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To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers


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#26 Shannon OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:05 AM

:) All im saying is that these hombrews are not impressive to me ok

Are you sure you nick isn't rjchump3?

#27 espire8 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:13 PM

:) All im saying is that these hombrews are not impressive to me ok


Really? Then I guess your ideas are just too good for any of the homebrewers in this community. :woozy: Perhaps Sony or Microsoft are better suited to accommodate your ideas, as the games they put out make me sick.

#28 rjchamp3 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:26 PM


:) All im saying is that these hombrews are not impressive to me ok

Are you sure you nick isn't rjchump3?


first of all who are you calling a chump, number one i'am not nick, and two I do have great idea's and three, shannon if you have a problem talk to me about it directly, you have no idea who the ....... i am, and it's better you don't :cool:

#29 batari OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:46 PM



:) All im saying is that these hombrews are not impressive to me ok

Are you sure you nick isn't rjchump3?


first of all who are you calling a chump, number one i'am not nick, and two I do have great idea's and three, shannon if you have a problem talk to me about it directly, you have no idea who the ....... i am, and it's better you don't :cool:

Nick=nickname. Plus, you're conceited, you insult homebrewers, and now you're saying what could be construed as a threat? Apparently the clue truck didn't come down your street today.

#30 rjchamp3 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:01 PM




:) All im saying is that these hombrews are not impressive to me ok

Are you sure you nick isn't rjchump3?


first of all who are you calling a chump, number one i'am not nick, and two I do have great idea's and three, shannon if you have a problem talk to me about it directly, you have no idea who the ....... i am, and it's better you don't :cool:

Nick=nickname. Plus, you're conceited, you insult homebrewers, and now you're saying what could be construed as a threat? Apparently the clue truck didn't come down your street today.


I was not trying to insult anyone ok, nor threaten, if I did I would not say anything at all, and ps she insulted me for no reason, enough, I havent said anything in months and then I get attacked for no reason I don't think so

#31 batari OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:32 PM

I was not trying to insult anyone ok, nor threaten, if I did I would not say anything at all, and ps she insulted me for no reason, enough, I havent said anything in months and then I get attacked for no reason I don't think so

You rubbed quite a few members the wrong way with your initial posts in the homebrew forum, and most of us haven't forgotten about that, even though it did occur a while ago. Maybe you've redeemed yourself in other ways since then, I don't know. But I do know that if you can keep your criticism constructive, nobody will be insulted.

#32 PressureCooker2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:30 PM

man, i would love to give an idea to a programmer and see it come to fruitation...i wouldn't want a cent...i would just want a copy for myself to melt in :D maybe my name in the small print too :cool:

#33 espire8 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:10 PM





:) All im saying is that these hombrews are not impressive to me ok

Are you sure you nick isn't rjchump3?


first of all who are you calling a chump, number one i'am not nick, and two I do have great idea's and three, shannon if you have a problem talk to me about it directly, you have no idea who the ....... i am, and it's better you don't :cool:

Nick=nickname. Plus, you're conceited, you insult homebrewers, and now you're saying what could be construed as a threat? Apparently the clue truck didn't come down your street today.


I was not trying to insult anyone ok, nor threaten, if I did I would not say anything at all, and ps she insulted me for no reason, enough, I havent said anything in months and then I get attacked for no reason I don't think so


Yep, that's the attitude.
rjchamp3, if someone responds to the way you presented yourself in your earlier posts, if it were today or ten years ago -it's not there fault, esspecially if the post remains there as a closed case comment for all to sneeze at. People may come across it everyday and take mental note of it's demeanor. I don't know if you still stand behind your past comments but, if I may suggest, maybe you should go back and edit them, esspecialy your criticism towards the homebrew community, because you were not so polite with them either, --and that's not cool :thumbsdown: . Besides, we're here as a community, not as enemies, and you did'nt have to answer the way you did in your next to last post above. In layman's terms, --You just need to change your attitude is all. :|

Edited by espire8, Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:16 PM.


#34 PressureCooker2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:13 PM

yea...everyone here at AA just stay cool...we're like a different breed...a level above the rest :evil:

#35 CV Gus OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2006 1:39 PM

But there's something else-

Even worse is if nobody buys any of the homebrew games. Its not enough to say "cool, somebody is making new games for (whatever)", if you want them to keep doing that, you have to put up the cash. They won't make new games just to see them pile up unsold.

Edited by CV Gus, Thu Nov 9, 2006 1:40 PM.


