Original "Sweet 16" Atari 1000 PCB found...

[Curt Vendel]

While doing some research for Glenn Bruner on the 1400XL, I was going through several folders of 1400XL materials when I saw in the back of one another folder I'd not previously noticed...

 

After a quick initial review of the PCB films it appeared in all likelyhood to just be a set of 1200XL films, but then something caught my eye in the upper right corner of the film...

 

Where the heatsink normally resided on the production 1200XL's I noticed on these films an odd item - a 50 Pin header footprint, so then I thought perhaps this may be an earlier 1400XL variant...

 

Giving the films a closer review I then noticed the next unusual item(s) where the 13 pin unique SIO connector footprint should've been were a pair of DB-15 connectors daisy-chained together with lines on the film. The ONLY device to ever make such mention was the original 1000 and 1000X "Sweet-16" prototype designs of what would eventually become the 1200XL's...

 

Next and final clue to pull it all together - Model # 6AX Copyright 1982...

 

This is definitely the long lost Atari 1000 series computer system, the original replacement for the Atari 800 (also referred to as the Atari Z800 as well) codenamed "Sweet 16".

 

I am going to discuss further with Glenn and I'm going to see about finding a facility that can still work with PCB fab films and get a small run of maybe 10 boards made so there is something physical to examine, but the Atari 1000/1000X have gone from just myth to reality, this also means that if these films were made, that means there could very well still be an actual Atari 1000 or 1000X floating around out there somewhere...

 

 

 

 

Curt

[DEBRO]

[danwinslow]

Curt that is incredible. The work you do for the Atari community is just awe inspiring. I would be willing to contribute to a board run.

[doctorclu]

Curt that is incredible. The work you do for the Atari community is just awe inspiring. I would be willing to contribute to a board run.

1018858[/snapback]

 

Kinda like extracting dinosaurs from misquitos in amber. (Watched PBS and Nova last night) Truly exciting.

[Almost Rice]

Great find. Could you elaborate on the significance of this?

[Curt Vendel]

For many years I had spoke with several Atari engineers - Dave Sovey in particular put me on a track discussing that the Atari 1200XL had a side by side sister project and then later I would find the Sweet-16 document which detailed a much more capable Atari 800 replacement computer system designated the Atari CX-1000

 

 

Did you ever notice, when the 1200 computer came out, why weren't the peripherals named Atari 1210 cassette recorder instead of 1010 or the 1250 Disk drive instead of the 1050... that is because the peripherals were designed for the new 1000 series computer system.

 

 

I had heard that when the 1200XL bombed, that the original design was pulled from the mothballs and in fact the Atari 1400XL and was called the Atari 1201XL and the 1450XLD was the 1250XL, so if this is true, the the 1400XL truly is the sister project of the 1200XL and came from the 1200XL's original design spec of having a PBI bus header and looks like Atari dropped the idea of the dual DB15 connectors (the connectors had a VERY cool feature which was the extra two lines were used as a Power-on latch to signal to attached peripherals to automatically turn on and off when the computer was powered up instead the user having to turn it all on by themselves, it was a nice idea.

 

Well, I found a company over in Redwood City that can still handle working with padmaster films to produce circuit boards, its twice the normal setup price, but in the end it will be worth it.

 

As a side note, I have all of the films for RPB, which was Atari's original ST prototype, and I would like to have boards reproduced for that system as well, right now I have #4 prototype of the Atari ST, but I would really like the very first version for exhibitings at shows and events as its a MONSTER of a system :-)

 

 

Curt

 

 

 

Curt

 

Great find.  Could you elaborate on the significance of this?

