed him too. This time the zombie left immediately, just as good creatures do when I hail them with my good character.

By being friendly with an evil creature, may I have become evil by association? :D

I wonder if zombies are going to attack me anymore...

What do you think about this?

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Interesting question. I wonder if maybe it was programmed to represent the "evil thrives on fear" philosophy, where if you show you are NOT afraid by hailing them, then they themselves become fearful and run away...

#28 densonj OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 31, 2005 7:54 AM

I always wondered how that worked exactly. I thought that it had something to do with your characters alignment as well.

Edited by densonj, Tue May 31, 2005 7:57 AM.


#29 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 31, 2005 5:39 PM

I have never really extensively played a completely good aligned character before, so I've never experienced this before. It's pretty hard remembering to always wait for your neutral opponent to take the first shot, especially when it's a mugger or thief.

Anyway, it is really odd to have evil monsters not even wanting to fight, when I Hail them. It's as if, even though I am good aligned, I befriend specifc evil beings when greeting them with a Hail on more than one occasion.

I remeber with my evil aligned characters, evil beings always attacked me, even if I Hailed them.

This is getting interesting, playing a perfectly good aligned character...more to come later.

Oh, by the way, can anyone distingish the difference between the sound of the evil being prelude and the neutral being prelude? Is it distinguishable on a real Atari?

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Tue May 31, 2005 5:42 PM.


#30 Goochman OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 31, 2005 7:20 PM

In the City I can easily discern good/neutral/evil - On the Dungeon it was not as clear cut IIRC.

#31 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue May 31, 2005 10:35 PM

In the City I can easily discern good/neutral/evil - On the Dungeon it was not as clear cut IIRC.

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Really? This is on a Real Atari right?

How can you tell? What is the difference in sound?

They sound the same to me.

To be clear, you can tell the difference in sound between a Mugger and a Giant Rat?

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Tue May 31, 2005 10:41 PM.


#32 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 3, 2005 3:49 PM

Just to clarify, by "outcome" I wasn't referring to battle, but rather encounters where the potential opponent simply runs away, giving you no option to engage.  Being dressed in finer clothing may give you a more imposing or noble appearance, which may scare off the more lowly characters you encounter (paupers, beggars, etc.)

On the other hand, they may also increase the frequency of such encounters, as more paupers and beggars may see you as a potential source for a handout.

It would be interesting to test that out.

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That all makes sense.

I am testing it right now, it seems very complex, but I think I am noticing some trends, it's going to take many more encounters of similar types to figure out the variables.

eobet does mention in his FAQ that there is a dapper stat. Anyone have more info on this or a quote from Philip?

Anyway, it's very likely that such an elaborate and major system such as the clothing in The City, which is comprised of over a dozen shops and thousands of clothing combinations has a significant meaning or affect on gameplay.

Especially since Philip included so many more less obvious aspects of the game such as tracking a characters' blood alcohol level, disease incubation time, neural and blood poison and the simulated effects of each in differing stages and degrees.

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Fri Jun 3, 2005 3:49 PM.


#33 Mindfield OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:48 PM

I don't think the number of clothing combinations really makes much of a difference. Assuming that there is a dapper stat, each article of clothing probably carries with it its own stats that affect yours. Temperature and fashionability would be the two most obvious (as it's possible to wear too much or too little clothing -- you will be cold or hot depending the outdoor temperature and the collective temperature by which your clothing raises your body temperature) Fashionability of course would collectively bump your "dapper" stat; three articles of clothing -- fancy breeches, tunic and hat, say -- may bump your "dapper" stat by 3 points each, while plain clothes may only bump by 1 each, or not at all.

Mind you, I never really thought to consider whether or not being cold or hot had any adverse affect on your character's abilities. I would imagine being cold would adversely affect your dexterity and speed, and long term exposure to cold may even cause harm. On the other hand being hot may affect your constitution -- since exertion could quickly lead to heat stroke.

Edited by Mindfield, Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:48 PM.


#34 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 3, 2005 6:08 PM

I wonder if there is even a temperature effect at all int he city, I do know there is in the dungeon in as much as there are cold and hot places and it does effect you depending on what you are or are not wearing, but I didn't think there was a temperature to take into account in the city, but maybe there is in as much as the day and night conditions and rain and windy conditions, as all of those; day,night, wind and rain do exist in the city.

