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Fix your RF


Nathan Strum

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By sheer coincidence, on Tuesday's episode of ZeroPage Homebew, James posted a poll asking if people used a video mod or stock RF to output video from their 2600s. Overwhelmingly, people answered RF. So the timing of this blog post is pretty good, since I've been working on this particular entry for well over a week.

 

RF tends to have a bad rap with the Atari 2600. It's the standard connection between your console and TV, and was designed for a time when the only input that TVs had was for an antenna (either a pair of terminal screws, or an F-type coaxial cable connector).

 

The reason RF gets a bad rap is twofold: 1) It's fuzzy 2) It's noisy.

 

Now, there's not much we can do about the fuzziness. The reason for that is because of how RF works.

 

The 2600 creates video as luminance (brightness) and chrominance (color) signals. It then takes those signals, and mushes them together into a single composite video signal, and then modulates that with the audio signal onto a radio wave that the TV tuners of the day would see as a channel and demodulate it back into video and audio. So because it's mushing the luma and chroma together, everything gets a bit soft and indistinct. That's just the way RF is. The signal is carrying a lot of stuff that has to be separated back out at the other end.


To get a sharper picture means modifying the 2600 so you're taking video and audio directly from the output of the TIA (Television Interface Adapter) chip, before they get to the RF modulator, and then outputting them directly using either a composite (luma and chroma merged) or S-Video (separate luma and chroma) signal, with audio sent separately. To go beyond S-Video requires a special mod that can transcode luma and chroma into either RGB (separate red, green and blue signals) or component video (which is... confusing ;) ). Both further separate the components of the video signal, maintaining the best possible color definition.

 

But modding a console has drawbacks. First, you have to have some ability to solder small electronics. There are no fully plug-and-play mods available. If you don't know how to solder, that means either learning, or finding someone else to do it for you. Second, you're altering your original console, which some people simply don't want to do. Either because of the risk of damaging it, or just because they want to keep it original (although mods can usually be removed).

 

So if you don't want to mod your console, but want the best RF picture you can get, then it's time to clean up the noise.

 

The noise happens because since the 2600 uses radio frequencies to transmit picture and sound, and that signal is susceptible to interference. This can come from just about anything: nearby lights, microwave ovens, hair dryers, fans, electrical cords, air conditioning, power supplies and other electronic devices, and it manifests itself as static on the screen. There's some metal shielding in the 2600 to help reduce this, but most of the noise comes from the connection between your console and the TV set. And this is what we can address.

 

The first thing to consider is where you plug your 2600's signal into your TV. If your TV has an F-type connector and a tuner that can still tune in the (now defunct) analog channels, you can just plug into that. But if you have a cheap TV with a poor tuner in it, that can negatively affect your picture. A bigger problem is if you're using a monitor that has no tuner, and only a composite input. Then you need an external tuner.

 

One option is to plug the 2600 into the F-type connector on an old VCR, tune it to channel 2 or 3, then plug the VCR into into your monitor. But the output you get depends on the quality of the built-in tuner and the video circuitry, and a lot of VCRs were, well, junk. Plus, they're bigger than they need to be, especially if you aren't playing VHS tapes in them anymore.

 

All you really need then is the tuner, or more to the point, an RF demodulator. And you want to get a good one, since that's the thing that's going to separate out that RF signal, and pipe the video and audio to your display. So let's start with that.

 

What I use is a dedicated Sony tuner (TU-1041U), that was designed for use with their professional video monitors in broadcast applications. Fortunately, with the death of analog broadcast TV, these things are all over eBay, and they're usually dirt-cheap. Right now, there are some available for less than $15. Some variants have mono audio only, which is fine since the 2600 is mono anyway, as are many older CRT monitors. I bought a stereo model, so the audio gets sent to both channels in my home theater system. (The audio is still mono, it's just coming out of both speakers.)