#36 espire8 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2006 10:42 PM

But there's something else-

Even worse is if nobody buys any of the homebrew games. Its not enough to say "cool, somebody is making new games for (whatever)", if you want them to keep doing that, you have to put up the cash. They won't make new games just to see them pile up unsold.

Well, they do upon being released have to be listed and available in the AA store first for that to happen. :P ....as i'm already aware, there are still quite a few homebrews i'm waiting to buy :love: ..that are still listed under the 'In Development' page :sad: .

#37 batari OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2006 11:05 PM

Well, they do upon being released have to be listed and available in the AA store first for that to happen. :P ....as i'm already aware, there are still quite a few homebrews i'm waiting to buy :love: ..that are still listed under the 'In Development' page :sad: .

Ahh... yes. AA's "vaporware" page.

OK, maybe that was harsh. 3 of the games on that page are NOT vaporware :evil:

#38 Albert OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2006 11:29 PM


Well, they do upon being released have to be listed and available in the AA store first for that to happen. :P ....as i'm already aware, there are still quite a few homebrews i'm waiting to buy :love: ..that are still listed under the 'In Development' page :sad: .

Ahh... yes. AA's "vaporware" page.

OK, maybe that was harsh. 3 of the games on that page are NOT vaporware :evil:

There's a lot more vaporware than listed on that page. And yes, it's out of date and needs an update badly.

..Al

#39 shadow460 OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Nov 9, 2006 11:31 PM

Let me support vdub_bobby's original post. Anyone who's got just a killer idea for a video game that they think is so great it has to come out right now needs to write just 1K of the code needed to make MARIA display it. Just 1K. I think that will convince them to either finish their own game or be a whole lot more diplomatic.
I've got a goal--there's a game I'd like to see on the ProSystem. I'm not taking it on for cash or recognition--I just want to see it on the ProSystem and hear it's music play.
So I'm going to attempt to port the game myself, learning to code for the 7800 in the process. I, too, may not ever see my idea come to light, but at least I know I was willing to try, and to put the sweat into it. I've already seen and done things with my 7800 that I couldn't have touched a year ago. Badgering someone to program your game idea robs you of that experience, and it robs you of the knowledge to program and/or build hardware.
I've got a lot of respect for people who can repair the hardware, yes, but I've got even more for those who can program it and even design new devices that their games will need.

Once I began to study 6502 code and MARIA code, I got about 56 idea for games to program, and there's no way I can do them all at once.

You got an idea? Think it's the bomb? Buy the hardware you need and start coding, then. Everything you need is available on these forums.

Test #1: Are you willing to shell out for the custom hardware you'll need to test your game on an actual Atari? That was DevOS in my case, and I still need to build at least one more RAM cart.

Test #2: Are you willing to spend a lot of your evenings writing it?

Test #3: Are you willing to take your own time and learn to build the necessary hardware?

If you answered no to any of these questions, then don't even bother.

On the plus side, if you do learn some of this stuff, you might find you actually like doing it. I thouroughly enjoy tinkering with the actual hardware, and I always have.

#40 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:47 PM

I've got this killer idea for an Atari 2600 game.

It has a guy... and he runs... and jumps and stuff. While collecting things. Or maybe eating them. I guess he could have a gun, or flamethrower, or maybe just mutant kickass fighting powers. That would be good. but the graphics are cool, and he is being chased by these enemies. I guess they could be ghosts, but, they could also be spies, or um... like, bear-traps might work as well. Monkeys are always good. Evil monkeys. German nazi zombies? I'm not real sure on this, so, the guy who writes the game can decide, that is ok with me. Anyhow.. so the goal is to get something. Maybe a few things, like a princess, or a few pieces of a broken thing. I dunno, but I'm sure you can figure it out. But, it is important that this game have more modern graphics. I'm thinking along the lines of the GTA games. Not the first or second suckass GTA games. The ones that came after. You know what I mean. But, on the 2600. How could would that be?!? So, then... we're on the same page, right? Which one of you dumbass good for nothing Atari programmers is going to get cracking on this brilliant idea and make it a reality? I swear to God, it is so upsetting that you guys have all these great ideas brought to you and you still inisist on doing your OWN lame ass projects that nobody buy you wants to play.

:D

#41 Robert M OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:21 PM

I've got this killer idea for an Atari 2600 game.