#35 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 3, 2005 7:40 PM

As Mindfield was saying, there might also be an affiliation type stat, which would be affected by the color and type of materials that you wear. For example, is wearing dragonskin items offensive to dragons and is wearing black offensive to the Wizards of Light members or good aligned beings? This is the reason, I think the different combinations may matter, which there are thousands of.

This may also be why you start out with a Cheap Gray Breechcloth and a Simple Gray Cloak. Gray may be the Neutral color and Cheap and Simple items made of cloth are not likely to draw undue attention or offend anyone.

I have been recording clothing in a database, and I have noticed two things that are definate. Each clothing attribute specifically affects the price of the item. Also, different ranges of CHR affect the overall price-bracket that you are offered. The price-brackets I have noticed so far are CHR 10-14, 15-19, 20+. Each bracket gives you about an additional .75% discount off the previous bracket pricing.

Here are actual game items and their costs:
Article                                      Coppers

Simple Gray Cotton Cloak                     468
Simple Gold Cotton Cloak                     702

Cheap Violet Dragonskin Robe                 7537
Cheap Violet Dragonskin Toga                 751

As you can see, Gold colored items are exactly 1/3 or 33% more expensive than Gray colored items.
And a Robe is worth 10 times that of Toga.

It's getting pretty interesting.

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:14 PM.


#36 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:24 PM

This is in the FAQ about The City at http://www.eobet.com...reality_FAQ.txt

"It could start raining and you could hear the wind blowing, at various strengths,
around the corners (which also made your character go freezing, if you didn't have proper
clothing on)."

"One of the first things you'll notice in The City is that you will get cold quite fast
if you don't buy any proper clothing. Apart from that, it is still unknown exactly what
the effect is, apart from a certain dapper value which apparently increases your status."

"Clothing are rumored to have a 'dapper' effect, which would affect the way that other
citizens viewed you, but no hard facts has ever been revealed about this."

"Unlocated stats are currently dapper value (an charisma like stat which changes depending on
what clothing you wear), body temperature (which can give you colds if it gets to low,
and will go up by wearing warm apparel), food and thirst levels and the "jerk rating" stat
(increased by shortchanging healers and such)."

I think I remeber seeing one of my characters in The City, Cold before. Maybe you don't notice it for the first few game months because you are in the warmer months of Rains and Sowing. Maybe you start getting cold in the winter months?

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:13 PM.


#37 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Jun 3, 2005 9:28 PM

I'm the same eobet who wrote the AR FAQ and who hosts the oldest AR fan site, btw. :)

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eobet,

I am trying to play a perfectly good aligned character, but I fear I may not be doing it correctly after I found this in your FAQ:

"Another thing with combat is the disengaged and engaged menus. Engaging doesn't count as
an evil act, and if you want to stay good, you must take the first hit before attacking,
something which you can't always afford
. And when you encounter good monster, do watch
those menus as the L key can be both (L)eave and (L)unge and pressing that last key by
mistake can produce very frightening effects if you encounter the wrong monster."

I have only been waiting for neutral beings to attack first, whether they hit me or not. According to your FAQ as quoted above, "you must take the first hit before attacking."

Hopefully you can clarify this. Does that mean that you must actually take damage before Attacking? I have only been waiting for them to attack first, whether they hit me or not. So maybe I am only semi-good aligned? ;)

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Sun Jun 5, 2005 3:00 PM.


#38 Mindfield OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:20 AM

As Mindfield was saying, there might also be an affiliation type stat, which would be affected by the color and type of materials that you wear.  For example, is wearing dragonskin items offensive to dragons and is wearing black offensive to the Wizards of Light members or good aligned beings?  This is the reason, I think the different combinations may matter, which there are thousands of.

This may also be why you start out with a Cheap Gray Breechcloth and a Simple Gray Cloak.  Gray may be the Neutral color and Cheap and Simple items made of cloth are not likely to draw undue attention or offend anyone.

