76 replies to this topic

[Tempest]

Klove, on Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:47 PM, said:

Heya Tempest....

Have you tried speaking with Dave Wickstead in regards to the 2600 Proto.

His group did it back in the day. Along with alot of other stuff for US Games.

Cheers,

- Ken (No longer at Lack-Of-Vision)

Yep, I spoke with Jim (not Dave) Wickstead and one of the programmers (I believe it was Roger Booth).  They did not have any copies of the prototype anymore.

Tempest

[Pixelboy]

This morning, I read part 1 of an article titled "Gaming Illuminati" in issue 34 of Retro Gamer magazine. Lets just say it opened my eyes to certain "realities" about hard-core video game collecting. There are protos, betas and unreleased games that may sadly never get dumped... Can't wait for issue 35 to read the second part of the article.  

[mos6507]

So this whole saga is built upon the premise of there only being one copy of the proto.  There are very few protos that only have one copy in circulation.  Maybe only one KNOWN copy but another may turn up.  In the past were cases where someone thought he had the only known copy and tried to keep it from circulation only for another proto to turn up, turning his whole effort into a huge waste of his time.  If the game really doesn't get dumped and he lets it bitrot, then he no longer has much of a collectible anymore.  I would think that even when these guys hoard games they make sure to have a personal backup, but some of these guys are not technical so you never know.  They just think they stumbled on a retirement fund and they can let the cart gather dust for another 20 years and still work.

Edited by mos6507, Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:49 AM.

[Foxsolo2000]

Guys, lets face facts here.  I may sound controversial but there probably isn't anyone on here who doesn't feel the same way about this as I do.  We are dealing with a selfish jerk who seems to believe that sitting on this one of a kind prototype will jack up the price that or he gets off on the fact that he owns somehting that none of us will ever experiance.  No doubt others on here will shoot me down in flames but I for one am tired of pussy footing around on this issue.  At least other prototype owners are working with tempest to try and at least give some historical perspective that can be archived.  Perhaps I am just getting jaded on this entire issue and if anyone out there wants to argue the point then go ahead but all I am saying is what most of us already think

[Tempest]

Pixelboy, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:45 AM, said:

This morning, I read part 1 of an article titled "Gaming Illuminati" in issue 34 of Retro Gamer magazine. Lets just say it opened my eyes to certain "realities" about hard-core video game collecting. There are protos, betas and unreleased games that may sadly never get dumped... Can't wait for issue 35 to read the second part of the article.  

Gaming Illuminati?  Oh that has to go into my Avatar somehow...

Out of curiosity, did they mention any specific titles that people are supposedly holding onto?  I know I've dumped and released all my protos (sans the one or two where I was specifically asked not to release it).

Tempest

[Pixelboy]

Tempest, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:47 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, did they mention any specific titles that people are supposedly holding onto?  I know I've dumped and released all my protos (sans the one or two where I was specifically asked not to release it).

They show mostly hardware (like the Sega Master System disk add-on, a solid-gold diamond-incrusted monochrome Game Boy, Taito's unreleased Wowow console, a cartridge-based dark-pink Game Cube (for dev purposes, apparently), and lots of other obscure stuff like the Mirai) but they also mention some hard-to-find software, like the E3 version of Star Control 4 for PS1 (now owned by a private collector), Ookouchi Gengorou Ikka for the N64 (which was ALMOST dumped), the Nintendo World Championship NES cartridges (of which only 116 exist, 90 grey and 26 gold), or the PAL version of Kizuna Encounter, or Clayfighter Extreme for PS1, or the ultra-rare english copy of Rent-A-Hero for Xbox. I'm skipping a few, but still, it's a fascinating read.  

[Allan]

Pixelboy, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:47 PM, said:

Tempest, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:47 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, did they mention any specific titles that people are supposedly holding onto?  I know I've dumped and released all my protos (sans the one or two where I was specifically asked not to release it).

