spiffyone

True. But then again Punch Out NES was a good game in and of itself. In comparison to the arcade original it may be lacking, but taken on its own it's a good game that is fondly remembered by many (will the same be said about Ms. Spears in a number of years? Considering she's not looked back fondly right now, I'd say no).

As Golden Axe Warrior is basically Sega's version of Nintendo's Legend of Zelda, I would propose that an Atari "version" of those games (you'll get why the quotation marks in a second) be Adventure III (as Adventure II was already indie released for Atari 5200). After all, Golden Axe Warrior and Legend of Zelda are both basically upgraded versions of Atari's own Adventure, which was the original action/adventure game in the video game industry (both GAW and LoZ being action/adventures as well). Here's Adventure II for those that haven't seen it yet: "Simply" (yes, I know it's not simple at all) replace the dot character with an actual animated sprite, complete with sword swinging action, add some common enemy characters in the overworld and, boom: Instant 7800 Adventure (or in this case, Adventure III). Maybe the duck-billed dragons could be boss fights in this new version. I proposed that very game when I proposed a version of Wonder Boy/Adventure Island starring Bentley Bear, who I believed should've been Atari's mascot. Bob is coming through with the latter with the anticipated release of Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest, so maybe someone will pick up this idea and run with it. Also on my wishlist: 1. An Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar (NES version) style RPG, but one with a first person turn based battle system ala the Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest games. By Ultima IV NES style I mean a WRPG with JRPG graphical style. More freedom allowed than a typical JRPG. In Ultima IV you could basically battle anyone you wanted to just by initiating the encounter as well as steal items and have it count against the morality choices. NES style because I prefer the style of the sprites in that version over the computer versions. Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest first person battles because I prefer that sort of simplified battle system to Ultima IV's more strategic overhead placement battle system, and it would show off the ol' 7800's ability to have massively sized sprites on screen for boss battles. Here's Ultima IV NES version for those that haven't seen it: 2. NES had Castlevania; SMS had Master of Darkness, which was basically Sega's version of Castlevania. NES and SMS both had Ninja Gaiden games. I propose hitting two birds with one stone: a mash up of Ninja Gaiden and Castlevania. Totally '80s, you play as a ninja going against monsters (vampires, werewolves, demons, those goddamn bats that plague your existence in both Castlevania and Ninja Gaiden) in Dracula's (or, better yet, Satan's) castle. Yeah. Totally. *air guitar. You get the agility of a ninja (so no more marrying a goddamn jump like you do in Castlevania) with the enemy design of Castlevania. Level design would be a mash up of both (stairs ala Castlevania; ladders on walls and wall jumps ala Ninja Gaiden). 3. A Space Harrier type rail shooter. From my (very limited) understanding, 7800 could handle that type of pseudo 3D better than the other consoles with display list manipulation (call me out if I'm way wrong here, btw). Might be a great game to show off the 7800's prowess. Plus I just dig rail shooters, specifically Space Harrier. Maybe someone could hack, say, Motor Psycho to make this one?

Food Fight - only home conversion of the cult arcade game, and programmed by the designers of the console hardware. Ninja Golf - off the wall original 7800 title that shows off the hardware pretty well and became something of an internet sensation as far as obscure games go. Pole Position II - this one is easy: it was the pack in game for the bundled units. Good or bad, it "defines" 7800 as much as Super Mario Bros./Duck Hunt and Alex Kidd in Miracle World does for many NES and SMS owners, respectively.

In case I haven't already stated it: Sign me up for a non-XM version. Thanks Bob. And, once again, thanks for the thanks in the title screen. Warms my heart every time I see it.

What's the status of the project? Haven't seen anything in a while. If carts are ready to be ordered, I'd like to be put on the list.

