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#26 Brian R. OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:55 PM

jbanes was totally right on this. Summed it up beautifully.

I mean, how many companies do you actually know of that would actually do this?

I don't think it's about "defending" this company, just accepting reality and the facts.

Me, I bought one of their Ms Pac sticks and love it. Never had a problem.

#27 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:15 PM

I mean, how many companies do you actually know of that would actually do this?


Very few. That is part of the problem.

Companies only have to cater to the expectations of the average consumer. They're happy it is you guys.

Me, I bought one of their Ms Pac sticks and love it. Never had a problem.


I have two. I tear out the guts and turn them into 7800 sticks, so they can be something worthwhile.

Edited by Paranoid, Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:16 PM.


#28 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:51 PM

Your complaining about a wore out product and how you never buy anything by them, and your preaching against us for not being 100% behind you and even defending them?

I don't regret buying my gamekey Ms. Pac-Man or the Atari paddle, they're quality products and I got my moneys worth. The Atari 10 game joystick sucked, but it was a gift so I didn't feel cheated.

Buy one of their products new in working order that has recieved decent reviews (Such as the Super Pac-Man TV Games unit that was recently released), and check it out and then you can come complain about the company.

Edited by Atariboy, Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:53 PM.


#29 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:42 PM

AHA! We're ONTO something here! Jakks FANBOYS!

Wow... that seems wrong just SAYING it.

Anyhow... I did buy their Ms. Pac Man stick, the first edition. It sucked. I bought the Wireless stick, 2nd edition, it sucked less, but it still sucked. In both cases, thoughtless design and cut rate engineering are the reasons WHY they suck... in general, reviews of Jakks products seem to support my conclusion. I turned the Ms. Pac Man stick into a 7800 stick, and now, it doesn't suck. The only problem with the Ms. Pac Man stick is their crappy logic board, inside the stick. From eBay I got a 2nd edition wired Ms. Pac Man stick. It sucks LESS than the first edition, but it still sucks. I've also got a Spongebob stick that I bought for my 5 year old daughter. That is really the only suitable use for their games. Gifts for very young children. A cheap notebook with MAME and a Competition Pro USB joystick is a far better solution than wasting a dime on any Jakks PnP TV Game.

Edited by Paranoid, Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:44 PM.


#30 jbanes OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:07 PM

AHA! We're ONTO something here! Jakks FANBOYS!

:roll:

Dude, there are not even words to describe how pathetic you sound right now.

#31 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:44 PM

Listen... the popular definition around this place of a Fanboy is a person who will defend a product or company without reasonable foundation.

Calling ANY of the crap that Jakks puts out "Good" or "worth the money", is clearly blind support. There demographic absolutely is NOT the sophisticated retro-gamer.

They're a crap company that puts out toys thinly disguised as video games, and you guys think it is worth the $20-$40 per title they charge.

Sounds like Fanboydom, to me.

#32 jbanes OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:23 PM

Calling ANY of the crap that Jakks puts out "Good" or "worth the money", is clearly blind support. There demographic absolutely is NOT the sophisticated retro-gamer.

:roll:



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Just keep digging. :thumbsup:

#33 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:43 PM

Anyhow... I did buy their Ms. Pac Man stick, the first edition. It sucked. I bought the Wireless stick, 2nd edition, it sucked less, but it still sucked. In both cases, thoughtless design and cut rate engineering are the reasons WHY they suck... in general, reviews of Jakks products seem to support my conclusion. I turned the Ms. Pac Man stick into a 7800 stick, and now, it doesn't suck. The only problem with the Ms. Pac Man stick is their crappy logic board, inside the stick. From eBay I got a 2nd edition wired Ms. Pac Man stick. It sucks LESS than the first edition, but it still sucks. I've also got a Spongebob stick that I bought for my 5 year old daughter. That is really the only suitable use for their games. Gifts for very young children. A cheap notebook with MAME and a Competition Pro USB joystick is a far better solution than wasting a dime on any Jakks PnP TV Game.

1. If you don't like their products, you should stop buying them. It's not difficult. You bought four of their products already, but you can stop anytime.
2. These are toys. They're sold in toy stores. Their target audeince is people who play with toys. Yes, those are children. No one ever said that they were museum quality replicas. I don't know what you're expecting, but if you're honestly comparing a Jakks toy with a laptop running MAME, you're not going to be satisfied with the cheap solution. Also, it's worth noting that the old arcade games that are being replicated in these toys were also aimed at children, some of whom are grown up now.
3. What do you hope to gain through your rants? That you'll stop some people on this board from buying Jakks products?

#34 jaybird3rd OFFLINE  

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Posted Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:21 PM

Listen... the popular definition around this place of a Fanboy is a person who will defend a product or company without reasonable foundation.

Calling ANY of the crap that Jakks puts out "Good" or "worth the money", is clearly blind support. There demographic absolutely is NOT the sophisticated retro-gamer.

They're a crap company that puts out toys thinly disguised as video games, and you guys think it is worth the $20-$40 per title they charge.

Sounds like Fanboydom, to me.

