ReactiveMicro.com

Hello ijor. Okay, cool. Thanks for confirming that for me. Assuming it is about half the size of the 6502, then it would take about 2 months of work to recreate the schematic for the die. That is assuming we can learn pretty quickly how to read silicon structures. Of everything out there, NMOS is about the easiest. The 'full' service where the do everything for you would run about $30k USD. I know of a place in the States that would do it though. About the same price too without the language barrier. Well we could ask if we get stumped with something, but he's pretty busy and probably won't be too interested in helping. I've asked for help in the past and recieved about the same response. Really it's all labor from what I've been told. If you know what you're looking at, which is pretty 'easy' I've also been told, then all you need it the time and patience. ***Note: If pics don't come up hit Refresh. Hotlink protection from this Host is a little rough. You may even be required to copy the URL in to a new Browser Window. Sorry about that. Well, I had this done: http://www.downloads.reactivemicro.com/Pub...ures/F11242.pdf I also had them take some pics of the fuse array up close: http://www.downloads.reactivemicro.com/Pub...1%20and%202.jpg Other pics of the array here: http://www.downloads.reactivemicro.com/Pub.../HAL%20Pictures Pics of what NMOS looks like: http://www.downloads.reactivemicro.com/Pub...%20fuse%201.jpg That little project was about $350-ish I believe. I'd have to check my records for the actual price though. It was under $400 I'm pretty sure. Anyway, the idea of that project was to recreate the HAL/PAL from the pics. I spent a lot of time trying to trace the pins back in to the array and never did complete it. About half way through the project I found an unsecure PAL that I was able to read. So it really didn't warrant the effort to continue. I did have a lot of fun though and learned quite a bit in the process. Ha! For some reason I get asked this a lot. MEFAS won't care what we do, or ask them to do. It's not illegal to look at any IC or even reverse engineer it. It is illegal to try and copy and sell it if there's a patent. Is doing what we're thinking of doing illegal? No, in short. We're not looking to compete with the owner of the IP. Also, any patent there may have been is well since expired. So how could they sue and show any possible damage? Are we planning on trying to corner the dead 2600 market? Now if we some how manage to sell thousands of units and start making millions, then we may get a letter. But even then they would have a very hard time in court. But in short, for a hobby project that is going to emulate the IC - then what damage is there for a 20+ year old dead IC? Now if we try to clone a Core 2 Duo then we're going to get a call. Firmware has an unlimited copyright, unlike hardware. So in that case there may be an issue, but I can't see anyone asking you to stop selling ROMs from a dead PC. Only Apple has done that, but only with the early Macs. All I can offer is the use of my Microscope and some of my time. I'd mainly help out so I could learn a little more about silicon structures. With a little luck you guys will be right there with me and we'll all learn a bit in the whole process. If you want to email MEFAS and ask for pricing then I'll post my contacts info. He'll ask you to send him an IC and then he'll price it for you. If all you want is a decap then it'll be under $100. I assume someone either has a loose IC or a desoldering gun? If not, I could also pull one for you as I have all that type of equipment too. I'd recommend sending a live IC though. The cool thing is when they decap it you can still plug it in and use it afterwards. I always wanted to see what an IC looked like that was damaged from static though. Oh well. Back to work... Henry ReactiveMicro.com

Hello everyone. I found this thread via a Google Alert. Hope you don't mine me butting in. Let me reach in my pocket and ante up my two cents... Correct. His name is Balazs Beregnyei in Hungary. His work you cited was from his College Theses about NMOS (I believe). I had been in touch with him quite a bit last year. That 'someone' is I. I worked with a friend of Balazs who knew English well and she helps us translate everything. Any questions we had we contacted Balazs to make sure the translation was correct. I have had a similar idea with a hobby project much like yours. Since I've done most of the research and work I'll share my thoughts and ideas to help save you guys a bit of time. Photographs would be essential to start with. I have a microscope that is used for this type of work and a digital camera attached to it. So pics are no problem. And yes, you will need to decap the IC to take pics of the die. But first I would have a question since I have no idea what IC you're actually dealing with. I assume it's some kind of custom ASIC? If not and it's some kind of PLD (HAL/PAL/GAL/CPLD/uC/etc) then there are services in China that I have used to recover JEDEC a file. It's not always cheap, but it's 99% effective. If it is an ASIC then let's continue. From what I've found it does look like an ASIC to me. Decapping would best be performed by a Company. I have used MEFAS.com in the past. It's like $75, and trust me - they do good work and if you really want to see what's on the die you REALLY need professional equipment to decap. The next issue is layers on an ASIC. I've found that more then three layers deep and you'll need to have at least the top layer removed so you can fully see the next and the one under that too. MEFAS.com does that as well, at about $350 per layer. Next issue would be to fully understand and be able to translate the silicon structures you find. I have yet to master this step. I do have a lot of resources though that will help, but have yet to read them all. If/when this time ever comes, I'd be more then willing to help so I too gain a bit of experience. I also like working with a group. What will really help is since there is that .PDF schematic, someone should be able to mostly verify what's found to the schematic and fill in some of the illegible parts. Of course the end result would be someone needs to build a macro version of what's found, connect it to the existing circuit, and verify what was found is correct. Yes, things like this would be very useful in helping you understand what's what. Of course if/when the time comes I'll post everything I have and we'll go form there. Thoughts/ideas? Henry ReactiveMicro.com