Adventure III The original Adventure was the first action/adventure game, and Legend of Zelda (LoZ) was obviously inspired by that VCS/2600 classic. There's an Adventure II for 5200 (sadly I've never played it as I don't have a 5200). It looks like what a 5200 sequel to the Atari 2600 classic would've been had it been released during the 5200's time on store shelves: familiar, but very much updated in both graphics and gameplay. It only makes sense then that there'd be an Adventure III for 7800, and that it too would feel like an update from Adventure II on 5200. That would "fit" the basic idea of imagining what form updates to Atari IP would take during the 7800 years, which was the foundation that sprung BB:Crystal Quest, particularly if it too borrows from Zelda's additions to the genre in much the same way Zelda borrowed from the original 2600 Adventure. We'd then have a unique take on Wonder Boy/Adventure Island in the form of BB: Crystal Quest and Legend of Zelda/Golden Axe Warrior in the form of Adventure III. Going along this line of thinking, a unique, Atari branded "take" on a Castlevania-style game "fits" just as well. Similar gameplay, but Atari branded, just like Sega did with Master of Darkness on SMS, so not an exact clone in any way. Use the Haunted House branding, perhaps. I know that HH was also an action/adventure (first real "survival horror", btw), but exploration/item hunting/door unlocking can be added as well. After all, the MSX version of Castlevania, Vampire Killer, had that sort of gameplay.

Been a while since I've been on the forums, but I'm so happy to see the project still alive and progressing as well as it has. I tried the latest demo out last night, and it has really come together in ways that I only imagined when I first floated the idea a year ago. Stellar work, Bob. F'n stellar. One quibble though: Why are the buttons swapped around in the latest release? Was that something users wanted? It seems strange to me to have the attack button not be the primary (first) button, as that's the way it was with games of this sort on NES (everything from Adventure Island to the Super Mario games to Mega Man had jump on button 2/A and attack on button 1/B). SMS was a different story, with it not being a "set rule" (Alex Kidd in Miracle World had attack on button 1, jump on button 2; Wonder Boy had it reversed). I'm playing it on MESS using a USB joypad, and pulling off basic jumps over rocks is more difficult than it ought to be, even more than pulling off the more difficult jumps in the earliest demos where you had the buttons set up so the first was attack and the second was jump. I gather that when this is released in cart form, this will still be an issue for me as I'll be playing using the 7800's EU joypad. Thinking about it, I can see the way you have it currently set up being better for those unfortunate souls who have to deal with the stock 7800 joystick (why, oh why, couldn't we have gotten the joypad in the States?), but...c'mon, man. Perhaps a settings menu would be a solution. More work for you, and I'm sorry for that (you've done such amazing work on this already), but my right thumb implores you. Oh, and to your question on music: Again, more work for you (sorry), but I'd rather have some music. As another poster alluded, good game music is the cherry on top, especially for a platformer. Even the games that inspired Crystal Quest (Wonder Boy and Adventure Island) both have really memorable tunes that instantly pop in my head when I think of my favorite 8-bit platformers. The thing is, I really don't wish for you to be dealing with hand coding the music, so this is only if you can find a way to set up easier an easier work environment for Pokey music. Then you can go crazy with the FM chip on the XM for the sequel Wait...would adding Pokey music make this an XM only game, or an XM enhanced game (still playable on a stock 7800)? I'm still a bit unclear on that

My problem with Scrapyard Dog is that it could've been more than it was. I can't be the only one who played the game's second area and thought to myself that it would be really cool if some of those doors the player can knock on actually led to something (NPC conversations or even other areas). I really think Scrapyard Dog should've been the 7800's answer to side scrolling action/adventure games (or action/RPGs) like Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap, Castlevania II (which was a good idea hampered by sucky design decisions), and the like. Maybe that was part of the developer's intentions (those doors really do feel like an idea that was going to go somewhere) but they couldn't implement all they hoped due to budgetary issues (like, say, not getting the go-ahead to have a much larger ROM capacity).