1018941[/snapback]

Edited February 15, 2006 by Curt Vendel

[Curt Vendel]

Okay, I just added some details and photo's up on Atari Museum:

 

 

http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/1200xl/1200.html

 

 

Now, some other interesting things, I have noticed that the dates of the X8A rev and the X10A rev both fall within days of one another in July of 1982. Yet the two revisions are COMPLETELY different from one another and there so far appears to be no X9A rev, so that means that there must have been side by side Sister-Projects going on with the Sweet-16 line of computers, a more flexible and expandable system and then closed box unit that made it into retailers unfortunately.

 

Rev X8A is where the design (so far) appears to have ended with the PBI connection and Dual DB15 connectors.

 

I have posted very detailed photo's of the schematics and the board layout films with a nice close up you can click on to really see the detail and compare with the production 1200XL's.

 

 

 

Curt

[Gunstar]

This is truly incredible. As a matter of fact I have often wondered about the XL peripheral numbering and why it wasn't either a 12xx or 14xx OR even 8xxXL. I hadn't ever heard about a 1000 series until now, though I had read about the "sweet 16" project that turned into the 1200XL. What would be a dream come true, if possible, is to eventually get enough of these PCB's printed up, and re-enginear what was originally planned, eventually providing "kits" for collectors to buy and build, either all parts come with it, or if the 1200XL MB is scrapped in place of the 1000 and some components used from the 1200XL, as well as the case&keyboard. Is this even a remote possibility? Or at least projects that could be incorporated into the 1200XL to make it essentially a 1000 series?

Edited February 15, 2006 by Gunstar

[danwinslow]

Yep, as I said, I'd be willing to put some money towards it if it seemed like it might happen.

Edited February 15, 2006 by danwinslow

[Curt Vendel]

Right now, I'd like to get like 10 made for study by several people interested and I would like to have them ready prior to VCF East 3.0 so I can put one out on Display along with a backdrop of documents for my Museum display at the show.

 

 

 

Curt

 

This is truly incredible. As a matter of fact I have often wondered about the XL peripheral numbering and why it wasn't either a 12xx or 14xx OR even 8xxXL. I hadn't ever heard about a 1000 series until now, though I had read about the "sweet 16" project that turned into the 1200XL. What would be a dream come true, if possible, is to eventually get enough of these PCB's printed up, and re-enginear what was originally planned, eventually providing "kits" for collectors to buy and build, either  all parts come with it, or if the 1200XL MB is scrapped in place of the 1000 and some components used from the 1200XL, as well as the case&keyboard. Is this even a remote possibility? Or at least projects that could be incorporated into the 1200XL to make it essentially a 1000 series?

1019009[/snapback]

[Gunstar]

Yep, as I said, I'd be willing to put some money towards it if it seemed like it might happen.

1019013[/snapback]

So would I. Curt, how about starting up a 1000 series fund/endowment type of thing and ask for contributers to such a thing, and those contributors would have firts dibs so to speak, knowing, of course, that the initial run and study is the main emphasis, with no expectations of a return. With other finances for the final product taken into account. Of course if someone donates more than the end product is worth, that could be taken into consideration.

Edited February 15, 2006 by Gunstar

[Almost Rice]

Yep, as I said, I'd be willing to put some money towards it if it seemed like it might happen.

1019013[/snapback]

 

Me too.

 

I did not realize that the 1200xl was the result of bean counters neutering the machine. I was always saddened that the Atari 8bits were closed machine while the Apple 2s were open.

[Curt Vendel]

Well, I'll tell you what, I would like to find a group of perhaps 5-6 people who would help to document in detail component placement onto the boards and getting a working set of proto's made, we'd all collaborate on the progress, create a detail parts listing/BOM, and be able to publish it up with the photo's of the board, make a very small run and allow people to hand assemble their own of these. It could make for a fun project....

 

In the meantime, the reason this whole stumbling onto a new find had occured was partly because of this:

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

 

Yep, as I said, I'd be willing to put some money towards it if it seemed like it might happen.

1019013[/snapback]

 

Me too.

 

I did not realize that the 1200xl was the result of bean counters neutering the machine. I was always saddened that the Atari 8bits were closed machine while the Apple 2s were open.