They show mostly hardware (like the Sega Master System disk add-on, a solid-gold diamond-incrusted monochrome Game Boy, Taito's unreleased Wowow console, a cartridge-based dark-pink Game Cube (for dev purposes, apparently), and lots of other obscure stuff like the Mirai) but they also mention some hard-to-find software, like the E3 version of Star Control 4 for PS1 (now owned by a private collector), Ookouchi Gengorou Ikka for the N64 (which was ALMOST dumped), the Nintendo World Championship NES cartridges (of which only 116 exist, 90 grey and 26 gold), or the PAL version of Kizuna Encounter, or Clayfighter Extreme for PS1, or the ultra-rare english copy of Rent-A-Hero for Xbox. I'm skipping a few, but still, it's a fascinating read.  

So it's all NES or newer? That's OK then.

No, just kidding. It's just one of those things about life you just have to deal with. If someone has a one-of-a-kind prototype, it's their right to keep it. And to all those people who get mad over a prototype not being released, why not get off your LAZY ASS and learn to program yourself? <WHINNY VOICE>I can't. I don't have the time. I'm too busy listening to Britney Spears. Blah Blah Blah. </WHINNY VOICE>

Allan

[supercat]

Allan, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:50 PM, said:

And to all those people who get mad over a prototype not being released, why not get off your LAZY ASS and learn to program yourself? <WHINNY VOICE>I can't. I don't have the time. I'm too busy listening to Britney Spears. Blah Blah Blah. </WHINNY VOICE>

Most of the prototypes I've seen are more interesting as pieces of history than as marvels of programming and gameplay.  Although Good Luck Charlie Brown looks to be coded pretty well, and it does a couple somewhat-tricky things, it probably wouldn't be hard for someone like myself of Thomas Jentzch to program something like that.  But if one of us coded it, it wouldn't show what game was being written 'back in the day'.

If a collector of historical firearms acquires, e.g., the revolver that Annie Oakley (Phoebe Ann Moses) used to shoot a cigarette out of Kaiser Wilhelm's mouth (assuming there were some way to identify that particular gun), he would be interested in it not because it was the world's greatest revolver, but rather because it was the revolver with which Annie Oakley fired a few inches away from Kaiser Wilhelm.  It would be absolutely impossible for anyone to construct a revolver worthy of that description.  The only revolver that could ever bear that distinction would be the one that existed then.

[Allan]

supercat, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:52 PM, said:

Allan, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:50 PM, said:

And to all those people who get mad over a prototype not being released, why not get off your LAZY ASS and learn to program yourself? <WHINNY VOICE>I can't. I don't have the time. I'm too busy listening to Britney Spears. Blah Blah Blah. </WHINNY VOICE>

Most of the prototypes I've seen are more interesting as pieces of history than as marvels of programming and gameplay.  Although Good Luck Charlie Brown looks to be coded pretty well, and it does a couple somewhat-tricky things, it probably wouldn't be hard for someone like myself of Thomas Jentzch to program something like that.  But if one of us coded it, it wouldn't show what game was being written 'back in the day'.

If a collector of historical firearms acquires, e.g., the revolver that Annie Oakley (Phoebe Ann Moses) used to shoot a cigarette out of Kaiser Wilhelm's mouth (assuming there were some way to identify that particular gun), he would be interested in it not because it was the world's greatest revolver, but rather because it was the revolver with which Annie Oakley fired a few inches away from Kaiser Wilhelm.  It would be absolutely impossible for anyone to construct a revolver worthy of that description.  The only revolver that could ever bear that distinction would be the one that existed then.

I agree but generally when people get mad when a prototype isn't released it's simply because they want a copy of it to play. In general you can compare something like a revolver to a prototype but the one distinct difference is that no can make a copy of a physical object and still have it have the same significance as the original. (well maybe but it would cost a lot of money which is a big part of the argument.)  When it come to software though it's a little different. It's kind of fuzzy but there is a difference. For example you don't see people getting mad over somebody having a piece of hardware like a prototype computer or something, but if you don't make a copy of a prototype game and give it out free, than your going to be a target of a lot of hate. If you don't beleive me, try finding a really good unreleased prototype and tell everybody about it. Then when people start saying you should release it because it might get bit rot and it would be lost to the community, make a few back-ups of it and tell everybody what you have done. Then also tell them though that you are not going to release it. Then see how many hate emails and death threats you get from people. Because the truth is they really just wanted a copy of the game for themselves. I'm all for people releasing prototypes. That's great and I think they are great people for doing it. But I also think it's a prototype owner's right to not release it if they so chose, even though I wish they would release it. That's all.