Keep in mind that you're talking about an out-of-warranty product that probably cost only $15 to $20 new to begin with. Considering that it's a pretty small problem at that, I honestly think your reaction is a little ... asymmetrical. A class-action suit or some other major response to this incident would only be realistic if Jakks is refusing to provide a legitimate level of service that their competitors do, but none of them provide replacement parts on request and hardly anyone expects them to. You can argue that this is a bigger or deeper problem, but that's a seperate issue and there's no reason to pick on Jakks over it.

Having said all that ... I've been very critical of many of Jakks' products in the past, but I'm not quite as eager to throw them under the bus as you seem to be; I reserve that privilege for real crapslingers like "Basic Fun". In my case it certainly isn't "fanboyism," but rather an attempt to consider the big picture and to look on the bright side. Jakks' Atari 13-in-1 Paddle was a great product and well worth the money. Digital Eclipse deserves most of the credit for that (I think they're the only Jakks developer who actually used the original game code), but it does prove that Jakks' products haven't ALL been crap.

Second, even though the rest of their stuff hasn't been what most of us would want, to some extent they've done a real service by popularizing the whole TV-game genre (wasn't their Atari 10-in-1 joystick the first?) and opening up the market. That's clearly benefitted those of us who are classic gaming enthusiasts, even those who have never bought anything from Jakks, because it's made possible (even if in an indirect way) a number of better things that we've all enjoyed.

One of those is the Flashback 2, which arguably wouldn't have been as big a success if it wasn't for the built-in audience of TV-game enthusiasts who were ready to move on to something better than the Jakks offerings. Another was the Radica Space Invaders 5-in-1, which is a great source for low-cost arcade-like controls (and fills a tremendous need for better controls on the Atari 7800 in particular).

I'm sure Jakks has also sold enough TV games to drive down the cost of those stupid Asian NOAC chips enormously, and that's had any number of positive ramifications. The Blue Sky Rangers have had their biggest success ever with their inexpensive NOAC-based Intellivision TV-games, and have put those profits into more authentic Intellivision offerings that they couldn't have afforded to make otherwise. It's also made the Generation NEX possible (a flawed implementation, to be sure, but a great idea in principle that wouldn't have been possible without inexpensive NOACs). It's also put a lot of cheap game hardware into the hands of creative hackers, which has encouraged some interesting experimentation; just look at the great stuff Ben Heckendorn has come up with.

#35 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:20 AM

Well... let me kind of elaborate...

A class action suit was something that I just threw out there. It wasn't the meat of my argument. As Christian has advised me, let's just let that go.

And, Flojomo... yes, I'd like to see more people adopt an attitude that Jakks products are not worth purchasing NEW, in general... and that will segue into my response to Jay.

I can see your perspective that these early, cheap, trials from Jakks have given a proof-of-concept to the rest of the industry that MAY eventually establish that quality products will be well received. But this becomes an issue of justification and "do the ends justify the means".

The Intellivision PnP is maybe the BEST example of this, as it is so often cited as allowing BETTER products to be built. The FB-1 is also often refered to in this manner. But the justification seems to be... "So, if we had to rip off 10,xxx consumers with garbage to be able to raise the funds to build a BETTER product, it was a small sacrifice to make so that the better product could see the light of day".

"Sure, our pacemaker actually KILLED everyone we put it into... but we reinvested all of that money and now we've made a pacemaker that REALLY works". I know... quite a stretch on that analogy... but you can certainly see what I'm getting at.

Someone, somewhere, is going to realize that there is tremendous money to be made offering quality products that cater to retro gamers at reasonable prices. It is inevitable. You *can* see a trend growing that way. Mame type cabinets (Like Curt's new business)... this is an industry in it's infancy, and there are lots of opportunities. I don't think you necessarily have to rip off the consumer to get to that point. I think that is Jakks method of operation (with a few minor anomolies here and there, e.g. the Paddle Games).

Honestly... my opinion is that Jakks TV games are living numbered days (and that they may already realize this, as they move out of this business and into PET toys)... and I don't think my opinion one way or the other will have any impact on that. They've saturated the market as far as they intend to go with it... more or less. We're seeing more and more accessibility of high quality solutions from medium and large vendors to address this market, and many of these companies are proving to have successful models that actually respect their customers. Jakks COULD have pioneered this, and probably been even more successful had they done so. Instead, I think they also did a disservice to this community by making other companies regard these things as toys, curiousities, cheap throw away items... which is still a challenge that a lot of visionaries in this community try to overcome in corporate boardrooms as a regular part of their jobs.

But your points *are* well taken, Jay. Every cloud does have its silver lining, and perhaps your perspective is more correct than mine. I can acknowledge that your argument makes strong points, at the very least, even if I am not certain I agree completely with them.

#36 onmode-ky OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:23 AM

10 years isn't long. They're a pretty new company, on the relative scale.

And my warranty wasn't void, it was expired. I wasn't asking for warranty support, I was asking for product support, and I expected to pay for the part (although I would have pleasantly surprised and held a completely different attitude about Jakks if they had provided the kind of support that Thrustmaster has, for example).