It has a guy... and he runs... and jumps and stuff. While collecting things. Or maybe eating them. I guess he could have a gun, or flamethrower, or maybe just mutant kickass fighting powers. That would be good. but the graphics are cool, and he is being chased by these enemies. I guess they could be ghosts, but, they could also be spies, or um... like, bear-traps might work as well. Monkeys are always good. Evil monkeys. German nazi zombies? I'm not real sure on this, so, the guy who writes the game can decide, that is ok with me. Anyhow.. so the goal is to get something. Maybe a few things, like a princess, or a few pieces of a broken thing. I dunno, but I'm sure you can figure it out. But, it is important that this game have more modern graphics. I'm thinking along the lines of the GTA games. Not the first or second suckass GTA games. The ones that came after. You know what I mean. But, on the 2600. How could would that be?!? So, then... we're on the same page, right? Which one of you dumbass good for nothing Atari programmers is going to get cracking on this brilliant idea and make it a reality? I swear to God, it is so upsetting that you guys have all these great ideas brought to you and you still inisist on doing your OWN lame ass projects that nobody buy you wants to play.

:D


LOL! That's one of the better awesome game designs I have read. I have followed up with a few would be designers via PM, and they always rapidly trail off into extremely vague descriptions just like your joke post. If someone posted a TRUE game design with lots and lots of detailed design information and the design was good, then I think they could get a programmer's attention.

What's in a good game design:
- Backstories are nice and help to sell your idea, but they are all fluff. The game is the objects on the screen, how they move and interact. So write a backstory if you have one you like, but the story is not the game.
- Many highly detailed screen mockups. A mockup showing every major event or situation in the game. (Don't worry about eye candy, that's fluff to be added later as possible. What are the visual elements that are integral to the game design?)
- List all game objects: Name, attributes, states/classes-of-behavior, purpose ...
- Detailed timing to showing how the game runs. How fast does everything move. In what ways do things move. You know the resolution of the screen and the size of the game objects and their speeds. Can the player jump the pit? Can the player/monster fit through the door? Can the player accomplish all the required tasks to win in the amount of time your design allocates?
- Detailed control explanations. Responsiveness, timing, if the character jumps how does gravity look/work. e.g. Can the player jump off a ladder? You should try to enumerate all game playfield element to player combinations that are relevant to control. For example in Pitfall when the player is standing still and then the player pushes left or right the game will wait for 1 frame to see if the joystick is actually traveling to a diagonal position to request a jump. Without that control design the game would not play as well because the player standing on the edge of a cliff trying to jump will fall off instead.
- Collision Detection/Results: What object collisions need to be monitored. List all possible object collisions. What happens in each collision case? Does collision detection need to be pixel perfect, or by overlapping mathematical zones. (For example: In arcade Pac-Man the player can touch the ghosts at maze corners and not die. In VCS Pac-Man, collision is pixel perfect. It makes a big difference in the gameplay.)
- Scenarios and sequence diagrams as appropriate to explain game mechanics in detail.
- How will difficulty be ramped. What timing and movement parameters will change? Did you do any math to support your position/design choices? (i.e. Does the player have enough fire power? Too much fire power? Your design says how fast and strong the enemies are, so can the player win? Can the player lose?)
- What game elements are essential, and which ones are optional. If items can not be done on the VCS, they will need to be cut from your design. Is your design flexible enough to handle changes? Are you flexible enough to handle changes? ;)

Cheers!

#42 PressureCooker2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:44 PM

i just read some of the original posts since this thread was revived and almost laughed my ass off when "The Champ" said his ideas were "out of this world".... :lolblue: :lolblue:
and now after he insulted the homebrewer community BIG TIME!!!!! he wants them to make him a copy of Elevator Action......great way to get people to like ya mac :cool:

#43 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:38 AM

I have followed up with a few would be designers via PM, and they always rapidly trail off into extremely vague descriptions just like your joke post. If someone posted a TRUE game design with lots and lots of detailed design information and the design was good, then I think they could get a programmer's attention.

