Fine then

[Idea Revolutions]

All right, since you've have been just big helps(pause as I laugh at my own sarcasm), I have decided to go with it. We have 3 members now, and we're going to TRY to make a game. Except that we don't know anything, at all. If you guys could be a bit of a help and give us all we need to know, especially how much it costs, then we will make games. We are each going to try to make a game apiece, meaning that we can get 3 Idea Revolutions games out, for starters. So there. We are a company, and we are going to commit suicide by trying to make our own games. You win.

[Adriana]

Atari Arts, why do I have the feeling that you have NO IDEA about the Atari 2600 programming community that already exists out there? You talk about this new "company" (and that word is in quotes for a reason) as if it's this brand-new revolutionary retro-gaming concept, when the fact is, other people have been making homebrew Atari 2600 games for years now. Randy Crihfield at Hozer Video Games pretty much owns the homebrew market. You program a game, and he handles the manufacturing and sales. A few people don't use him, but these are for limited edition releases -- once they're gone, they're not going to be bothered with making any more.

 

If you're serious about this -- and you sound about as serious as a 12-year-old with pipe dreams -- then you would join the Stella discussion list and network with other programmers. You sound like me, when I was 8 years old, drawing a picture of a car, and sending it to a several car companies, hoping they would make a car that looked just like it. Did I know the first thing about the mechanics of a car at the tender age of 8? Hells, no! Was I a naive person with big dreams? Yes.

 

Before you jump into something like this -- DO YOUR RESEARCH. Just like anyone who wants to start a "company," you check things out first.

[Chris++]

Atari Arts,

You should get online help with learning Stella Assembly, practice the craft until you're confident about undertaking a real game, and then release a cartridge -- just to really show all these jaded clowns.

 

Believe it or not, most of these people are extremely helpful if you word your questions right. Just ask about which direction you should start in from the beginning, and you're likely to get several responses without the silly insults.

I can't help, because I'm a Commodore 64 programmer, and I'm the first to admit that I know nothing about the hundreds of little nuances and idiosyncracies involved in coding a good VCS game. But one thing I can tell you, no matter what machine you're programming for: STUDY OTHERS' CODE. Developers of modern-day 2600 games will be very helpful if you ask them specific questions about their programs. Just don't rip anyone off, and you'll have their support! There's nothing we like to see more than new 2600 games!

 

CF

 

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: Chris Federico ]

[Cybergoth]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atari Arts:

Except that we don't know anything, at all. If you guys could be a bit of a help and give us all we need to know, especially how much it costs, then we will make games.

---

 

Uhm... ok. How do you make a 2600 game.

 

- Go to The Dig

 

- Download _everything_ that's offered there. All tools, all documentation, all sources, whatever is there, download it.

 

- Read the manuals of the tools and learn using them.

 

- If can't program 65XX assembly: Go to used-bookstores, flea-markets, libraries, whatever and try getting every book about 65XX assembly that was ever written. Look for stuff like "Assembly for C64" (Apple, Atari...) as well. Read all these and learn 65XX assembly.

 

- Start reading the 2600 programming documentation you downloaded from The Dig half a year ago

 

- Start reading the 2600 sources

 

- Now, after you did all of this, you might consider joining the stella mailing list, to further discuss programming the 2600.

 

- Now programm your game.

 

Once you've done with this, just ask again, how to continue. Costs so far: 0$!

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[Chris++]

Excellent! See, Atari Arts, just print out Cybergoth's post and use it as your "general to-do list." It's as close to perfection as you're going to get, regarding a guide to learning Stella coding!

 

CF

[Chris++]

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: Chris Federico ]

[Snider-man]

You serious? Fine. We'll treat you like you're serious.