I understand that there are a lot of consumers doing a lot of dumb things to their products. I don't see how that issue is relevent. I don't see how warranty issues are relevent.


I was not talking about voiding your warranty. You had written in the e-mail to Jakks that it was "absolutely" past the 90-day warranty already. What I was referring to was where you had said, "I'd love to show [to the public at large] how EASY it is to unscrew the joystick, pop out the carbon dot, and replace it, on video." This would be video instruction on how to void one's warranty and ask for a replacement part. My comment was fully relevant to that portion of your post.

As for the age of the company, I didn't mean to imply that they were as old as IBM, but at 10 years, they're certainly not newcomers to the toy industry with a patently unsustainable business model.

Lastly, I take offense at your implication that my (and others') enjoying some of Jakks' products amounts to "fanboyism," "without reasonable foundation," and "blind support." How is it without reasonable foundation to base my opinion on Jakks on my personal experience with several of their products and their customer support? Isn't that the foundation of your own opinion on the company? On what else should I be basing my opinion? On someone else's calls for a class-action lawsuit over a carbon dot?

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#37 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:14 AM

I was not talking about voiding your warranty. You had written in the e-mail to Jakks that it was "absolutely" past the 90-day warranty already. What I was referring to was where you had said, "I'd love to show [to the public at large] how EASY it is to unscrew the joystick, pop out the carbon dot, and replace it, on video." This would be video instruction on how to void one's warranty and ask for a replacement part. My comment was fully relevant to that portion of your post.


Ok, so your last post clearly shows that you didn't actually understand what I was trying to get across in my FIRST post. It could be my writing, so I'll elaborate for you.

The video idea wasn't intended as some sort of "instructional" how to. More of an expose. "So, you undo these 4 screws, you pop open the stick, you lift out this little yellow piece of rubber, and you replace it... OR, you throw the stick away". For example, in a news story detailing showing just how simple the fixes are for items that become disposable. This was, like the class action thing... just a "what-if" pie-in-the-sky thing. "Wouldn't it be cool to see a segment on some sort of news report that..." I suppose it WOULD still amount to an "instruction video" on how to void your warranty... but, if you NEED an instruction video to insert a phillps screwdriver and turn it... you know... I think it would be hard to suggest that I was showing any secret trade information in such a video.

Does that make more sense?

As for the age of the company, I didn't mean to imply that they were as old as IBM, but at 10 years, they're certainly not newcomers to the toy industry with a patently unsustainable business model.


I disagree. How long has Mattel been around? How about Hasbro? Milton Bradely? 10 years in business is an UPSTART in the toy industry. There were probably a hundred new toy companies between 1970 and today that lasted 10 years or more and are gone today.

Lastly, I take offense at your implication that my (and others') enjoying some of Jakks' products amounts to "fanboyism," "without reasonable foundation," and "blind support." How is it without reasonable foundation to base my opinion on Jakks on my personal experience with several of their products and their customer support? Isn't that the foundation of your own opinion on the company? On what else should I be basing my opinion? On someone else's calls for a class-action lawsuit over a carbon dot?


Yeah, the Fanboy-ism argument is *always* clearly falacious around here. It is a matter of opinion in most cases. But there is clearly a passionate level of support here for Jakks products that illustrates that most consumers are not only willing, but complacent in accepting less than quality products. I think we can clearly illustrate that most sophisticated gamers (those who build DIY projects and demand high authenticity in their retro-game experiences), generally have a certain level of contempt for Jakks products, through reviews and just general public opinion. The people who support Jakks products unquestioningly, that, in my opinion, approaches the level of "Fanboy-ism" by NovaXpress's definition. Either you're uninformed, or you're willfully ignoring the faults of Jakks products.

#38 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:38 AM

I don't see why we're fanboys, some of their products are of good quality. Your judging it by some of their worst efforts, there is nothing wrong with us enjoying the Atari, gamekey Ms. Pac-Man, the Super Pac-Man controller, etc. We're not accepting the faults or being uninformed, the truth is they've built several nice TV Games units. Its your own fault for buying some of their products that got less than stellar reviews at AtariAge and many other sites.

" disagree. How long has Mattel been around? How about Hasbro? Milton Bradely? 10 years in business is an UPSTART in the toy industry."

So what, its still a decade. That is a extremely long time in todays corporate world. And I got a feeling a lot of those companies are like Atari today, existing in name only as parts of other corporations. What you said is like calling Electronic Arts a newcomer to the industry because a company like Namco has been around for over 50 years.

"Someone, somewhere, is going to realize that there is tremendous money to be made offering quality products that cater to retro gamers at reasonable prices."

Where is the Flashback 3 then? By most accounts, its predacessor was the best of these devices to date. Somehow I doubt Atari just gave up all that tremendous money if it really existed. And I don't see MAME cabinets ever being built in large quantities. They're expensive and cater to a small niche that can afford and is willing to buy one.

"But there is clearly a passionate level of support here for Jakks products that illustrates that most consumers are not only willing, but complacent in accepting less than quality products."