I have been recording clothing in a database, and I have noticed two things that are definate.  Each clothing attribute specifically affects the price of the item.  Also, different ranges of CHR affect the overall price-bracket that you are offered.  The price-brackets I have noticed so far are CHR 10-14, 15-19, 20+.  Each bracket gives you about an additional .75% discount off the previous bracket pricing.

Here are actual game items and their costs:

Article                                      Coppers

Simple Gray Cotton Cloak                     468
Simple Gold Cotton Cloak                     702

Cheap Violet Dragonskin Robe                 7537
Cheap Violet Dragonskin Toga                 751

As you can see, Gold colored items are exactly 1/3 or 33% more expensive than Gray colored items.
And a Robe is worth 10 times that of Toga.

It's getting pretty interesting.

View Post


Nothing necessarily says that this has anything to do with anything more than fashion and/or materials. In reality, a gray woolen garment is going to be cheaper than a gold lamais garment simply because the costs of the fabrics differ. Furthermore it isn't unreasonable to assume that a robe uses as much as ten times the amount of fabric as that of a toga -- once again it's basic economics at work.

Now, if we're talking about a price difference between two garments that are presumably made of the same fabric and simply died different colours, that's something else entirely. A red wool coat and a blue wool coat are still wool coats, but if there is a price difference -- particularly a significant one, then it would be safe to assume that colour does matter, and therefore must have some effect on your character when worn -- whether it's because you're more or less dapper (perhaps a particular colour has more significance or is preferred over another) or has some sort of social significance (colours of a particular guild or strain of nobility, or the age-old Light vs. Dark dichotomy, say).

Now, an interesting experiment to go along with figuring out the charisma brackets at which you are afforted deeper discounts with merchants would be to see if particular articles of clothing has any further influence -- are you more likely to be offered a better price right away if you're wearing noble clothes than if you're wearing humble clothing? Would better clothing assist your haggling in making shopkeeps agree to even lower prices than if you were negotiating in rags?

#39 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:26 AM

I'm the same eobet who wrote the AR FAQ and who hosts the oldest AR fan site, btw. :)

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eobet,

I am trying to play a perfectly good aligned character, but I fear I may not be doing it correct after I found this in your FAQ:

"Another thing with combat is the disengaged and engaged menus. Engaging doesn't count as
an evil act, and if you want to stay good, you must take the first hit before attacking,
something which you can't always afford. And when you encounter good monster, do watch
those menus as the L key can be both (L)eave and (L)unge and pressing that last key by
mistake can produce very frightening effects if you encounter the wrong monster."

I have only been waiting for neutral beings to attack first, whether they hit me or not. According to your FAQ as quoted above, "you must take the first hit before attacking."

Hopefully you can clarify this. Does that mean that you must actually take damage before Attacking? I have only been waiting for them to attack first, whether they hit me or not. So maybe I am only semi-good aligned? ;)

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I'm currently building up a good character myself, I'm at level 5 now. But I read in the AR guide, IIRC, that engaging isn't an evil act and it isn't an evil act to charm or trick evil beings, since your just fighting fire with fire, so I'd suspect that if this is the case attacking evil beings first is not an evil act. If you think about it, your just being a hero ridding the "world" of evil, like a super hero. Anyway, I've been attacking evil creatures first if I have the chance, and no good creatures have reacted differently to me since, they still leave me alone and/or don't attack me like they do when I'm playing an evil character, same with the guards, so it doesn't seem to be affecting my moral alignment by attacking evil first.

#40 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:30 AM

This is in the FAQ about The City at http://www.eobet.com...reality_FAQ.txt

"It could start raining and you could hear the wind blowing, at various strengths,
around the corners (which also made your character go freezing, if you didn't have proper
clothing on)."

"One of the first things you'll notice in The City is that you will get cold quite fast
if you don't buy any proper clothing. Apart from that, it is still unknown exactly what
the effect is, apart from a certain dapper value which apparently increases your status."

"Clothing are rumored to have a 'dapper' effect, which would affect the way that other
citizens viewed you, but no hard facts has ever been revealed about this."

"Unlocated stats are currently dapper value (an charisma like stat which changes depending on
what clothing you wear), body temperature (which can give you colds if it gets to low,
and will go up by wearing warm apparel), food and thirst levels and the "jerk rating" stat
(increased by shortchanging healers and such)."