Oh yea, I love the stuff just for the historical aspect a lot. Like Dutchman's recent 5200 E.T. post. I'm sure 90% of the people saw that there was no rom to download and moved along to another post. I, Myself find that stuff facinating and apprieciates him posting it. I also love hearing all the people stories. (and yes I like the games as well. )

Allan

[supercat]

Allan, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:16 PM, said:

I agree but generally when people get mad when a prototype isn't released it's simply because they want a copy of it to play. In general you can compare something like a revolver to a prototype but the one distinct difference is that no can make a copy of a physical object and still have it have the same significance as the original. (well maybe but it would cost a lot of money which is a big part of the argument.)

Cost isn't the issue.  A replica of the revolver Annie Oakley used for the Kaiser Wilhelm demonstration, no matter how perfectly it was constructed, would still not be the actual item she used.

Quote

When it come to software though it's a little different. It's kind of fuzzy but there is a difference. For example you don't see people getting mad over somebody having a piece of hardware like a prototype computer or something, but if you don't make a copy of a prototype game and give it out free, than your going to be a target of a lot of hate. If you don't beleive me, try finding a really good unreleased prototype and tell everybody about it. Then when people start saying you should release it because it might get bit rot and it would be lost to the community, make a few back-ups of it and tell everybody what you have done. Then also tell them though that you are not going to release it. Then see how many hate emails and death threats you get from people. Because the truth is they really just wanted a copy of the game for themselves. I'm all for people releasing prototypes. That's great and I think they are great people for doing it. But I also think it's a prototype owner's right to not release it if they so chose, even though I wish they would release it. That's all.

Someone who boasted of having a particular historic firearm but refused to share pictures or other relevant information about it would not be viewed terribly kindly by the collecting community.  Obviously there are limits to the extent to which a collector can allow people to share in the experience of a physical artifact like a revolver, but many collectors do allow others to share to the extent possible (e.g. by putting their items on display from time to time, exchanging photographs, etc.)

Another issue is the murkiness surrounding the concept of copyright ownership versus physical ownership.  If someone happens to acquire what happens to be the only tangible copy of a work through a transaction not involving the copyright holder, to what extent does or should that person acquire the copyright?  The copyright laws, as written, can sometimes be extremely murky especially in the case of unpublished works by deceased authors.  What I'd like to see would be for the person acquiring the work to receive with it a short-duration copyright.  Copyright protection would encourage the person to publish the work, but because he didn't write the work himself its duration should be short.  I'm not holding my breath for anything so sensible as that, though.

Quote

Oh yea, I love the stuff just for the historical aspect a lot. Like Dutchman's recent 5200 E.T. post. I'm sure 90% of the people saw that there was no rom to download and moved along to another post. I, Myself find that stuff facinating and apprieciates him posting it. I also love hearing all the people stories. (and yes I like the games as well. )

The same way as people might quickly leave an exhibit on historical firearms if they discover it contains nothing but poor-quality photographs that give nothing near the experience provided by the real items.

[Duke 4ever]

Neato

[Crazy Climber]

Foxsolo2000, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:04 PM, said:

Guys, lets face facts here.  I may sound controversial but there probably isn't anyone on here who doesn't feel the same way about this as I do.  We are dealing with a selfish jerk who seems to believe that sitting on this one of a kind prototype will jack up the price that or he gets off on the fact that he owns somehting that none of us will ever experiance.  No doubt others on here will shoot me down in flames but I for one am tired of pussy footing around on this issue.  At least other prototype owners are working with tempest to try and at least give some historical perspective that can be archived.  Perhaps I am just getting jaded on this entire issue and if anyone out there wants to argue the point then go ahead but all I am saying is what most of us already think