Wow...really? That's awfully nice of you. Thanks. I haven't been able to play the more recent updates (my primary laptop wigged out on me a bit, and I'm using a netbook right now , but I am dipping my feet back into Linux distros with the most recent Ubuntu and Joli OS, which I am really enjoying so far , but, regardless, this little thing's Atom isn't going to be my go-to for games). From what I have played of the previous versions of the game, however, I liked what I experienced. That said, I do have to agree somewhat with the opinions pertaining to difficulty, but I am split as to whether it's a "bad" thing or a "good" thing (the difficulty being as high as it is, I mean). On the one hand, I like the fact that it's high because, hey, that's the Atari Way (it was all about getting as far as possible and high scores, after all), but on the other hand I wonder about accessibility being a sticking point for some players, and dampening the experience for them. I'm sure you've already had this internal debate with yourself, though. All in all, though, I really liked what I saw/played. When I proposed the idea, I was thinking of it being a somewhat modified Wonder Boy clone (ala NES' Adventure Island), but it reminds me of a mix of that game with a small bit of NES action games like, say, Ninja Gaiden (with the high amount of enemy encounters, more constant combat action, etc.). Speaking of which: Ninja Golf Gaiden. Get on it ASAP after this one. Think Ninja Gaiden, but with the Ninja Golf ninja, and instead of swinging his sword, he swings his golf club. It's gold I tell ya...GOLD!

I'm wondering whether I should rehash my arguments against SMW on this board, or whether some of you have read my arguments against it being "great" on other boards. Eh, I'll give a quick rundown: Good game, IMHO. I like it. Not a great game. Not a masterpiece. There are design issues, in terms of both level design but mainly in terms of how the cape's physics seem to go against design intent. SMB3 has issues, but they aren't as glaring.

I disagree with you, and I'm right. At least as far as Turbo/Hyper and Dash/Champion were concerned. Genesis had as many frames of animation, and a higher speed setting. Music was a toss up between all three versions (there were actually some stage themes that were best on TG16, imho, namely Chun-Li's, and some extra effects on Guile's theme). And by that virtue it wasn't better. At all. The graphics and music were better. Stage design was a bit overbearing. But that slowdown was goddamn atrocious. Made the game nearly unplayable, or at the very least made me not want to play the damned thing and go running back to GnG on Genesis. Super R-Type was kind of like that, and that one made me angry, tbqh. I love R-Type. I almost hate Super R-Type, at least played on actual SNES hardware. Yes, it was. Like with all consles, devs got around hardware limitations. It took some really tight code for Manifred Trenz to pump out a game like Rendering Ranger on SNES, and even then it's not all that great shakes (looks good, but there's a lot of reused assets and very same-y looking sprites in that game, which, iirc, was due to the SNES having less sprite size variation than Genesis). Probably not. Likely not. But then again if it had a 68k the entire board would've likely had to change. Some Genesis games suffered slowdown, but mainly when there was a lot of things going on at once, with all manner of sprite sizes or really CPU intensive routines that stressed the 68k. But it took a lot to stress that processor, at least compared to the SNES CPU. Let me put it to you this way: Rotation, scaling and stuff like Mode 7 and even polygons could be "faked"/done on Genesis using CPU intensive software routines. There are games on Genesis that use polygonal models that run entirely on CPU brute force, the type that would take the FX processor on SNES. No, I'm not alluding to Virtua Racer, as that used the SVP chip. I'm referring to games like Red Zone and Star Cruiser (a JP only release). Rotation/scaling and pseudo-mode 7? Check out the rocking tower in Bloodlines, the "scaling" used in Panorama Cotton (which also shows off how the greater variety of sprite sizes available to the Genesis video display processor, in addition to CPU grunt strength, can pull off scaling and rotation on a console that actually doesn't have in hardware support for that sort of thing), and the secret area in the indie release, Pier Solar.

This does bring up an interesting problem, actually. Then again, would Famicom have been released at all in the US/NA market? If ColecoVision and Atari 5200 had been given fuller life cycles, if The Crash had been avoided completely, would Nintendo have even entered the market? Remember, they did approach Atari with the rights to Famicom even after The Crash had occurred, so fearful were they of competing on Atari's turf (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em is apparently also an old Japanese saying ). Also, Famicom was released in July '83, but recalled and reissued later on. So, when was that? How long did it take to fix the manufacturing issues, hash out new marketing, consumer and retail relations, etc. That's a key question as well. And, of course, gens do have some overlap, and some models are discontinued early but still part of whatever gen they're introduced in (so even though Atari most likely would've discontinued 5200...perhaps, it still would've been of the same gen as ColecoVision, with 7800 being a next gen product). Eh...I like the list I agreed to earlier. Keeps everything nice and simple.