 

sony-tuner.jpg

 

The demodulator in this is excellent. For one thing, it wasn't a consumer piece of electronics. This was built by Sony for professional use. It was designed to take RF signals and demodulate them back into high quality composite video and audio. It doesn't play tapes, or record shows, or do anything else. It's significantly smaller than a VCR, and it looks cooler too. :cool: 

 

That said, it doesn't do S-Video. Sorry. If you really want S-Video, your best bet is installing a mod. If you want to get S-Video without a mod, you'll still need a demodulator and then a composite to S-Video converter. But unless you can find one on eBay, decent ones are almost $300. Even then, trying to convert composite to S-Video is like trying to un-mix chocolate milk. You could probably do it, but it's not going to be worth the effort or expense, and neither the milk nor the chocolate are going to come out of it very well.

 

So, with a good demodulator in hand, let's see about improving the noise problem.

 

For all of the examples below, I shot all of the pictures off of a Sony PVM-14M2U monitor, calibrated with a color bar generator (click on any picture for a large version).

 

svid-ntsc.jpg

 

If you're going to do any work on improving your 2600's picture, the first thing you need to do is calibrate your TV or monitor to color bars. This is simple enough to do with a DVD player and a calibration disc. The 2600 was developed according to NTSC video standards, and if you don't get your display correct first, then anything you do to the 2600 really isn't going to reflect what it should look like. (The same applies to PAL 2600's, but with more lines, and weirder colors. ;) )

 

All RF signals went into the TU-1014U tuner, then into the monitor's composite video input. The same four-switch 2600 was used for all RF tests. The S-video signals were from a different four-switch 2600, and the signal went straight into the S-Video input on the monitor.


First, let's look at how all 2600s were originally connected: the switchbox.

 

old-switchbox.jpg

 

This horrible little tin disaster connected to the antenna leads on the back of your TV, and allowed you to switch between your antenna and your 2600. For those with an F-type connector on their TV, you had to add one of these adapters, and attach the switchbox's screws to it:

 

coax-adapter-back.jpg

 

The other side would plug into the back of your TV (or cable box, if you were an early adopter):


coax-adapter-front.jpg


The problem with switchboxes, besides being susceptible to RF interference, was the switch contacts would get dirtier and dirtier, resulting in an increasingly noisy signal.

 

Here are three pictures from the exact same system. This is using the original Atari RF cable and a switchbox.

 

Here's how it looked, right after installing it for the first time in years:

 

switch-worst.jpg

 

That's Chopper Command, in case you were wondering. I should point out, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this 2600.

 

After giving the switch a good cleaning with contact cleaner, and working the switch back and forth a number of times, I could get a pretty clean signal:

 

switch-best.jpg

 

But the slightest bump of the switchbox, and I'd get this:

 

switch-bad.jpg

 

And these were the best pictures I could get with the switchbox. Clearly, the switchbox has to go.

 

The simplest replacement is an RCA to F-type adapter:

 

rf-rca-back.jpg


rf-rca-front.jpg

 

This bypasses everything inside the switchbox, and lets you plug the RF cable straight into your TV.

 

But what do you do if you still need a switchbox? Maybe your 2600 is still sharing an RF input with something else on your TV?

 

Well, get a switch that isn't noisy. A high isolation A/B switch is the way to go. I have one from the late, lamented Radio Shack. But there are others out there.

 

radio-shack-ab.jpg

 

An important thing to remember though - you're increasing the number of cables when using an A/B switch. You have to plug your 2600 into the switch, then run another cable from the switch to your TV. Each cable increases the potential for that noise we want to get rid of. The cables basically act as antennae, picking up whatever stray RF interference happens to be floating around.

 

So let's deal with the main cause of RF noise: the RF cable.

 

Atari's original cable is thin, long, and poorly shielded. It's basically a magnet for interference.

 

Here are three pictures using Atari's RF cable, without a switchbox:

 

rf-chopper.jpg


rf-pitfall.jpg


rf-si.jpg

 

Look familiar? A little grainy? (The camera captures static that you don't always see in person, because it's happening so fast. Try taking a picture of your own TV, and see what you get!)