Perhaps, but I'm not one of them. Some of their products have been well done, the same reason I refuse to say Atari has only produced junk the past few years. Things like Atari Anthology, or the gamekey Ms. Pac-man, have been pretty well done.

" The people who support Jakks products unquestioningly, that, in my opinion, approaches the level of "Fanboy-ism" by NovaXpress's definition. Either you're uninformed, or you're willfully ignoring the faults of Jakks products."

You look like someone that just doesn't like to be disagreed with. We hardly do what you stated, in my case I think if you do a forum search, you'll find a lot of complaints by me for the Atari 10-1 joystick for example.

#39 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:34 PM

I don't see why we're fanboys, some of their products are of good quality. Your judging it by some of their worst efforts, there is nothing wrong with us enjoying the Atari, gamekey Ms. Pac-Man, the Super Pac-Man controller, etc. We're not accepting the faults or being uninformed, the truth is they've built several nice TV Games units. Its your own fault for buying some of their products that got less than stellar reviews at AtariAge and many other sites.


Personally, I think their Ms. Pac-Man joystick is a disappointment, and I've seen a number of reviews with the same complaints I have, and noticing the same minor improvements. I can't comment on their other products, as the Ms. Pac Man sticks disappointed me so much I've refused to purchase new any of their other products.

So what, its still a decade. That is a extremely long time in todays corporate world. And I got a feeling a lot of those companies are like Atari today, existing in name only as parts of other corporations. What you said is like calling Electronic Arts a newcomer to the industry because a company like Namco has been around for over 50 years.


By any measure outside of that of a small business, 10 years is a blink of an eye in relation to a corporation. By your logic, EA *is* a fairly young company, although their as a foundation icon in their industry who have established a clear dominance, it kind of skews the issue a bit. Jakks simply isn't. EA and Activision are founding-father companies in a new industry. Jakks isn't. I don't think your comparissons are sound.

By most accounts, the FB3 is not a DEAD project, it is simply delayed because of other issues that the company is facing. This is just unfortunate, and fate certainly plays a part in these matters. Regarding Mame *cabinets*, the limiting factor in MOST cases is space. Something will come along, I have faith, that finds a balance. As a matter of fact, more and more things *are* coming along. And it doesn't have to be industry grade. It can be consumer grade, but successful, if done RIGHT.

I don't mind being disagreed with, and, I'll be the first to admit when the other guy has points that are compelling. But, your arguments so far have failed to convince me for the large part. Jay's arguments have been the best presented and most compelling so far. I can at least walk away from his post understanding the reasonable logic by which he comes to his conclusions.

#40 Flojomojo OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:55 PM

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#41 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:10 PM

There are at least three different Ms. Pac-Man joysticks. How can you fairly judge the latest one by the earlier ones? Glad I don't share your logic.

" By your logic, EA *is* a fairly young company, although their as a foundation icon in their industry who have established a clear dominance, it kind of skews the issue a bit. Jakks simply isn't. EA and Activision are founding-father companies in a new industry. Jakks isn't. I don't think your comparissons are sound. "

That's nonsense. I don't know what "although their as a foundation icon in their industry who have established a clear dominance" is intended to mean since it isn't very clear, but I never claimed Electronic Arts was a young company. I'm applying your "reasonable logic" that explains why Jakks Pacific is a fly by night operation to a different example, in which a company such as EA, which doesn't have the decades of experience that a firm such as Namco has, is a relative newcomer to a industry. Also explain how that skews the issue at all in a comparison, especially since the plug & play market could be thought of as new.

"By most accounts, the FB3 is not a DEAD project, it is simply delayed because of other issues that the company is facing."

Unless your talking about it being released as a project from an individual (Curt Vendel), it sure sounds dead as far as Atari is concerned. I'd like to hear where it was ever stated that the project was simply delayed, I doubt I missed that news. As far as the public is aware of at AtariAge, the deadline came and went with no further word from Atari.

"But, your arguments so far have failed to convince me for the large part."

I never went into it to persuade you to think differently, I've read your previous post and knew that couldn't be accomplished since I'm not the best as writing. I came in here to explain to you how foolish your initial post was. That simply isn't how things are conducted. However, I think you came in here set with an opinion, and everyone else was automatically wrong if they didn't agree.

"By any measure outside of that of a small business, 10 years is a blink of an eye in relation to a corporation."

Perhaps fifty years ago, but not in todays world. 10 years is an eternity in todays corporate world outside of a few select industries such as the pharmaceuticals sector.

Edited by Atariboy, Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:56 PM.


#42 onmode-ky OFFLINE  

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Posted Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:37 PM

There are three points I want to make:

1. Paranoid, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say in my post about "video instruction." It was not my intention to say that you were making a "how to" video; I meant "video instruction" in the sense of "video depiction," because you would be illustrating, in this expose, the voiding of one's warranty. Regardless of whether yours is past warranty expiration, the event in the video would be automatic disposal of the warranty. This has nothing to do with trade secrets; the video would show its audience a willful act ending manufacturer support, followed by a request for manufacturer support. My point was not that you would be publishing previously unknown knowledge ("how to open your TV Game") but rather that you would be showing an act which defeats its own purpose: nullifying support toward the ends of gaining support. It would not be an expose because all it would expose would be that support does indeed end when you violate the terms of the warranty.