OK, I'll bite
I agree but also disagree
Say you own the Pink Panther proto....you know un dumped this will sell for several thousand dollars (actually it already has but as to why it was never completed is still a mystery) So I don't know about you but if it came to releasing the game to the community or having over 3k I would take the money. I just couldn't afford to do something that nice, that is a lot of money and for me personally to pass on that would just be insane. I'm sure a lot of other people would feel the same way if it came to that much cash. It's just not practical. So say you sell the game to someone who can afford to spend that much on a proto, are they obligated to just lose there entire investment by dumping it? I would say no. I think the only fair thing to do would be to take pre orders on reproduction copys of the game before it was dumped. Otherwise the buyer just gets screwed. If he doesn't dump it he is considered a selfish rom hoarder, if he does his once several thousand dollar game is now worth several hundred. I don't blame people for not dumping them, seems like you just can't win.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Why does a proto loose value when it gets dumped?  

A picture does NOT loose value when there a photographs or even copies available.

[Crazy Climber]

Thomas Jentzsch, on Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:03 AM, said:

Why does a proto loose value when it gets dumped?  

A picture does NOT loose value when there a photographs or even copies available.

I don't know why but it does, that's why I feel bad for the buyers of them. Seems like if they don't dump it (and basicly give away thousands of dollars) they are thought of as selfish.

[JL]

Thomas Jentzsch, on Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:03 AM, said:

Why does a proto loose value when it gets dumped?  

A picture does NOT loose value when there a photographs or even copies available.

I more than agree.  To say a dumped proto is worth less than un-dumped is a myth at best, and possibly total lunacy, IMHO. It would indicate that the people willing to spend big money on a proto are the same one's who would be satisfied have said proto mearly as a rom dump for play on emulators. Which is simply as far from the truth as it gets, and shows a total lack of understanding of proto collector's as well as the universal law of supply and demand.

Edited by JL, Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:41 AM.

[Crazy Climber]

Pink Panther (un-dumped) = several thousand dollars
A-Team (dumped) = a hundred bucks or so

[JL]

Crazy Climber, on Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:46 AM, said:

A-Team (dumped) = a hundred bucks or so

Is the 100 you quote a recent sale of that proto, and has it been documented??? How many A-Team's exist?  PLUS - To quote Tempest "If The A-Team looks familiar it's because it is little more than a graphic hack of another unreleased Atari game called Saboteur"* .  Seems like a case of comparing apples and oranges, and in the a-team proto's case an orange that has little appeal regardless of it's "proto" (really hack) status.  Ask Wonder007 or any other advanced proto collector, if it makes any difference whatsoever if Panther being dumped or not correlates to how much he or they are willing to go on the this proto.
My feeling is that all a dump does is eliminate some of the folks from the proto bidding that were going to make the lowest offers which don't affect the final price anyway. Similar to when you see a $5000 item sell on ebay and there are a plethera of bidders with offers of $100 dollars or less.

*=http://www.atariprot...ateam/ateam.htm

Edited by JL, Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:03 AM.

[Tempest]

Crazy Climber, on Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:46 AM, said:

Pink Panther (un-dumped) = several thousand dollars
A-Team (dumped) = a hundred bucks or so

Yes that's true, but there are more reasons for this than just dumped vs undumped.

1. There are several A-Team protos known to exist (I owned 2, and I know of at least 4 others).  There is only 1 known PP proto.
2. PP has a "mystique" about it.  Pictures of the prototype have been floating around the net for ages, but the prototype was MIA.
3. PP is a unique game, A-Team is a hack of a game that has been floating around the net for ages.
4.  Best Electronics sold copies of A-Team at one point.  PP has never been offered for sale.

Honestly though, it's more the fact that there is only one known PP prototype that keeps the price high.  If two or three more are discovered the price will go down, regardless of if it has been dumped or not.  If no other copies are found and the game is dumped, the price will stay high.  It's all about the number of known copies.

Tempest

[Crazy Climber]

I thought there was 2 copys of it? One from the recent auction (the magnavox collector) and another from the guy who all this hype originally started from (the dude that just dissapeared a while ago) Did they end up being the same guy? Or did the Magnavox collector get his from the other guy?

[Tempest]

Crazy Climber, on Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:31 AM, said:

I thought there was 2 copys of it? One from the recent auction (the magnavox collector) and another from the guy who all this hype originally started from (the dude that just dissapeared a while ago) Did they end up being the same guy? Or did the Magnavox collector get his from the other guy?