 

Here's another look:

 

rfnoise-chopper.jpg


rfnoise-pitfall.jpg


rfnoise-si.jpg

 

See all of the extra noise? So what's the difference between those pictures and the previous set?

 

Well, nothing! It's still the same 2600, the same stock Atari RF cable, and the same monitor. In fact, each of the photos in the second set was taken within a few seconds of the ones in the first set.

 

The only difference is that for the second set, I've moved the RF cable about six inches closer to the 2600's power cord.


That brings up a very important tip: keep the power cord under control! I've found that I can reduce RF noise a lot, just by bundling the excess power cord together, wrapping a Velcro™ tie around it, and moving it until the picture noise diminishes.

 

power-cord-tied.jpg

 

A related tip is that if I bundle up the excess RF cable, it tends to pick up less interference. If you grab the bundled RF cable in your hand, you'll usually see the onscreen noise drop even more dramatically. At that point, your body is basically canceling out the interfering radio signals. (Or something like that.) But holding the cable in one hand isn't really conducive to playing videogames. Maybe you could have someone else hold the cable for you while you marathon your way to that Laser Blast patch.


rf-cable-tied.jpg

 

What we really need though, is an RF cable that's better shielded. When I test RF systems, I use a broadcast-grade video cable (the purple one in the photos) with excellent shielding. But having leftover broadcast cable sitting around isn't a practical solution for most people ;) . So I thought I'd look for an off-the-shelf solution.

 

First, I tried out a Cable Matters quad-shielded RF cable (this came in a three-pack, but you can find similar, single cables). This is decent quality but still affordable.

 

The shielding looks like this:

 

cm-shielding.jpg

 

Now, that looks like a lot of shielding, but look at the braided part. There are gaps in it. There are more gaps than braid.

 

You can look up the cable specs online, and find out more information about it.

 

cm-e233577.jpg

 

For this cable, it says that it has 95% coverage in total. Two braided shields, plus two foil.

 

It also says the cable is "swept to 3.0 GHz". So what does that mean? Well, it's a spec that says how high of a signal frequency the cable should be able to carry. The higher the spec, generally the higher quality the cable.

 

cm-3ghz.jpg

 

The Atari uses either VHF channel 2 or 3, which at 50-60 MHz is way, way below that. So this should be fine, right?

 

Let's take a look!

 

cm-chopper.jpg


cm-pitfall.jpg


cm-si.jpg

 

Now, those do look better than the stock RF cable. But let's move the cable back to where we had problems before:


cmnoise-chopper.jpg


cmnoise-pitfall.jpg


cmnoise-si.jpg

 

It's still picking up interference. Not as noticeable as before. But as a budget option, this would be fine, and it's definitely going to improve your RF picture.


But we can do better.

 

Remember that broadcast-grade cable I used? It's made by Clark Wire and Cable.

 

Here's the shielding it uses:

 

clark-shielding.jpg

 

This has two layers of braided shielding each rated at 98% coverage.

 

But again, I only have this because of a few leftover cables from work. To make new ones, you'd have to order the cable by the foot, buy some connectors, and stripping and crimping tools.

 

Can we get something similar, without having to go to the hassle and expense of making our own cables?

 

Well, this wouldn't be much of a blog post if we couldn't! (I'm sure not going to make the cables for you.)

 

Fortunately, you can pay someone else to make them, and order them from Amazon.

 

Blue Jeans Cable uses Belden 1694A, with really nice Canare connectors.

 

belden-1694a.jpg

 

The shielding isn't quite as robust as the Clark cable, but it it has a layer of foil shielding and a 95% coverage braided shield. So it's braided shield alone is effectively the same as all of the shielding in the Cable Matters cable.

 

belden-shielding.jpg

 

It's also rated for 6GHz. Effectively, this means the cable should be of higher quality than the Cable Matters one and be able to reject more interference.

 

belden-6ghz.jpg

 

Here are the three cables side-by-side. The original Atari cable on the left, the Cable Matters one in the middle, and the Blue Jeans one (using Belden cable) on the right.