2. It seems you disagree that being 10 years old disqualifies Jakks Pacific from being a "fly-by-night" company. What about the fact that they are the #3 largest toy manufacturer in the nation (after Hasbro and Mattel, of course)? Also note that they achieved that rank in less than 10 years.

3. The #2 point leads into this third one. My comment above probably qualified me, to your eyes, as a "passionate supporter" of Jakks Pacific. This is not the case. In fact, I would say that *no one* here is a passionate supporter of the company, *no one* here supports Jakks products unquestioningly. All that I have read in this thread arguing against you have simply been people who feel that you are unfairly maligning a company which we don't think is quite as bad as you insist. It is only because you are so vehemently opposed to the company that it looks like we, who would generally fall into the "indifferent" category in terms of support for Jakks, are standing up for it. For example, why did I look up Jakks' ranking among American toy companies? Because I thought I should see if Jakks really was on the verge of collapse as you had implied. Why did I look up how long they'd been around? Because I had heard of them before and didn't think they were an upstart "fly-by-night" company as you had said. I didn't do these things because I love the company; I did them because I questioned what you had written. Your view of the company is so absolutely negative that others are responding and reacting nearly out of disbelief. What's my own opinion of the company? I like some of their products. I dislike some of their other products. I think their customer support line really needs improvement. I think the company's major risk right now is not alienation of the consumer but rather that lawsuit claiming bribery (which would result in a real class-action suit). And that's about it.

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#43 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:23 AM

You know, back in the day, when I was a C=64 Warez d00d... I always felt that the Atari camp seemed to attract the most abrasive, annoying individuals in the modem/BBS community. Some things never change.

There are at least three different Ms. Pac-Man joysticks. How can you fairly judge the latest one by the earlier ones? Glad I don't share your logic.


Read my original posts. I bought the first one new, it was crap. I bought the Wireless one, it was BETTER crap. I gutted the first one and made a 7800 stick out of it, and now it is decent. I replaced that one with one I bought on eBay, the second edition wired version. It is the best crap of the lot. I take it on camping trips with me, and we play it in the RV on the portable DVD LCD player once we're good and drunk and can't tell if the false inputs are because w're drunk, or because the stick sucks. I really enjoy going over the same basic topic with users of this board several times trying to get them to understand that their arguments are fallacious.


That's nonsense. I don't know what "although their as a foundation icon in their industry who have established a clear dominance" is intended to mean since it isn't very clear, but I never claimed Electronic Arts was a young company. I'm applying your "reasonable logic" that explains why Jakks Pacific is a fly by night operation to a different example, in which a company such as EA, which doesn't have the decades of experience that a firm such as Namco has, is a relative newcomer to a industry. Also explain how that skews the issue at all in a comparison, especially since the plug & play market could be thought of as new.


My fault, I didn't proof closely enough and this sentance is hard to decipher. I meant "they're a foundation icon in their industry". If the video game industry has a "bellweather", it is EA. It isn't an apt comparisson, EA to Namco is not as Jakks is to Mattel. Now, EA could certainly, through mis-steps, find itself in a position similar to Atari. But EA in fact has a proven record of adaption through changing business climates and models, while remaining loyal to their core competency, showing a continious ability to grow their brand, across two decades and several generations of gaming "eras". Your analogy is further complicated by the fact that you compare EA, a software vendor, to Namco, a highly diversified electronics entertainment corporation primarily enganged in coin-op gaming. Why not compare EA to IBM, being that they both make software that runs on PCs? As far as toys are concerned, Mattel may very well be threatened by upstarts. The adaptations that the Barbie line continues to go through in response to Disney and Bratz offerings shows that even an established giant cannot rest on its laurels content that the upstarts (MCA, I believe) will fail. New companies may be innovative, less risk-adverse, and otherwise have advantages that shake up the status quo in an industry. But very rarely will an upstart be able to actually upset a an industry leader or establish itself as one itself. I'll come back to this in a moment.

Unless your talking about it being released as a project from an individual (Curt Vendel), it sure sounds dead as far as Atari is concerned. I'd like to hear where it was ever stated that the project was simply delayed, I doubt I missed that news. As far as the public is aware of at AtariAge, the deadline came and went with no further word from Atari.


I imagine that things got a little bit loose there for awhile, a little uncertain there for awhile. At all points, I think it is safe to assume that NDAs would prevent most key players from giving us all of the facts. Atari wouldn't have taken the expense to ship the remaining 60,000 rev. C FB2s if they thought they were going to lose money on them. Clearly, Atari has seen that this can be a profitable business. I would offer that the FB3 isn't very likely to be DEAD, but is more likely not a priority. Which seems reasonable enough. There have been several surprises during this Atari shake-up, and I believe there will be more before the dust settles.

