Gunfight and copy protection...

[Callipygous]

Agree with what everyone is saying about the property rights of the author. The owner can do with his program as he pleases. Another point is just lack of common courtesy. The prevailing reaction to something you disagree with on the 'net is to use strong language and overstate your case in order to get attention. In this case, "boycott" etc. Merely because the poster was annoyed at not being able to use his cuttle cart. A more reasoned approach might have been to write the author of the software and ask if an unprotected copy of the game could be obtained along with buying the cart. Promising, of course, not to distribute the unprotected version. Would that have been so difficult?

[DuckandCover]

The complexities of programming for the 2600 are enormous. I really wonder if people like this complainer honestly realize the amount of time and effort that is required to produce a quality game like Gunfight. There aren't that many programmers out there that are willing to put in the hard work necessary to produce such games. We really need to support them as much as we can, especially by breaking open our wallets and buying some of these homebrews.

 

[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: duckandcover ]

[Eckhard Stolberg]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cybergoth:

In the meantime I've heard enough pros and cons in that discussion to feel uncertain about it myself. It's just - at one point - as Junie said - I decided to stick with my descission.

 

I've not yet decided how to release my next game, but you can be sure I'll not waste my precious few free hours to work on copy protection schemes crap. My goal (as usual :-)) is rather trying to create the best VCS game ever made.

---

 

As I've told you in much more detail before , I don't think locking out only the Cuttle Cart owners from testing Gunfight has any measurable effect (positive or negative) on the sales of the game. It only forces you to waste your time on useless controversial discussions like this one.

 

So if you are happy with the sales of Gunfight, despite the fact that there is a free version for the emulators available, I think it would be best, if you made the final version of your next game freely available for everyone.

 

If you think that sales would be better, if people couldn't play the game endlessly without paying for it first, then you probably shouldn't release a ROM image at all except to your beta testers. But then you would loose the possibility to run beta versions of your game past the complete Stella list. And that might be the key factor for turning one of your great games into the best VCS game ever.

 

And if you are looking for a way to get out of this whole copy-protection controversy without anyone having to loose his face too much, you could always say that the protection code was only meant to keep people from hacking Gunfight, and that the game works on a real VCS. If it doesn't work on the Cuttle Cart, that wasn't your intention, but it isn't your duty to fix the problem either. Then Chad and I could release a new version of the Cuttle Cart transfer software that would allow Gunfight to play nicely on the CC.

 

That way it wouldn't look as if the boycott forced you to give up, because you wouldn't have to release a fixed Gunfight binary. Also it wouldn't look as if the Cuttle Cart owners are greedy software pirates, because we wouldn't release this software "fix" against your expressed wishes anymore. And still no-one could complain anymore about Gunfight not working on the CC. This might save you and me from having useless discussions like this one, which surely will help the countless other Atari related projects that you and I are trying to fit into our free time.

 

 

Ciao, Eckhard Stolberg

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I think you should know, that after "pissing off" not only Manuel, but also Andrew and me and probably also due to the unanimous support of the AA community (thanks!), Chris has stopped his Gunfight boycott campaign.

[+Propane13]

Hi,

 

Does anyone think that this whole "boycott" thing increased Manuel's sales? Seems like a lot of heck and mean emails to go through, but still, a lot of PR is out there to buy the "forbidden game". Just a thought. Sounds like a lot of people are motivated just over the edge to buy Gunfight, instead of just thinking about it.

 

-John K. Harvey

[StanJr]

I was planning on getting it anyway, but this pretty much clinches it.

[Albert]

Personally I think if everyone just ignored Chris' original boycott message, it would have quietly slipped away and no one would have paid it any attention. However, it did turn into a rather large thread, so many more people were exposed to the issue. I don't know if this incident helped Manuel's sales, but I doubt it hurt them.