 

cable-compare-3.jpg

 

Now, the Blue Jeans cable is expensive. No question about that. But the build quality is exceptional. Even though the cable is about the same diameter as the Cable Matters one, the Belden cable is less stiff (as a point of comparison, the Clark cable I have is so stiff that it's difficult to work with - it's really meant for permanent installations).

 

The Canare connectors on the Blue Jeans cable are actually a joy to use. Most F-type connectors are a pain to tighten or loosen because the part that turns is usually too small to grip comfortably. But the Canare is easy to grip and turns as smooth as butter.

 

So, it's a nice cable that doesn't skin my knuckles when I install it. But what does it look like?

 

belden-chopper.jpg


belden-pitfall.jpg


belden-si.jpg

 

Very clean! Every bit as good as the Clark cable.

 

But how does it do at rejecting interference?


beldenoise-chopper.jpg


beldenoise-pitfall.jpg


beldenoise-si.jpg

 

Well, it's still there. If you have bad RF interference, it's going to show up on your screen regardless of the cable. The goal here is to minimize the noise, and maximize the signal quality. A better cable does equal a better picture. There's less signal loss, and more shielding against interference. But there's always going to be an environmental component. Some of it you can control. Some of it you may not be able to. But you have to at least start with a good cable.

 

Now, replacing a stock RF cable in a 2600 requires opening it up. Fortunately, it's just a few screws to remove, and the RF cable is simply plugged in, either near or directly into a small metal box (the RF modulator).

 

old-cable-plugged-in.jpg

 

To install the new cable requires an adapter. A new RF cable will have an F-type screw-on connector. The Atari cable used an RCA plug.

 

The problem is, depending on the model, the space inside the 2600 can be very limited.

 

In this four-switch, the cable has to bend at a 90° just above where it plugs in, and then exit out the back of the console. There's no way that the new RF cable will fit there, especially with an adapter on it. It's too tall.

 

But as they say, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. Or something. So I came up with this:

 

rca-adapters.jpg

 

Two right-angle RCA adapters, and an F-type to RCA adapter. This setup adapts the F-type connector to RCA, and then routes it where it needs to go.

 

new-cable-plugged-in.jpg

 

Before reassembling the 2600, I'll use electrical tape to wrap all of the connectors together.

 

The final RCA adapter that plugs into the 2600 has to have its center post filed down (at right), or it bottoms out before fully making contact. Note the pin on the Atari connector to the left.

 

shortened-rca.jpg

 

To see if I can simplify this setup, I've ordered a right angle F-type to RCA adapter. But it hasn't gotten here yet. I'll post an update in the comments if it works.


Now, even with a really good cable, RF isn't going to be 100% noise-free. This is still RF and still susceptible to interference. But a high quality cable can make the picture more stable and much cleaner. This is the best RF can probably look on a 2600. It's certainly a lot better than the stock Atari RF cable.

 

And this will work on an Atari 7800, too. Or any console that used a weedy little RF cable to connect to a TV.

 

If you want a truly noiseless picture on your 2600, then you'll need to install a video mod (in this case, a CyberTech S-Video mod, in a four-switch 2600):


svid-chopper.jpg

svid-pitfall.jpg


svid-si.jpg

 

As a direct point of comparison, here's a color test binary using the Belden/Blue Jeans RF cable:

 

belden-colors.jpg

 

And the same, using S-Video:


svid-colors.jpg

 

If you can get RF working without noise though, you won't really mind not having S-Video. As long as you don't think about it too much. ;) 

 

Unfortunately, the CyberTech mod is no longer available. But at some point, I'll be installing an Ultimate Atari Video mod, and we'll see how that compares.

 

Update: I added an addendum in this blog entry showing a lighter, more flexible Blue Jeans cable and a simpler RF adapter setup.

 

Spoiler

And in case you're wondering - all of these photos were from John's two consoles, which are now fixed. :D But that's a blog entry for another time.

 

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Very informative. Thanks a lot.

 

I found that cables (over here in Germany) are usually sold with a shielding of e.g. 135 dB. How does that compare to the cables you suggest?