I think I remeber seeing one of my characters in The City, Cold before.  Maybe you don't notice it for the first few game months because you are in the warmer months of Rains and Sowing.  Maybe you start getting cold in the winter months?

View Post

I ran around until level 4 with just eh simple gray breachcloth and simple gray cloak (?) I was given out of the gate, through wind and rain, night and day, and never once did it state that I was cold. Edit: just noticed your suggestion about colder months...

Edited by Gunstar, Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:39 AM.


#41 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:34 AM

This is in the FAQ about The City at http://www.eobet.com...reality_FAQ.txt

"It could start raining and you could hear the wind blowing, at various strengths,
around the corners (which also made your character go freezing, if you didn't have proper
clothing on)."

"One of the first things you'll notice in The City is that you will get cold quite fast
if you don't buy any proper clothing. Apart from that, it is still unknown exactly what
the effect is, apart from a certain dapper value which apparently increases your status."

"Clothing are rumored to have a 'dapper' effect, which would affect the way that other
citizens viewed you, but no hard facts has ever been revealed about this."

"Unlocated stats are currently dapper value (an charisma like stat which changes depending on
what clothing you wear), body temperature (which can give you colds if it gets to low,
and will go up by wearing warm apparel), food and thirst levels and the "jerk rating" stat
(increased by shortchanging healers and such)."

I think I remeber seeing one of my characters in The City, Cold before.  Maybe you don't notice it for the first few game months because you are in the warmer months of Rains and Sowing.  Maybe you start getting cold in the winter months?

View Post


You know, in all the years of playing AR: the city, I have never once come across a Healer in the "wild", only when I go to the two healer's abodes. It doesn't even give you the opportunity to "short change" then there, either you accept their offer or you do not. So you are suggesting that there ARE healer's running around the city that you can hail and get help from like in the dungeon?!?

Edited by Gunstar, Sat Jun 4, 2005 8:37 AM.


#42 Goochman OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 4, 2005 11:51 AM

I think on the ST version I have run into a Healer walking around - This happened alot with the DUngeon.

Couldnt swear by it but I think I found one in the 8bit City also.

#43 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:12 PM

What I was specifically questioning was this quote in regards to neutral beings, not evil ones (I am sure it's ok to attack evil ones without waiting for them to hit you):

"...if you want to stay good, you must take the first hit before attacking,
something which you can't always afford."


That makes it sound like a neutral being must actually hit you and do damage before you can attack them back. And, what if the neutral being attacks first, but it does not hit you because it misses or your armor absorbs the blow? Does that still count as "the first hit?"

See what I mean? Maybe that is why neutral beings keep attacking me anyway - because I have never waited to actually be hit by them. If they swung at me, miss or hit, I usually kill them.

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:13 PM.


#44 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 4, 2005 1:18 PM


"Unlocated stats are currently dapper value (an charisma like stat which changes depending on
what clothing you wear), body temperature (which can give you colds if it gets to low,
and will go up by wearing warm apparel), food and thirst levels and the "jerk rating" stat
(increased by shortchanging healers and such)."

View Post


You know, in all the years of playing AR: the city, I have never once come across a Healer in the "wild", only when I go to the two healer's abodes. It doesn't even give you the opportunity to "short change" then there, either you accept their offer or you do not. So you are suggesting that there ARE healer's running around the city that you can hail and get help from like in the dungeon?!?

View Post


I think that part about Healers is talking about the Dungeon. Although, you do get a "jerk rating" stat in The City from shortchanging Smithys and Shop Owners over time.

What I was interested in quoting was the first part about the dapper value in relation to clothing.

#45 Gunstar OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 4, 2005 3:14 PM

I beleive that a nuetral being attacking first is all it takes, whether they miss or not, it becomes self-defense for you. After all, if you just sit there, they will keep attcking until the do hit and kill you. I let them only take the first swing, then I hack away, and I generally even purposely engage them in order to get them to start a conflict, if they disengage, I often re-engage them until it ticks them off enough to attack! ;)

But I've not notice nuetral biengs automatically always attacking me now becuse of my fine-line tactics, many will still go away if I refuse to fight or start a fight. I think what was meant in your quote about not being able to always "afford" them taking the first wack is if you are avery low on H.P., and they DO make contact, it may be the last thing you ever see.