1019022[/snapback]

[MEtalGuy66]

Yeah thats a kewl Idea, and a really neat historical find.

 

And you could easily have the boards made by a variety of companies. And relatively cheap too.

 

BUT....

 

Better hope they werent using any custom logic other than the chips that are

available today, or you're gonna be SK-REWED...

 

Or at best, have an "approximation" of what it might have actually been, functionally.

 

Just something to think about when reviewing those photos and schematics.

 

Not to be a "party crasher" either, I totally share you guys' enthusiasm in the possibility of a chance at "resurrecting a dinosaur"..

[classics]

I would love to lay hands on one of these. Hell, I would just love to see the photo of a real PCB in hand.

 

Steve

[Gunstar]

Well, I'll tell you what, I would like to find a group of perhaps 5-6 people who would help to document in detail component placement onto the boards and getting a working set of proto's made, we'd all collaborate on the progress, create a detail parts listing/BOM, and be able to publish it up with the photo's of the board, make a very small run and allow people to hand assemble their own of these.  It could make for a fun project....

 

In the meantime, the reason this whole stumbling onto a new find had occured was partly because of this:

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

 

Yep, as I said, I'd be willing to put some money towards it if it seemed like it might happen.

1019013[/snapback]

 

Me too.

 

I did not realize that the 1200xl was the result of bean counters neutering the machine. I was always saddened that the Atari 8bits were closed machine while the Apple 2s were open.

1019022[/snapback]

1019027[/snapback]

True, true...the 1400XL stuff is also important, and I wouldn't mind finding out the differences between the 1200 and 1400 as well as the 1000. Maybe upgrade a 1200 to a 1400 also, or a combination of the best of all three.

[Curt Vendel]

The basic differences in the 1200/1400 are:

 

Cosmetically - the side panels on the systems are different, the 1200XL had 45 degree positioned joysticks, the 1400XL was flat. The 1400XL had a different LED layout.

 

Electronics - The 1400XL had a PBI connector, the Freddie and MMU (1200XL had the earlier HAL MMU) built in 835/1030 compatible Modem, built in Voltrax SC01 Voice Synthesiser. Different Power Supply Input.

 

Basic was built in and the later slightly (but not much) more compatible XL OS with Device Handler ROM was built in as well.

 

I have to review some schematics from the X7A rev of the Sweet-16 to see about Basic or anything else that the earlier REV's may have had that was left out or changed... This will be a very interesting fact-finding mission which I'm enjoying as I've always loved the 1200XL, even though it was a commercial failure, it was a gorgeous machine. As a side note, at the same time Atari was also working on an internal project called "Collette" which was a cost-reduced version of

"Colleen" the Atari 800, essentially it was a step towards what the 1200XL would be which was to take the 7 boards that comprised the 800 and turn them in a single board. Collette was a 2 board computer with an all in 1 motherboard with the CPU, OS and RAM on it and the Power Board. When the 1200XL was submitted for FCC testing a Collette was also submitted at the same time, it would've been nice if the 800 line could've been maintained longer, that big tank was one nice machine :-)

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

Well, I'll tell you what, I would like to find a group of perhaps 5-6 people who would help to document in detail component placement onto the boards and getting a working set of proto's made, we'd all collaborate on the progress, create a detail parts listing/BOM, and be able to publish it up with the photo's of the board, make a very small run and allow people to hand assemble their own of these.  It could make for a fun project....

 

In the meantime, the reason this whole stumbling onto a new find had occured was partly because of this:

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

 

Yep, as I said, I'd be willing to put some money towards it if it seemed like it might happen.

1019013[/snapback]

 

Me too.

 

I did not realize that the 1200xl was the result of bean counters neutering the machine. I was always saddened that the Atari 8bits were closed machine while the Apple 2s were open.