How about these Ferrite beads that people are suggesting (sometimes even on power cables)? Have you tested these too? Do they make any difference?

 

 

Cable.jpg

proxy-image.jpg

Edited by Thomas Jentzsch
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1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I found that cables (over here in Germany) are usually sold with a shielding of e.g. 135 dB. How does that compare to the cables you suggest?

I have no idea. :) The picture of the cable you posted looks like it has good coverage of the braided shielding, so it's probably at least a step up from the Cable Matters one (although it appears to be an illustration, so whether it's accurate or not is anyone's guess).

 

The likeliest reference for the dB rating I could find was on Belden's website in a glossary entry for Isolation, where it's used as a measurement of a component's ability to reject interference. But I don't know what the scale means relative to the U.S. specs.

 

You can tell something about a cable by its intended application. Consumer cables would be cheaper and have lesser shielding. Broadcast (or professional) cables would be more expensive and have better shielding. Terms like "Premium" don't mean much. Also, "Low Loss" isn't really a concern with short cable lengths. We're more concerned with rejecting interference.

 

After writing the blog post, I realized I could buy the Belden RF cables directly from Blue Jeans Cable, and custom-order any size. I can also get a different (more flexible) version of the cable from them. So I ordered one, and I'll see if it holds up as well as the heavier one. All things being equal, having a more manageable cable is preferable. Plus, I can get them in different colors! (I ordered black anyway.)

1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

How about these Ferrite beads that people are suggesting (sometimes even on power cables)? Have you tested these too? Do they make any difference?

I haven't tested them on RF cables, but I have used them before on VGA cables. However - those were specifically designed for those cables. The cables were sold without them installed (likely because the cables were custom made, not factory assembled), and you clipped on the ferrite beads afterwards. I would assume they'd be most effective if they were sized appropriately for the diameter of the cable. Wikipedia quotes a book on RF design that says "A design that uses a ferrite bead to improve noise filtering must take into account specific circuit characteristics and the frequency range to block." So just slapping on any old ferrite bead may not have the desired effect.

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50 minutes ago, Nathan Strum said:

The likeliest reference for the dB rating I could find was on Belden's website in a glossary entry for Isolation, where it's used as a measurement of a component's ability to reject interference. But I don't know what the scale means relative to the U.S. specs.

What are the US specs then? Only the percentage? No measured effectiveness?

I found the following link between the two:

Quote


Shield effectiveness is expressed in decibels or dB. For a single copper shield, the value is around 40 dB for 85% coverage and only climbs to 45 dB for 90% coverage. By using two copper shields, the value rises to around 60 dB. To go higher in effectiveness requires the use of high and low permeable irons.

Now I have to wonder how they achieve the claimed 135 dB.

 

One more question: Shouldn't the three adapters make the shielding worse?

Edited by Thomas Jentzsch
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Great write up, as always! I, too, found it very informative, especially about where to purchase good cables. Will have to check them out.

 

In response to Thomas, I've tried those ferrite beads and they provided no active benefit to my Atari's signal. Others around the forum have tried them and liked them, so it might be a case by case basis. With RF, I have had greater success switching out the cable, even if it's for another Atari cable (sometimes they just go bad).

 

For a fun experiment, try out Sheep It Up! on an RF system vs an s-video modded one. I don't know what tricks the programmer used, but the picture over RF shows more detail!

 

 

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Two right-angle RCA adaptors, and an F-type to RCA adaptor...

My non-tech self has been looking for that for years, Man, that's gonna help me resurrect several 2600's!!!

Never could figure out "where" to get an RCA cord with a teeny tiny plug to replace the original.

Thanks!!!

 

I'll probably look into it, but does anyone know straightaway if that Sony tuner will convert signal from a PAL 2600 to an NTSC TV?

(Prolly a noob question, but I really want to get my PAL 2600 working...).

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9 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

What are the US specs then? Only the percentage? No measured effectiveness?