I never went into it to persuade you to think differently, I've read your previous post and knew that couldn't be accomplished since I'm not the best as writing. I came in here to explain to you how foolish your initial post was. That simply isn't how things are conducted. However, I think you came in here set with an opinion, and everyone else was automatically wrong if they didn't agree.


You dodn't think you could accomplish persuading me to change my mind, but thought you WOULD accomplish persuading me that I am a fool? I'm having a hard time drawing a distinction between the two goals. Oh, I'm a fool, but I refuse to change my mind about the foolish things I'm saying. *sarcastic grin* I'm not trying to light your fuse here, but honestly, consider what you've said here.

Perhaps fifty years ago, but not in todays world. 10 years is an eternity in todays corporate world outside of a few select industries such as the pharmaceuticals sector.


No, business models have NOT been revolutionized like we were being told they had in the 90s. Business is *still* business, and it still follows the same cycles and same principles it has for probably the last century, more or less. This is some left-over utopian New Business optimisim from the pre dot.com bubble bursting. There may have been some shifting, some settling, some even shocking develoments... and there may be some more ahead of us. But Ford, Chevy and GM are still the domestic Big 3... AT&T and MCI are still telecom giants, Intel and Microsoft are still doing what they do. I'm not saying these are STATIC things, I'm saying that, barring completely revolutionary developments or catastrophic events, things will generally remain largely the same. Nissan might get ahead on Toyota, and MAYBE Hyundai or Kia will grow to a place where they're comparable to Honda, Toyota and Nissan. OR... maybe Hyundai or Kia will become the next Yugo. And the same holds true for Jakks, in this kind of analogy. They're unproven, just like Kia and Hyundai, and they're certainly not a sure thing yet (and neither is Kia or Hyundai... let's use SUZUKI automobiles as an example. One good Samuria could do in either Kia or Hyundai at this point).

1. Paranoid, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say in my post about "video instruction." It was not my intention to say that you were making a "how to" video; I meant "video instruction" in the sense of "video depiction," because you would be illustrating, in this expose, the voiding of one's warranty. Regardless of whether yours is past warranty expiration, the event in the video would be automatic disposal of the warranty. This has nothing to do with trade secrets; the video would show its audience a willful act ending manufacturer support, followed by a request for manufacturer support. My point was not that you would be publishing previously unknown knowledge ("how to open your TV Game") but rather that you would be showing an act which defeats its own purpose: nullifying support toward the ends of gaining support. It would not be an expose because all it would expose would be that support does indeed end when you violate the terms of the warranty.


Ok... a couple of counter-points. Again, not a Meat-of-My-Argument point. Just a little diversion. A daydream. But... first thing that comes to mind is a "disclaimer". Warning, opening your Jakks joystick as depicted in the following segment within 90 days of the warranty period will void your warranty... good enough... but... you're also missing the point, the goal, of such a piece. It would be to demonstrate that these items were going into the garbage for want of a very simple, very inexpensive, very easy to replace part. It wouldn't be an attempt to gain support, it would be an attempt to OUT just how insane it is to throw away an item like this over such a simple repair. It speaks VOLUMES about the nature of our disposable society. Taco Bell plastic cups are one thing... This is entirely another.

2. It seems you disagree that being 10 years old disqualifies Jakks Pacific from being a "fly-by-night" company. What about the fact that they are the #3 largest toy manufacturer in the nation (after Hasbro and Mattel, of course)? Also note that they achieved that rank in less than 10 years.


Ok... this is what I meant when I said "I'll get back to this later", above. I'm reminded of a sign in the Bay Area during the dot.com bubble. Tiawan, #3 in Semiconductor Manufacturing! My fellow IT workers and I always got a kick out of this as we car-pooled into work. It was a clever spin on, "Of any nation with any significant manufacturing process in semiconductors, Tiawan is effectively dead-last". The group of us had worked at MCI (#2 in Global telecommunications at that time), and we learned important things about just WHY a company or corporation ISN'T #1 during our time there. We could have warned you that bad things were in MCI's future even at that time, which was shortly after the WorldCom merger, and not one of us was shocked when the scandals finally broke out. There are two points to this... first off, Hasbro and Mattel are probably the uncontested LEADERS in the toy market, and the gulf between 1 and 2 is probably pretty large, and the gulf between that and 3 may be enormous. What looks impressive when you rank it 1, 2 and 3 may not be when you really look at the figures. Second off, when you look at Hasbro and Mattel, my guess is that a number of subsidiaries that you think of as "independent toymakers" are under the umbrella of one or the other. Every pay attention to how many things you eat are actually made by Kraft or some of the other food conglomorates? Travel worldwide and it becomes even more amazing. Who was #3 in the 80s, in the 70s, 60s and 50s... before Jakks arrived... and where are they now? I think if you look, what you'll find, is that #3 actually isn't a GREAT place to be, unless Mattel or Hasbro decides to eat you up, opening up the way for a NEW #3 to appear on the market. What is Sprint doing these days, by the way? Anyhow... I think you'll find that #3 has been occupied by a variety of trend-toy makers who had that decade's hot thing/trend in relatively cheap toys (both in price and quality), but didn't have much else, and that once you know... hula-hoops or roller skates or whatever had their time in the sun, those companies often floundered into bankruptcy or were bought by one of the big 2 during their peak. I'm betting Jakks is going to be Door # 1, in this example.