I'm resurrecting the thread because I really do think this needs to be hashed out. BTW, I go with the earlier statements by Retro Rogue, and the list supplied by BillyHW, with some changes (NEO GEO stays with TG16/Genesis/SNES as it was part of that gen, but 32x, although an add-on to Genesis would be itself part of the later gen. Everything else stays as he listed, with WiiU, 720, and PS4 making up the 8th/9th gen (depending on how one lists the Pong and Oddyssey 1 as either gen 0 or 1). It was created by people that think videogaming started in 1985. Actually, it wasn't. Look at the discussion page of the Wiki, and you'll see noted "Atari historians" overruling things left and right. I've had my disagreement with them, but those disagreements were labeled "original research", which is not applicable in an encyclopedia. I call it "common sense". Historically, Atari stated that 5200 was a "high end companion model" to 2600. That is, not a "replacement". Common sense, however, shows that had it taken off it very well might have been, but regardless it was the successor model and by being positioned as a "high end" model, Atari was, in fact, basically stating that it was a next gen product. Well, yes, of course. That right there's just common sense, isn't it? Now go argue that on the Wiki, and prepare to be shot down because they have "proof" which is not really proof at all that 5200 should be lumped in with 2600 in the same gen.; it's only proof of Atari's desire not to "replace" 2600 outright/discontinue it, which isn't abnormal because it's very much how the console industry has operated each gen since that time. Atari introduced 5200 to ensure that if consumers went for a next gen system, they'd go for Atari's next gen system. I think anyone can agree to that. So why then is 5200 and, by extension, ColecoVision (which was marketed as a "3rd wave"/"3rd generation" console, btw), and possibly Vectrex as well, lumped in with 2600 in the 2nd gen? Because Atari kept the 2600 alive? Because they used the terms "high end" and "companion model"? So what? "High end" simply denotes that they were going after a certain consumer (those who wanted to upgrade from 2600, or wanted something more substantial than 2600 could provide, i.e. next gen console consumers), and "companion" simply denotes that both products were to be on market at the same time, meaning Atari wasn't killing 2600, and would target it to those either uninterested in, or unwilling or unable to purchase into (due to higher costs) the next gen who were still interested in getting a game system. Guess what? That's no different than what happens EVERY gen, particularly with the best selling console of the previous gen. It's kept alive as a "low end" model targeted to budget conscious consumers. Proof? NES, SNES/Genesis, PS1, and PS2. All kept alive as "low end/budget models" long after the next gen products were introduced onto market. Nintendo kept NES alive until around '95 in the US and '03 in Japan, well after SNES was released. Hell, when SNES was released Nintendo made no real mention of "replacing" NES, if memory serves right. But common sense showed that that's exactly what it was as far as the early adopter, "core" gamer consumer market was concerned. It would "replace" their old NES consoles. But to newer, budget consumers it would be their most likely purchase, which is why Nintendo kept it on market for all that time. 5200, like SNES later, was Atari's salvo to keep that "core" group buying Atari products; that 2600 was still there as the "lower end" product simply meant that it served the same exact sort of strategic placement that NES did all through the '90s while SNES was shoring up more and more of a consumer base. Again, I argued it, as have others in this very topic. But that's "original research" NOTE: I don't hold ill will or disrespect toward the Atari historians. I just think they have this one issue completely wrong, but they seem very much against that idea.

Probably a RAM limitation in conjunction with possible bus contention related issues. But most likely a simple matter of RAM. A lot of the higher quality 2D fighting ports on Saturn needed an extra RAM cart to be as close to arcade perfect as possible.

Gotta disagree here. The 3DO version is, IMHO, overall better than the Jag version. Extra levels, really awesome music tracks and sound effects, and, IMHO, slightly better control. The 3DO version was developed in 10 weeks, apparently. Really bad, really rushed port. The Jag version, IMHO, is actually among my favorite versions. I actually prefer the fact that it doesn't have music, as it feels a bit more on the scary side. Matter of fact, when I played DOOM 3, I was struck by the thought midway through that "hey...this reminds me of JagDOOM". As an aside, I really think DOOM 3 is wrongly judged. No, it's not a guns blazing FPS, but, IMHO, it's a damned good "survival horror" action/adventure game.