I don't know.  There may actually be two copies.

Tempest

[Foxsolo2000]

Crazy Climber, on Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:21 AM, said:

Foxsolo2000, on Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:04 PM, said:

Guys, lets face facts here.  I may sound controversial but there probably isn't anyone on here who doesn't feel the same way about this as I do.  We are dealing with a selfish jerk who seems to believe that sitting on this one of a kind prototype will jack up the price that or he gets off on the fact that he owns somehting that none of us will ever experiance.  No doubt others on here will shoot me down in flames but I for one am tired of pussy footing around on this issue.  At least other prototype owners are working with tempest to try and at least give some historical perspective that can be archived.  Perhaps I am just getting jaded on this entire issue and if anyone out there wants to argue the point then go ahead but all I am saying is what most of us already think

OK, I'll bite
I agree but also disagree
Say you own the Pink Panther proto....you know un dumped this will sell for several thousand dollars (actually it already has but as to why it was never completed is still a mystery) So I don't know about you but if it came to releasing the game to the community or having over 3k I would take the money. I just couldn't afford to do something that nice, that is a lot of money and for me personally to pass on that would just be insane. I'm sure a lot of other people would feel the same way if it came to that much cash. It's just not practical. So say you sell the game to someone who can afford to spend that much on a proto, are they obligated to just lose there entire investment by dumping it? I would say no. I think the only fair thing to do would be to take pre orders on reproduction copys of the game before it was dumped. Otherwise the buyer just gets screwed. If he doesn't dump it he is considered a selfish rom hoarder, if he does his once several thousand dollar game is now worth several hundred. I don't blame people for not dumping them, seems like you just can't win.

Thanks for biting   Seriously though the thing is only worth that much insane money because someone wanted to pay that much for it.  I dont believe that it would lose its value if dumped for whoever bought it wanted to own a piece of history for there is only one, arguably two prototypes of this game in existence and no matter if a thousand repos were created there would still only be one original prototype and there would still be collectors out there who pay an insane amount of money just to own it.  Look at Air Raid.  Seven known to exist and yet they still go for thousands despite the fact that there are several hundred repros available.  I would love to know how much Turbo went for but I guess we will never know

[Albert]

Crazy Climber, on Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:46 AM, said:

Pink Panther (un-dumped) = several thousand dollars
A-Team (dumped) = a hundred bucks or so

There is quite a bit more to this than a proto being simply "dumped" or "undumped".  Matt already addressed these points pretty well.  I have several unique prototypes of which no other copies are known to exist anywhere.  These games were dumped and the binaries were released.  The unique prototypes are STILL worth a considerable amount of money and I don't believe they have gone down in value overall.  There are probably SOME collectors who would not want to pay as much for them, but there are plenty of proto collectors overall so this isn't a huge deal.  A one-of-a-kind prototype is STILL a unique piece of hardware and history--this does not change even if the binary has been released.

..Al

[Wonder007]

I agree with Al, Matt and JL, the value of the original proto will retain its value, regardless if it is dumped or not, it all depends on the number of those protos circulating.  For example, I know there are several A-Teams, around six to seven of them   However, sometimes I think it is not the money issue but the copyright issue that might scare some of the one-of-a-kind proto owners from dumping the ROM.

[Crazy Climber]

WOW Looks like I bit off more than I can chew

OK
A-Team was a bad example, I only said that one since it's the one I have seen for sale the most that was an "un-released" game (although true it was just a hack of Sabotuer) and the times I have seen it for sale it usually got around $100. I can't document this but one in a loaner case sold on Atari2600.com about 2 years ago for $120, maybe somebody here got it? Who knows. Anyways, I was also under the impression that there is more than one Pink Panther out there. I was sure I heard a story of a guy with one a long time ago that just dropped out of exsistence and then the second one that was on Ebay recently from the Magnavox collection. If there is only one then nevermind my comment, I realize one of a kind items get a LOT more than 2 of a kind or even possibly 3 of a kind items   Sorry if any one got mad about this I really wasn't trying to do that

[miker]

Well...

Over year has passed, has something happened?