#46 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Jun 4, 2005 6:15 PM

Yeah, it would only make sense that if they swing at you, then they are fair game whether they miss or not. The wording kind of makes it sound like you need to get hit first though.

I am doing the same thing as you. If they swing at me then their dead!

You know what is happening now? This is really strange, but any being that surprises me does not attack me, even if they are evil! They just go away. Isn't that weird? It's not 100% yet, but nearly every time on surprises.

I have had Knights, Thieves, Dragons, Trolls, Gnolls, and Orcs surprise me recently and then just run away. Hmm...

Also, now that I have some extra coppers, I have been trying different drinks and I think, just like Mindfield built up an immunity to poison, you can build up an immunity to alcohol. At first, just one beer would make me Tipsy. I would wait for a while until it wore off and then if I was near another tavern, I would have another drink, repeating the process. After a while, it took 2 beers to get me Tipsy, then three and four...it kept going up as I drank them and let them wear off - my char seems to have built an immunity. Well, now It takes 8 beers before I get Tipsy. So there is definately some kind of immunuty system. Maybe STA has something do to with it though too.

This game is so cool!

#47 Mindfield OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Jun 5, 2005 10:19 AM

Yeah, it would only make sense that if they swing at you, then they are fair game whether they miss or not.  The wording kind of makes it sound like you need to get hit first though.

I am doing the same thing as you.  If they swing at me then their dead!

You know what is happening now? This is really strange, but any being that surprises me does not attack me, even if they are evil!  They just go away.  Isn't that weird?  It's not 100% yet, but nearly every time on surprises.

I have had Knights, Thieves, Dragons, Trolls, Gnolls, and Orcs surprise me recently and then just run away.  Hmm...

Also, now that I have some extra coppers, I have been trying different drinks and I think, just like Mindfield built up an immunity to poison, you can build up an immunity to alcohol.  At first, just one beer would make me Tipsy.  I would wait for a while until it wore off and then if I was near another tavern, I would have another drink, repeating the process.  After a while, it took 2 beers to get me Tipsy, then three and four...it kept going up as I drank them and let them wear off - my char seems to have built an immunity.  Well, now It takes 8 beers before I get Tipsy.  So there is definately some kind of immunuty system.  Maybe STA has something do to with it though too.

This game is so cool!

View Post


Heh, I never thought to try that with other things -- alcohol seems to make the most sense though (since it has the least debilitating effect on your character when taken in small quantities). I never drank very much alcohol in the game myself, so I never observed its effects over time. So now we've got a pretty solid example of exactly what I experienced with deadly poison all those years ago -- the character's ability to develop immunities to various deliterious substances within the game!

Actually... if you think about it, alcohol is a poison (though a very mild one), and thus may be directly related.

#48 smartwhois OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Jun 6, 2005 12:47 AM

get outta town!...alcholol is not poison...its medicine...lol...a relaxant nad fun to drink while playing ar!...hic...lol...anywho all ihve to try drinking mor e in game instead of out...haaarrr!!!!11!

i keep dying at about lvl 3....rolled good this time...except for sta and hps those are like 6 and 7!!!!...lollll but my others are good like 18s...cause im good like that... ;)

what the hell minefield! i didnt see your char yet...i found the link on atarimania sat and im' already beating you!!!....lol...ans Xebec...you act like your the pro...but you aint even winning!...lol...j/k

gonna pass up axewater too...what good is an axe made of water...doh

:)

#49 Xebec's Demise OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 7, 2005 1:52 PM

Ok, buster, I'll beleive it when I see it. ;)

Remember, "that which is invisible is real."

You may be tempted to cheat, but in reality you will only be cheating yourself as you will be the only one to know.

I will congratulate you either way.

#50 ijor OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Jun 7, 2005 2:06 PM

Btw, speaking about the "fabulous" port of AR to the ST. I loaded the ST version the other day and noted something quite unusual.

Most of the time, the most important place in the titles goes for the original programmer. The one who made the port usually comes in second place only (smaller leters, appear later, etc).

In this case, the ST programmer appears first, and PP is mentioned only later. Guess he was thinking his port was better work than original PP's one :)




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