What's in a good game design:
- Backstories are nice and help to sell your idea, but they are all fluff. The game is the objects on the screen, how they move and interact. So write a backstory if you have one you like, but the story is not the game.
- Many highly detailed screen mockups. A mockup showing every major event or situation in the game. (Don't worry about eye candy, that's fluff to be added later as possible. What are the visual elements that are integral to the game design?)
- List all game objects: Name, attributes, states/classes-of-behavior, purpose ...
- Detailed timing to showing how the game runs. How fast does everything move. In what ways do things move. You know the resolution of the screen and the size of the game objects and their speeds. Can the player jump the pit? Can the player/monster fit through the door? Can the player accomplish all the required tasks to win in the amount of time your design allocates?
- Detailed control explanations. Responsiveness, timing, if the character jumps how does gravity look/work. e.g. Can the player jump off a ladder? You should try to enumerate all game playfield element to player combinations that are relevant to control. For example in Pitfall when the player is standing still and then the player pushes left or right the game will wait for 1 frame to see if the joystick is actually traveling to a diagonal position to request a jump. Without that control design the game would not play as well because the player standing on the edge of a cliff trying to jump will fall off instead.
- Collision Detection/Results: What object collisions need to be monitored. List all possible object collisions. What happens in each collision case? Does collision detection need to be pixel perfect, or by overlapping mathematical zones. (For example: In arcade Pac-Man the player can touch the ghosts at maze corners and not die. In VCS Pac-Man, collision is pixel perfect. It makes a big difference in the gameplay.)
- Scenarios and sequence diagrams as appropriate to explain game mechanics in detail.
- How will difficulty be ramped. What timing and movement parameters will change? Did you do any math to support your position/design choices? (i.e. Does the player have enough fire power? Too much fire power? Your design says how fast and strong the enemies are, so can the player win? Can the player lose?)
- What game elements are essential, and which ones are optional. If items can not be done on the VCS, they will need to be cut from your design. Is your design flexible enough to handle changes? Are you flexible enough to handle changes? ;)

Do you realize that what you're proposing here doesn't make much sense? This thread is aimed at idea peddlers, and such people are usually non-programmers by very definition. Most of your list above involves a good understanding of the hardware (capabilities as well as limits) and how programming in-game objects can be done on said hardware. If someone with a good idea has such a technical understanding, he doesn't need to "peddle" his idea around, he can just try to do it himself (and a few actually do just that, BTW).

So this is where your "list" doesn't make sense: For a non-programmer to elaborate on a game idea enough to satisfy your list, he would need the input of an experienced programmer who is interested in seing the "idea" become a real game. But in order to get an experienced programmer interested, the non-programmer needs to get everything already all worked out! It's a regular catch-22!

From the reactions I've seen on these boards to idea peddlers (which has led to the creation of this forum thread), experienced homebrew programmers are NOT interested in coding other people's ideas, no matter how well thought-out they may be, but they ARE interested in helping newbies learn to program games themselves.

I think that's the real message we should all uphold when an idea peddler comes on these boards: "You have a good game idea but don't know how to program it? We'll help you learn the ropes so you can code your game yourself. If you don't want to learn how to program for your target system, don't expect us experienced homebrew authors to do the work for you."

#44 Thomas Jentzsch OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:11 AM

Most of your list above involves a good understanding of the hardware (capabilities as well as limits)...

I didn't find any such points. All points are very abstract, IMO sometimes even too abstract, since at least a basic understanding of the capabilities is absolutely necessary.

...and how programming in-game objects can be done on said hardware. If someone with a good idea has such a technical understanding, he doesn't need to "peddle" his idea around, he can just try to do it himself (and a few actually do just that, BTW).

There is a huge difference between being able to design a game and to program it.

From the reactions I've seen on these boards to idea peddlers (which has led to the creation of this forum thread), experienced homebrew programmers are NOT interested in coding other people's ideas, no matter how well thought-out they may be...

This is absolutely not true. Yes, most of us homebrewers already have a long todo list, but if someone presents an interesting, unique, very elaborated new idea there is a good chance that a homebrewer puts it high on his list.

...but they ARE interested in helping newbies learn to program games themselves.

Sure. The more, the better.

I think that's the real message we should all uphold when an idea peddler comes on these boards: "You have a good game idea but don't know how to program it? We'll help you learn the ropes so you can code your game yourself. If you don't want to learn how to program for your target system, don't expect us experienced homebrew authors to do the work for you."

A good game design requires some basic(!) technical understanding. Which is expected here, that much is true. Everything else: see above.

#45 shadow460 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:38 AM

More people who learn to program their own homebrews = more homwbrews and a slightly higher chance a peddled idea gets used. Simple, really.

No disrespect to the homebrew authors here, but if you, the idea peddler, want to see a game come out via homebrew, don't you think it would get done faster if you do it yourself?

#46 PressureCooker2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:33 AM

i personally LOVE ya'll homebrewers....doing stuff i can only dream about......but i think everyone has ideas and EVERYONE has the right at least to throw them on the table.....but they don't have the right to harass the programmers and keep posting, saying "MAKE MY GAME NOW". But us peddlers don't have the right to make post after post of ideas.......
Plus.....people like us can learn how to program OURSELVES by learning from ya'll great homebrewers.......Batari has a whole friggin forum for it.......
homebrews (good ones) take a reasonable amount of time and most of us have full-time jobs around here and sometimes its hard to find the free time to program these games. it may take awhile and get sidetracked but it will get done.....just bear with them. they are doing it for the joy of it and for the Atari community.....thank you guys :cool:

#47 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:43 AM

I've got this killer idea for an Atari 2600 game.