 

If you want to begin programming for the Atari 2600, you're going to need an assembler, a text editor, and an Atari emulator for starters. Here are some links that will take you to the programs you need:

Nick's 2600 Programming Page

"Complete" Guide to 2600 Programming

 

You'll want to subscribe to the StellaLIst - where all the current 2600 programmers hang out and trade ideas. There's also an extensive archieve going back several years that shows the progress and thoughts that go into programming a game from scratch:

The Stella List Archieves

 

You'll also need to bookmark The Dig. This 2600 resourse collects snippits of code and kernals that have worked in the past. HOw you implement them into your own ASM program is up to you:

The Dig - 2600 Code Archieves

 

If - and that's a big goddamn "if" - you finish a game program, you can have Randy at Hozer Video Games burn it onto an EPROM for you. He'll even assemble the full carts and distribute the game if you wish. At this time, he's one of the chief suppliers of 2600 homebrews.

Hozer Video Games

 

You can also try Junie of Junie's Creations for your game production:

Junies Creations

 

There. You honestly have *everything* you need to begin programming, debugging, coding, and production of your project. I took a few minutes of my time assembling all of this info in one comprehensive message because you wanted to be taken seriously. Until you can come back with more than "I got an awesome idea" and can actually say "I'm trying to figure out why my HMOVE line isn't working in this kernal," no one will *ever* take you seriously.

 

Go ahead. Start reading and compiling. Please prove me wrong. I wish you luck. If these links don't help, then you are in *way* over your head.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atari Arts:

We are a company, and we are going to commit suicide by trying to make our own games. You win.

---

As being ignorant (arrogant?) won't help you, her are some hints from somebody who knows:

 

1. Learn 650x assembler. The best platform to do so, are Atari 8-Bit computers or the C64. Do not try to learn directly on the 2600.

2. When you understand the basics of assembler, read the Stella Programmer's Guide.

3. Try to understand and modify simple example code (e.g. How To Draw A Playfield)

4. Browse the archives of the Stella Mailing List and have a look at other peoples code

5. Join the list and start asking (somehow intelligent) questions. I can assure you 100%, that everybody will be very helpful then, because at that moment you have proven already, that you are willing to invested a lot of effort.

 

But at the moment, I would bet, that 5. will never happen. (experience shows that most people will stop at 1.)

 

Please, prove that I'm wrong.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Wow boys, you are fast.

 

At least, they have no reason for sarcasm anymore.

[Chris++]

Listen to this guy as well, Chad. His Thrust games RULE.

[Snider-man]

Chad, Chris, and anyone else who thinks the 2600 "elitists" were tough on ol' Atari Arts/Idea Somethings, just follow me on this little trip in the WayBak Machine:

 

First, there's this gem from the past:

PROGRAMMER NEEDED

 

Then this:

Programmer needed for series of homebrew games

 

And this:

help me develop a game

 

In other words, the approach AA used today happens a LOT. "Make my game for me." The 2600 programmers are *tired* of it. Every 3 or 4 months, it happens again. Yes, there could've been a bit more hand-holding and calm explanations as to why this is not a good idea and how you'll want to go about creating your wonderful game.

 

Once it was pointed out - however brusquely - that this was a bad idea, turning around and attacking the very folks who KEEP THE 2600 COMMUNITY IN NEW GAMES was not exactly the brightest thing to do. It's like telling your driving instructor that they don't know what they're doing and you're a much better driver than they are. Guaranteed failure and a guaranteed bus pass for life.

 

My point, let's have a little less shouting from everyone. More mutual respect. To some of you, I say "Shut up and listen to those who are experienced." To others (and I include myself in here), I say "Shut up and show the new guy a little support."

 

And, c'mon everyone, hugs all around!

[Nukey Shay]

Uh...I haven't showered for days since this "second bat" thing started, so a group hug might not be a good idea.

(My bedroom is covered in code patches, much like that bell tower in "The Omen")

[DuckandCover]

As someone who's still plodding through Step 1, I have found www.6502.org very helpful in terms of learning 6502 assembly. There's a book list, links to assemblers and other utilities, and a lot of other useful stuff.