3. The #2 point leads into this third one. My comment above probably qualified me, to your eyes, as a "passionate supporter" of Jakks Pacific. This is not the case. In fact, I would say that *no one* here is a passionate supporter of the company, *no one* here supports Jakks products unquestioningly. All that I have read in this thread arguing against you have simply been people who feel that you are unfairly maligning a company which we don't think is quite as bad as you insist. It is only because you are so vehemently opposed to the company that it looks like we, who would generally fall into the "indifferent" category in terms of support for Jakks, are standing up for it. For example, why did I look up Jakks' ranking among American toy companies? Because I thought I should see if Jakks really was on the verge of collapse as you had implied. Why did I look up how long they'd been around? Because I had heard of them before and didn't think they were an upstart "fly-by-night" company as you had said. I didn't do these things because I love the company; I did them because I questioned what you had written. Your view of the company is so absolutely negative that others are responding and reacting nearly out of disbelief. What's my own opinion of the company? I like some of their products. I dislike some of their other products. I think their customer support line really needs improvement. I think the company's major risk right now is not alienation of the consumer but rather that lawsuit claiming bribery (which would result in a real class-action suit). And that's about it.


Nothing of the sort. You don't seem to be a passionate supporter in this post. Your arguments are politely presented, and seem well supported, if potentially suspect. I'd say that the figures you've researched so far do not illustrate the company fully. Their lack of diversification and their reliance on low to mid-grade products with a emphasis on turning a quick buck. I wouldn't be surprised if Jakks is a company INTENDED to have a short lifespan... to harvest the winner while it can, then be parted out, liquidated, written off as a loss, by wealthy investors who will simply change to some other "fly-by-night" marketing scheme. Jakks has far more in common with the TV Only offers you'll see on Nickelodian (that are inevitably available at your local KB, as well), than it does with the products produced by Mattel or Hasbro, for example. Or with the Imperial brand toys you'll find in Supermarkets, convienience stores and Rite-Aides, for that matter. (Although honestly, Imperial has found it's niche and has an established track record of dominating THAT niche, something that I think it is far too premature to claim for Jakks).

I think disagreement and rebuttal is important. I clearly haven't established my case clearly enough, and there have been several posters who have disputed me, I've listened to their disputes, and posted my rebuttals, and I think my responses have been sound and compelling and reasonable. When we're discussing things rationally in this process, we're making progress... when I'm getting the kind of closed minded garbage responses (such as gif animations showing a guy digging his own hole)... well... if you're not willing to listen and entertain what I have to say, it seems fair for me to assume you ARE a "fanboy".

#44 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:47 PM

Its not worth the few minutes it took to type it, but simply because the Flashback 2 delivers a profit to Atari isn't enough reason to maintain the product line. Corporations want the maximum return possible, everyday things are divested from companies even through they were profitable. Its quite possible that Atari feels that there are better ways to spend their capital, so saying that the product is likely just delayed is wishful thinking at this point (Though I hope it turns out correct). Use that mini Atari joystick for one such example, Atari took the technology they've already purchased through the Flashback 1 and went to the cheapest place they could to get it developed, instead of using Curt Vendel's design that was of high quality. Somehow I doubt that bodes well for the continuation of the Flashback 3 project.

Your typing a whole lot of stuff that is purely your opinion, or not really related to the subject at hand. If you really want to convince people that you're correct, cut out the fluff and stop trying to find some analogy that supposedly makes your opniion correct, both sides could do the same thing all day with different examples.

Edited by Atariboy, Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:49 PM.


#45 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:10 PM

Use that mini Atari joystick for one such example, Atari took the technology they've already purchased through the Flashback 1 and went to the cheapest place they could to get it developed, instead of using Curt Vendel's design that was of high quality.


...

...

...

Huh?!?

Anyhow...

I would imagine Atari/Infogrames is pretty interested in ANYTHING that is turning ANY profit, at this point. Unless they've LOST money on the FB2, I'm willing to bet they are very interested in a FB3.

"We're losing money hand over fist, and this item is making money... but not a whole BOATLOAD of it... let's refocus on the stuff that we're losing our tails on and ignore products that are turning a profit".

I suppose it is possible. Stranger things happen when you get a bunch of MBAs running the show... but... it sounds unlikely.

#46 Atariboy OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:53 PM

The answer to your huh can be found in this thread.

http://www.atariage....showtopic=92582

Sounds like Atari is just taking whats already paid for and trying to make a cheap buck out of it. Honestly, does the state Atari is in currently make you that optimistic about a Flashback 3 done in such a way as we'd all like? The company is in trouble, makes sense that they're trying to refocus their efforts doesn't it?