It has a guy... and he runs... and jumps and stuff. While collecting things. Or maybe eating them. I guess he could have a gun, or flamethrower, or maybe just mutant kickass fighting powers. That would be good. but the graphics are cool, and he is being chased by these enemies. I guess they could be ghosts, but, they could also be spies, or um... like, bear-traps might work as well. Monkeys are always good. Evil monkeys. German nazi zombies? I'm not real sure on this, so, the guy who writes the game can decide, that is ok with me. Anyhow.. so the goal is to get something. Maybe a few things, like a princess, or a few pieces of a broken thing. I dunno, but I'm sure you can figure it out. But, it is important that this game have more modern graphics. I'm thinking along the lines of the GTA games. Not the first or second suckass GTA games. The ones that came after. You know what I mean. But, on the 2600. How could would that be?!? So, then... we're on the same page, right? Which one of you dumbass good for nothing Atari programmers is going to get cracking on this brilliant idea and make it a reality? I swear to God, it is so upsetting that you guys have all these great ideas brought to you and you still inisist on doing your OWN lame ass projects that nobody buy you wants to play.

:D



Um... I'm still waiting... what is the matter with you people? Make my game... NOW... or there will be consequences...

#48 PressureCooker2600 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:52 AM

hey paranoid.....this has nothing to do with YOUR game idea ;) but anyone been keeping tabs on that Grand Theft Auto NES game thats being made

#49 Pixelboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:45 PM


Most of your list above involves a good understanding of the hardware (capabilities as well as limits)...

I didn't find any such points. All points are very abstract, IMO sometimes even too abstract, since at least a basic understanding of the capabilities is absolutely necessary.

I'd say the needed knowledge is more than basic. One example I can cite is the point about "Detailed timing": Any non-programmer will be hard-pressed to come up with this kind of information on his own. The same applies to the other point about "Detailed control explanations", since programming object behaviors and physics is usually more a case of trial and error, where you start with a certain system and then tweak it until the desired result is reached. This falls somewhat outside the realm of a non-programmer's grasp. And again, I can say the same thing about "how difficulty will be ramped".

...and how programming in-game objects can be done on said hardware. If someone with a good idea has such a technical understanding, he doesn't need to "peddle" his idea around, he can just try to do it himself (and a few actually do just that, BTW).

There is a huge difference between being able to design a game and to program it.

Agreed, but in real life, this notion is blurred because there are two sides to this particular medal: On the non-programmer's side, a game design is hard to convey, even when the person puts a lot of effort into documentation, diagrams and mockups (I'm talking about a brand new game, BTW, not a conversion proposal like Prince of Persia for example, where the game mechanics are already established). On the programmer's side, it's always easy to find flaws or technical impossibilities (especially on the Atari 2600) and this carries a definite influence on game design. On newer consoles (like say, the NES), it's easier to separate the design phase from the programming phase, but even in that case, there's always some conceptual overlap, because any design has to take into account the capabilities and limits of the machine.

From the reactions I've seen on these boards to idea peddlers (which has led to the creation of this forum thread), experienced homebrew programmers are NOT interested in coding other people's ideas, no matter how well thought-out they may be...

This is absolutely not true. Yes, most of us homebrewers already have a long todo list, but if someone presents an interesting, unique, very elaborated new idea there is a good chance that a homebrewer puts it high on his list.

I'm willing to admit that I haven't kept up with every homebrew story on these boards, but I've seen plenty of instances where someone posts a mockup, some interesting discussions about feasibility occur, and nothing comes out of it beyond that. In my opinion, it's very, very hard to get homebrewers seriously interested in something they didn't come up with themselves, because as you say, they already have a long to-do list, with projects that are stimulating enough without external input. Of course, that's just my opinion, and I'm sure you can find some examples of accepted project proposals (like opcode volunteering to realize Arkanoid on the ColecoVision according to mockups I posted in the homebrew discussion forum, although that project is currently on ice at the moment). But it doesn't change the fact that there is a certain "club mentality" to homebrew programming, and only very talented non-programmers with a real flair for game design can get in.

Edited by Pixelboy, Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:55 PM.


#50 Inky OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:47 PM

I've got a great idea for a game...

A port of Half-Life 2 INCLUDING Steam!

I know it will work on the 2600, but I can't be bothered to program it as I'm much more important than all of you.
















[/sarcasm] :D




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