 

..Al

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albert:

Personally I think if everyone just ignored Chris' original boycott message, it would have quietly slipped away and no one would have paid it any attention. However, it did turn into a rather large thread, so many more people were exposed to the issue.

---

Maybe you are right, but I couldn't resist. The way he was doing it was so elementary against fairplay, that I felt I had to stop him. And there was response already.

[Snider-man]

Errr...that would've been me. Sorry about that.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snider-man:

Errr...that would've been me. Sorry about that.

---

Don't worry. If I had read this before, I would have been the one.

[Cybergoth]

Hi Eckhard!

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eckhard Stolberg:

And if you are looking for a way to get out of this whole copy-protection controversy without anyone having to loose his face too much, you could always say that the protection code was only meant to keep people from hacking Gunfight, and that the game works on a real VCS. If it doesn't work on the Cuttle Cart, that wasn't your intention, but it isn't your duty to fix the problem either. Then Chad and I could release a new version of the Cuttle Cart transfer software that would allow Gunfight to play nicely on the CC.

---

 

Uhm... well... didn't Thomas find some games a while ago that are checksumming too and which should fail on the CC as well? Or there may be several other games relying on certain power-on states, which are now rendered unusable on the current CC version?

 

I certainly wouldn't insist on exploiting the CC's proven incompatibility to real hardware, if this'd additionally prevent people from playing games other than Gunfight. Hint

 

BTW: Just to say this at least once: AFAIK the BIN always worked flawlesly on a modified(!) SC...

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cybergoth:

Hi Eckhard!

 

Uhm... well... didn't Thomas find some games a while ago that are checksumming too and which should fail on the CC as well?

---

Checksummed yes (Video Gems), but that shouldn't lead to any problems with CC.

[Albert]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snider-man:

Errr...that would've been me. Sorry about that.

---

 

No need to apologize, I'm not really faulting anyone about responding. I probably would have done the same if I had been in your or Thomas' shoes. Since it didn't really turn into a scathing flame war, I think it worked out for the better and everyone was able to voice their opinions. And it has been interesting to follow. I don't think Chris quite expected the response he got, especially from other Homebrew authors.

 

..Al

[Eckhard Stolberg]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thomas Jentzsch:

Checksummed yes (Video Gems), but that shouldn't lead to any problems with CC.

---

 

I don't know. Sometimes the games in question won't play on the Cuttle Cart. OK, that's because they use one of the difficulty switches for a pause feature, and I always seem to have it in the wrong position, but you can never be too carefull. Maybe we should update the CC software just to be sure. Also the Berzerk INTIM problem that you mentioned seems to affect the CC too, so a close look at the power-on state might be nessessary anyway.

 

 

Ciao, Eckhard Stolberg

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eckhard Stolberg:

Maybe we should update the CC software just to be sure. Also the Berzerk INTIM problem that you mentioned seems to affect the CC too, so a close look at the power-on state might be nessessary anyway.

---

 

Agreed, I am always a fan of perfection.

[Marco(2)]

*** alert: possible controversial thread coming up ***

 

All the fuzz in this hobby lately appears to be about homebrews, hacks and (limited) releases of games that previously were only available as prototypes.

 

I'm not sure what to think of that. Is this stuff really the only thing that is keeping the hobby alive today? I wouldn't dare to say anything negative about, especially, homebrews, but still, I'd say that there is still enough of the real stuff to get all excited about, too.

 

Am I wrong, or is collecting slowly but steadily moving into the background? Is this perhaps yet another sign of the fact that the challenge of collecting is growing smaller now the internet in general and Ebay in particular is providing us with such a vast supply of games?

 

Cheers,

 

Marco (waiting for Thomas c.s. to retaliate)

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marco:

(waiting for Thomas c.s. to retaliate)

---

To have a chance to get rid of at least one of that damned homebrewers?

 

Back to your question.

I am not a collector, I never was and probably never will be, but I'm still quite sure, that there are and always will be be far more collectors than programmers/hackers etc.