1019022[/snapback]

1019027[/snapback]

True, true...the 1400XL stuff is also important, and I wouldn't mind finding out the differences between the 1200 and 1400 as well as the 1000. Maybe upgrade a 1200 to a 1400 also, or a combination of the best of all three.

1019154[/snapback]

[Shawn Jefferson]

That is so cool. I'd definitely be interested if eventually there were bare boards made available and a parts list for people to try to build their own.

 

Sort of what I'm attempting to do with the 1450. I've got a board (that I bought from Curt actually) and have gone through the schematics (available from Best Electronics) and identified all the parts. I ordered most of the custom chips I need minus one PAL chip. I wonder now which one I am missing now... I looked at the Product Assy (1450XLD) document that you posted here some time ago and I definitely have the C060609 chip, but I also have a C061918 that looks like a PAL as well, although I can't find it in the parts list. My fuzzy memory wants me to say that I have the PAL 'A' and PAL 'B' chips, and am missing the PAL 'C' chip.

 

Anyone with a 1450XL fully populated motherboard that can help me out with identifying the chip I am missing?

 

Here's the work I've done so far... not much I agree, but it's a start!

[PacMan]

Curt,

 

Count me in for any assistance you need.

 

/P

[Tempest]

That is so cool.  I'd definitely be interested if eventually there were bare boards made available and a parts list for people to try to build their own.

 

Sort of what I'm attempting to do with the 1450.  I've got a board (that I bought from Curt actually) and have gone through the schematics (available from Best Electronics) and identified all the parts.  I ordered most of the custom chips I need minus one PAL chip.  I wonder now which one I am missing now... I looked at the Product Assy (1450XLD) document that you posted here some time ago and I definitely have the C060609 chip, but I also have a C061918 that looks like a PAL as well, although I can't find it in the parts list.  My fuzzy memory wants me to say that I have the PAL 'A' and PAL 'B' chips, and am missing the PAL 'C' chip.

 

Anyone with a 1450XL fully populated motherboard that can help me out with identifying the chip I am missing?

 

Here's the work I've done so far... not much I agree, but it's a start!

1019208[/snapback]

 

I've also been meaning to do this, but I've been so busy it has been pushed to the bottom of the pile. ATM the board makes a dandy paper weight.

 

Tempest

[Gunstar]

The basic differences in the 1200/1400 are:

 

Cosmetically - the side panels on the systems are different, the 1200XL had 45 degree positioned joysticks, the 1400XL was flat.    The 1400XL had a different LED layout.

 

Electronics - The 1400XL had a PBI connector, the Freddie and MMU (1200XL had the earlier HAL MMU) built in 835/1030 compatible Modem, built in Voltrax SC01 Voice Synthesiser.    Different Power Supply Input.

 

Basic was built in and the later slightly (but not much) more compatible XL OS with Device Handler ROM was built in as well.

 

I have to review some schematics from the X7A rev of the Sweet-16 to see about Basic or anything else that the earlier REV's may have had that was left out or changed...     This will be a very interesting fact-finding mission which I'm enjoying as I've always loved the 1200XL, even though it was a commercial failure, it was a gorgeous machine.     As a side note, at the same time Atari was also working on an internal project called "Collette" which was a cost-reduced version of

"Colleen" the Atari 800, essentially it was a step towards what the 1200XL would be which was to take the 7 boards that comprised the 800 and turn them in a single board.   Collette was a 2 board computer with an all in 1 motherboard with the CPU, OS and RAM on it and the Power Board.     When the 1200XL was submitted for FCC testing a Collette was also submitted at the same time, it would've been nice if the 800 line could've been maintained longer, that big tank was one nice machine :-)

 

 

 

Curt

 

 