 

[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: duckandcover ]

[Mindfield]

I'm all for the design of new VCS games. One of these days, when I have the time and, frankly, the werewithal to actually sit down and puzzle it out, I'd love to dig into it myself. I've done 6502 assembler -- I'm not even close to an expert, and it's been years since I touched Mac/65, but I can say "Been there, done that." -- but the hesitant look at the VCS internals has left me a bit ... erm ... shaken. :-) And therein lies the crux of the problem.

 

Back in the day, when I got my first computer -- a 600XL -- I had nothing to do but program it, since I had no games or anything other than the actual machine and its manuals. Thus, I developed a love of coding. Learning the 8-bit, while time consuming, was fun, and I worked out several flavours of BASIC and 6502 assembler. It was cool. But looking at the internals of the VCS is almost nothing like 8-bit coding. On the 8-bit, if I had an idea, I could usually bring it to fruition. The VCS though is several orders of magnitude more complicated because of its strangulating restrictions. While learning 6502 isn't all that hard, putting it to practise inside a 2600 is something altogether different.

 

It just seems to me that AA/IR has some wonderful ideas and a passion to get them realized -- and that's good -- but has no concept of what is actually involved in coding on the 2600. If learning 6502 doesn't daunt him, figuring out how to fit it into a little 4K address space and actually make it do something useful will certainly try.

 

What I will say is: Best of Luck. If you can pull it off, all power to you. We'd all love to see some new stuff on the ol' 2600 -- there's no such thing as too many homebrewers. Just don't expect to pick it up in a few weeks. There a lot to learn, and even more getting what you've learned to actually work.

 

Patience, Grasshopper. You'll need it.

[liquid_sky]

my advice to you... disassemble some code.. try changing some things, reassemble it.. play it through an emulator.. try to learn by reverse means possibly. might work for you, it might not.

 

Just an alternative way to begin learning... trust me, its some hard shit to learn.

 

Do you have any programming experiance with any other language? That might be something to help you out with.. even if the languages are totally different, you will at least have some footing in the logic, as well as the frusteration.

[Nukey Shay]

* notes how much useful information was suddenly gained by Atari Arts' mere implication that there might be new stuff coming to the 2600

 

 

Remember, these guys really do want to help. They even answer my stupid hack posts.

[Atari Master]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cybergoth:

Uhm... ok. How do you make a 2600 game.

 

- Go to

The Dig

 

- Download _everything_ that's offered there. All tools, all documentation, all sources, whatever is there, download it.

 

- Read the manuals of the tools and learn using them.

 

- If can't program 65XX assembly: Go to used-bookstores, flea-markets, libraries, whatever and try getting every book about 65XX assembly that was ever written. Look for stuff like "Assembly for C64" (Apple, Atari...) as well. Read all these and learn 65XX assembly.

 

- Start reading the 2600 programming documentation you downloaded from The Dig half a year ago

 

- Start reading the 2600 sources

 

- Now, after you did all of this, you might consider joining the stella mailing list, to further discuss programming the 2600.

 

- Now programm your game.

 

Once you've done with this, just ask again, how to continue. Costs so far: 0$!

 

Greetings,

Manuel

---

 

I just printed that out just toi remember what books i'm gonan need. I think I saw some books like this.

[bloatedmonkey]

quote

...since you've have been just big helps(pause as I laugh at my own sarcasm).....So there. We are a company, and we are going to commit suicide by trying to make our own games. You win.

I,like you, have no idea how to program an Atari game. I get excited when I can write an Excel macro, so Atari programming's a ways off for me. Yet, I have about 20 ideas for Atari games I would like to make. But I don't even know which are possible, so what use am I? Concepts are easy. Implementing them is the challenge. Proclaiming that you're contributing to the effort by just dreaming up ideas is insulting to the people here who spend many months (sometimes years) to make their concepts reality. So don't be pissy that nobody jumped at your offer. On the other hand, I hope you succeed. I might buy your game even if it's only mediocre.