 

And I can not see, that collecting is moving in the background, it's maybe only going from nearly 100% down to around 90%, but still dominating by far. And without collectors, a lot of that "fuzz" wouldn't exist at all.

[Marco(2)]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thomas Jentzsch:

And I can not see, that collecting is moving in the

background

, it's maybe only going from nearly 100% down to around 90%, but still dominating by far. And without collectors, a lot of that "fuzz" wouldn't exist at all.

---

 

Very good point! So, it's a mix: it's the collectors that care too much about (limited released or copy protected or whatever) homebrews and the likes, instead of just focussing on the real stuff

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[Marco(2)]

Oh, and a free tip for all US collectors that think they're pretty much finished ('cause the games they still need are too rare and/or expensive):

 

there's thousands more 2600 games to be collected from Brazil (NTSC! well, very close) and Taiwan and Australia and still other places to be discovered

 

Cheers,

 

Marco

[jahfish]

i also purcheased my copy of gunfight!

[StanJr]

I think there is still PLENTY of challenge to collecting! The "wild" market in these parts is dry like a good martini. I refuse to use ebay, so for me the challenge could not be more intense.

 

I'm not much of a collector though, so it doesn't really affect me.

 

I'm a fan of all the new releases, I think its great that such an old system (relatively) is getting such a big shot in the arm!

[chrisr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snider-man:

His argument is that he can't play it on the Cuttlecart or Supercharger because of the copy protection. So he wants us to boycott a game he had no intention of ever buying anyway.

 

"I made this dub of a video. However, the dub doesn't work on my Betamax. Therefore, please boycott Sony Pictures because they're keeping me from enjoying their products for free."

 

What a loser idiot.

---

 

 

Here's a real intelligent response! In your mind, no one can believe in anything, so theft can be the only possible reason. I notice that you put the blatant insults somewhere you think I won't see them.

 

Chris

[liquid_sky]

are you the loser idiot?

 

[ 05-14-2002: Message edited by: liquid_sky ]

[Snider-man]

quote

Here's a real intelligent response! In your mind, no one can believe in anything, so theft can be the only possible reason. I notice that you put the blatant insults somewhere you think I won't see them.  

My response was posted a *week* ago, shortly before I posted to RGVC. It was a heated comment, granted, but I wasn't trying to "hide" it from you. As I said, this was posted long ago. If theft isn't (wasn't) your reason, fine. But trying to get others to take money out of a homebrewer's pocket because of your perceived "slight" rather than voicing your concerns openly and honestly didn't win you many points in my book.

 

Have a happy and healthy boycott.

[chrisr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snider-man:

Here's a real intelligent response! In your mind, no one can believe in anything, so theft can be the only possible reason. I notice that you put the blatant insults somewhere you think I won't see them.  

My response was posted a *week* ago, shortly before I posted to RGVC. It was a heated comment, granted, but I wasn't trying to "hide" it from you. As I said, this was posted long ago. If theft isn't (wasn't) your reason, fine. But trying to get others to take money out of a homebrewer's pocket because of your perceived "slight" rather than voicing your concerns openly and honestly didn't win you many points in my book.

 

Have a happy and healthy boycott.

 

 

Boycott has been long canceled. I am going to post a follow up later today when I'm more awake. I wrote manuel a letter and was hoping for a response before I do, but I don't know if he is going to write me back or not. I sure wish he had posted his feelings on r.g.v.c. After the inital wave of heated comments (which for the most part satayed civil), my primary goal was met. The gamers, collectors and enthusists all had their chance to comment on the issue. In the end, it turned in to a good thread and got the game lots of publicity. I am quite sure many people never even heard of it until I started the thread. In my opionion, everyone "won". My only hope here is that manuel's feelings aren't too hurt. That was something I never meant to do, and I think my tone in all of the posts and replies indicated that very well. My apologies go out to manuel for that.

 

Chris