As for the Ms. Pac-Man gamekey version, I put a hour or so again into it today to make sure I'm not crazy. RallyX seems to control funny on the gamekey, every other game controls just fine as far as the joystick is concerned (Got to the 2nd intermission in Ms. Pac-Man without losing a life, made every turn I wanted it to before calling it quits), biggest complaints are the alternate fire button used for gear switching in Pole Position and bombs in Xevious, which is placed in a spot that makes it hard to hit. And the sound of the voices in Pole Position sounds a little muffled. Not bad for the $10 I paid for it, makes me wish I had the 2nd gamekey with Pac-Man on it.

Edited by Atariboy, Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:56 PM.


#47 jpfalcon2003 OFFLINE  

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Posted Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:55 PM

I got the jakks joystick with super Pac-Man and Pac-man plus. Was pleased with my purchase. just wish Baby Pac-Man would have been on it too.lol

#48 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:18 AM

As for the Ms. Pac-Man gamekey version, I put a hour or so again into it today to make sure I'm not crazy. RallyX seems to control funny on the gamekey, every other game controls just fine as far as the joystick is concerned (Got to the 2nd intermission in Ms. Pac-Man without losing a life, made every turn I wanted it to before calling it quits), biggest complaints are the alternate fire button used for gear switching in Pole Position and bombs in Xevious, which is placed in a spot that makes it hard to hit. And the sound of the voices in Pole Position sounds a little muffled. Not bad for the $10 I paid for it, makes me wish I had the 2nd gamekey with Pac-Man on it.


Interesting. RallyX has been one of the only consistently enjoyable games on their Ms. Pac Man lineup. Xevious always sucks (and not because of button placement, but without reliable diagonals, you simply cannot score high at that game). Mappy is usually pleasant. In any case, I don't have a Gamekey version. It is one that I've avoided, and will continue to do so, with my present experiences with Jakks products. Sorry... If it takes them 3 revisions at $20-$40 a pop to get it right, that is too much, in my book.

As far as the keychain stick... I'm not seeing the connection there. It sounds like they had it in the production pipeline and had screwed Curt on it already, most likely before their current trouble. And, as Curt pointed out, it is a 3rd party licensed product, not an actual Infogrames/Atari product. Personally, from a business sense, it makes sense to have the products that seem cheap and designed simple to capitalize on a TREND associated with other companies... and the quality products associated with Atari. What better way to maximize your investment than to re-release the Atari NOAC FB1 titles on a micro-mini (yet lame) format, to be greeted by universal disappointment, and then to follow THAT up with a FB3. Really, look at how positive the retro-reviews were of the FB2 after the FB1 and the Jakks titles. It is easy to look like the hot chick when you hang out with the fat, dumpy chicks.

I dunno.. I could be wrong... I don't think any of us know the whole story, and I don't think Curt can really come out and tell us the whole truth at this point.

#49 Dreamwriter OFFLINE  

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Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:09 AM

One thing you have to realize is the quality of the Jakks games isn't completely Jakks' fault. The quality of the build, yes, but the actual game programming is not done by Jakks at all. It's just like the regular console gaming industry, you don't blame Sony for King's Field being a crap game. Sure, Jakks has part of the fault, from their choice of developers and the budget they pay. And the problem with the MsPacMan system is its joystick goes in 8 directions - something that MsPacMan can't handle. If you press diagonally, that press could not register or may register in the wrong direction. I've been building my own little desktop arcade machine using real arcade parts, and I can tell you, even if you have the highest quality arcade stick available, if it isn't limited to 4 directions, it's gonna be crap for any PacMan game (or Donkey Kong, Mr. Do!, Frogger, etc.) Unfortunately, the Ms.PacMan stick also has games on it that want diagonals, so they had to try and make those *and* the 4-directional games work well.

Anyways, back to the original point of all this, Jakks comes up with a general design and has a company in China figure out the specifics. As in, Jakks will tell them "OK we need an analogue stick here, 3 buttons here, here, and here, and an IR receiver on the back." Jakks would probably get a price list of the parts, but they won't know where to get any specific part, or what part would be needed, or how to install it. And as they only order their parts as preassembled items in bulk, they wouldn't have any way just to order a single piece, and that piece would probably cost a TON more than it would cost as part of the whole unit. Heck, I took apart my StarWars unit, and discovered it was not designed to even be taken apart, ever - the case was glued shut in multiple places, with two screws hidden behind the rubber handles that were glued on. Chances are, when they get Warranty returns, they dump em, or maybe send some back to China to find out what went wrong so it doesn't happen again in future revisions.

My point is, Jakks just isn't setup to fulfill your request.

Oh, and as for Flashback 3, I would say it's dead since Curt wasn't done with it yet, and has now moved on to a new company...

Edited by Dreamwriter, Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:10 AM.


#50 Paranoid OFFLINE  

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Posted Wed Sep 6, 2006 9:09 AM

http://www.atariage....s...t&p=1133095

And I'd say that just because I take extreme positions, doesn't mean that I'm *wrong*.

Usually, I just know a lot more than the people who disagree with me.




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