 

By the way, I've already discussed with my wife that when we win the lottery, I'm going to quit my job and write a 2600 game. Maybe a monkey that eats too much and needs some Pepto Bismol. Unless someone wants to program that for me? I only ask for a $1000 royalty.

[Trey]

there's been a plenty-o-technical advice so i thought i'd offer up marketing data:

 

personally, i'm not interested in any new 2600 game. however, 20 years from now, i might be in a thrift store looking for the IR holy grail. or posting on this board looking for the lost IR dumping ground.

 

good luck.

[Nukey Shay]

Looking at those initials, I just realized something very cruel.

 

But I'll shut up while everyone is in such a good mood.

[Cassidy Nolen]

Hmm,

 

Have to say, I have read these threads, and they sound like there need to be some hugs.

 

We are a community, whether we admit it or not, we are the foothold the past has to our future. We do not throw out the woodgrain, we idolize it, and showcase them proudly.

 

AA might very well have the next big hit on their hands. I have a better chance of breathing underwater than ever actually writing my own game, but I know my experience here on AtariAge has taught me how to manufacture game carts from scratch, different bankswitching schemes, great support, and above all, fun.

 

I hope that we as a group can do the following:

 

1. Not tick off the Messiahs that write the new games. Not hackers, like me, but the real-deals.

 

2. Support up and coming programmers, as this is a long road. We should make sure there are pit stops along the way.

 

3. Suggest good things like 6502.org or DASM sites, etc. So much good info is out there, its worth a link page in itself (probably is already one out there).

 

4. Have fun! We all work out rears off to afford these luxuries (aka overpriced electronic antiques!), live a little and support the new guys!

 

 

By the way: To AA, you guys should probably start by playing a bunch of 2600 games. Sounds hokey, but get a feel for what you can and cannot do on the screen. Its easier to figure out things if you know what they will look like in the end.

 

Good luck.

 

Cassidy

[Snider-man]

You know what's fascinating about this specific thread? For a string of messages that started off as a pi**ing contest, there's been more helpful 2600 programming advice listed than ever before. Links, advice, step-by-steps, etc. all gathered into one neat place. This is the kind of thread that needs to be archieved so future "I wanna make a gamers" can be sent here to gather up the info they need.

[Nukey Shay]

Sage advice. Just by playing games on the console, you can ask yourself questions like...

"Why did they use THAT shape?"

"Why do those things flash so much?"

"Boy, I am hungry...I wonder if there's pizza in the fridge?"

Approaching it from that angle can also give you a better sense of what you can do.

 

Time for pizza.

[Nukey Shay]

Snider-man--

I thought that as well...I already have it bookmarked

[Stella'sGhost]

Atari Arts sounds as if he did about 3 minutes of research before posting here, that's why everyone here is so "negative", including me, like do you think you are the first guy to come up with this idea???

 

I'm willing to bet you have never coded anything before, because if you did you would not have come across as being so clueless.

 

At any rate, you first should code a simple game in BASIC, or try LINGO for Macromedia Director, where you can control sprites and collisions in a fairly simplifed language - yet LINGO is pretty powerfull too- if you can pull off an Asteroids clone in Director then you are at least on your way, because if you think you are going to code a 2600 game from scratch, you will never figure it out.... well, you might if you have 8 hours a day to spare for a year and/or are a programming prodigy.

 

Most coders do not need any ideas from anyone, they have their own.

 

Sure this is a community, but we are also intelligent, so do some research or something before you post such a silly idea on here....

 

I too have several games I have programmed in Basic and in Lingo, and I would love to port them to the 2600, but I'll probably try to port them to the Atari XE first..and even that is going to take me years.... I am self taught as far as coding goes, and I only know a few things about assembly (Like to stay away from it!)

 

Still as I always say, you may as well give it a shot, you can only fail....