 

very interesting. Ok, well the built in modem is kind of pointless for use today, especially 300 baud ones, so that's no big deal, but the Freddy chip and newer MMU are interesting. Of course the PBI connector is also interesting, but I know there is already a 1200xl upgrade for that. The problem is that anything that uses the PBI (Blackbox. Multi I/O) are rare and expensive, and with the advent of internal and external MyIDE's I've sort of lost interest in it, though if that huge XL expansion module for PC cards (I forget it's designation off hand) were also made available as some sort of kit, that would restore my interest in the PBI. As for the 1200XL's looks, I totally agree; that's why I chose my 1200XL over an 800XL. Though I know it's a matter of personal preference, I never liked the cartridge port on top of the computer like the 600/800XL and XEGS. It may be convenient, but I always disliked it's cosmetic appearance and much prefer the 1200XL's side port. It's a great compromise between the top mounted ones of the other XL's and the harder-to-access XE rear ports. I also love the angle the 1200's controller ports are at and the overall look and size of the machine. It's also perfect for upgrading becuase of all the extra room in the case and extra room to mount stuff on the rear panel.

Edited February 16, 2006 by Gunstar

[Curt Vendel]

I never liked the cart slot on the top of the XL's, just made we envision drink and food going into the systems, plus having the cart sticking up in front of you made the system look toyish...

 

The XE's rear slot was certainly no better of an improvement, I always loved the 1200XL's left side slot for the cart, it was a superb design idea, the whole 45 degree angled ports was visually nice, but not really necessary.

 

Just moving all of the connections to the rear of the system was a great convenience, what REALLY would've been nice is if the 1200XL top had been a little deeper and Atari could've made it so the 1050's could have sat ontop of the 1200XL, I always liked the Apple DuoDisk drives, that was a great design.

 

 

Curt

[+Allan]

I never liked the cart slot on the top of the XL's, just made we envision drink and food going into the systems, plus having the cart sticking up in front of you made the system look toyish...

 

The XE's rear slot was certainly no better of an improvement, I always loved the 1200XL's left side slot for the cart, it was a superb design idea, the whole 45 degree angled ports was visually nice, but not really necessary.

 

Just moving all of the connections to the rear of the system was a great convenience, what REALLY would've been nice is if the 1200XL top had been a little deeper and Atari could've made it so the 1050's could have sat ontop of the 1200XL, I always liked the Apple DuoDisk drives, that was a great design.

 

 

Curt

1019357[/snapback]

 

Of course what would have been great too is if they threw in some card slots like the AppleIIs as well.

 

Allan

[mos6507]

Of course what would have been great too is if they threw in some card slots like the AppleIIs as well.

 

The PBI slot enabled this via an external card cage that they never released. It was the way to go because it didn't force everyone to pay for slots up front.

 

The larger issue with all the machines after the 400/800 is that they really didn't provide any additional core functionality over the original machines. They just changed the form-factor and added more RAM. If they really wanted to progress then they would have had ANTIC+ or GTIA+ chips that supported more graphics modes, more sprites, faster CPUs, 65816, etc... This was out of the question since Jay Miner's team left. So what passed for engineering was really just glorified repackaging.

[Albert]

Though I know it's a matter of personal preference, I never liked the cartridge port on top of the computer like the 600/800XL and XEGS. It may be convenient, but I always disliked it's cosmetic appearance and much prefer the 1200XL's side port. It's a great compromise between the top mounted ones of the other XL's and the harder-to-access XE rear ports.

1019317[/snapback]

I ran a BBS on an Atari 800XL for several years, and the cartridge port was a problem for me as I had THREE cartridges stuck into it: SpartaDOS X, an R-Time 8, and a Rev. C BASIC cartridge. I had to be very careful not to come into contact with this tower of carts, or the machine would inevitably lock up. When the 130XE came out (which already had Rev. C BASIC built-in and the cartridge port in the rear), I don't think I was able to switch to it as the PBI is shared with the cartridge port and I was using a 1MB MIO board for various and sundry purposes (such as an interface to the two MFM 20MB hard drives plugged into the system).

 

..Al