The ratings for coax cable I've seen are about signal loss over distance: https://catalog.belden.com/index.cfm?event=pd&p=PF_1694A

 

I suppose the shielding effectiveness ties into that somehow. I'm not trying to write the definitive technical guide to coaxial cable - just make my 2600 look better. ;) 

 

You can find out a ton of cable specs here: https://info.belden.com/hubfs/resources/technical/catalogs/cabling-solutions-for-industrial-applications-catalog-technical-information-section.pdf

Quote

I found the following link between the two:

Now I have to wonder how they achieve the claimed 135 dB.

Could just be marketing jargon. Like contrast ratios for HDTVs, where manufacturers pretty-much just make up their own interpretation of it.

Quote

One more question: Shouldn't the three adapters make the shielding worse?

They didn't have any negative effect in my tests. Probably because they don't add any significant length to the signal path, and by being attached at the 2600 they were located away from the source of interference. If the 2600 itself was picking up interference, then maybe they would too, but at that point a cable without an adapter is going to pick it up anyway. Since the adapters are all solid metal, they act more as an extension of the 2600's RF jack than as a cable.

 

At any rate, the only other choices would be to: modify the 2600 to move the RF jack somewhere more accessible, or drill a hole in the case so the cable can come straight in without having to change directions.

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4 hours ago, McCallister said:

Great write up, as always! I, too, found it very informative, especially about where to purchase good cables. Will have to check them out.

Thanks! I'll be interested to see how the other Blue Jeans cable works.

 

The more I tested this though, the more I've found that where you run your cable makes the most difference. But the stock Atari cable is more susceptible to picking up interference in more places, and the interference is always worse.

Quote

For a fun experiment, try out Sheep It Up! on an RF system vs an s-video modded one. I don't know what tricks the programmer used, but the picture over RF shows more detail!

Dot crawl. Other games make use of it too. It think Kaboom! is one of them.

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1 hour ago, Rogerpoco said:

Two right-angle RCA adaptors, and an F-type to RCA adaptor...

My non-tech self has been looking for that for years, Man, that's gonna help me resurrect several 2600's!!!

Never could figure out "where" to get an RCA cord with a teeny tiny plug to replace the original.

Thanks!!!

You're welcome! You could also use just a standard RCA video cable. The shielding on them is generally terrible though (like the original Atari cable).

1 hour ago, Rogerpoco said:

I'll probably look into it, but does anyone know straightaway if that Sony tuner will convert signal from a PAL 2600 to an NTSC TV?

(Prolly a noob question, but I really want to get my PAL 2600 working...).

It will not - it's NTSC. To display PAL, you need a PAL demodulator and a monitor that can display PAL video. Or a PAL demodulator and a converter. Or something that does both in one box (but I've only seen ones that output HDMI). What the signal looks like at the other end though... that's anyone's guess.

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RF suffers from quality loss (versus composite) not from any issue inherent in RF but because of the modulation (up to 61.25MHz / 67.25MHz & VSB filter) and demodulation (back down from VHF) steps.  And you can bet the RF parts in the VCS and most TVs weren't of top quality (which is why you get such an improvement using your studio demodulator).  In addition, as you've found, shielding can make a huge difference in signal quality.

 

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I'm using F connectors on both ends (the Canare ones, pictured here). I ended up getting the lighter (1505A) cable from Blue Jeans (which I wrote about here).

 

I could've custom-ordered a cable with F on one end, and RCA on the other. That would've saved me an RCA to F adapter, but the odds are, due to the limited clearance inside the 2600 and the stiffness of the cable, I would've had to add at least one, probably two 90° RCA adapters inside the 2600 anyway. I might order one of those for my 7800 though, since that's an external connection and space isn't an issue.

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How did you grind the middle pin down?  I am trying to get a better rf signal.  Moved to a place with high powered lines nearby and it is wreaking havoc on my atari signal.  Probably not worth moving though....

 

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12 hours ago, Novastar said:

How did you grind the middle pin down?  I am trying to get a better rf signal.  Moved to a place with high powered lines nearby and it is wreaking havoc on my atari signal.  Probably not worth moving though....

I used a fine-toothed hacksaw blade to cut it off, and a metal file to round it over. A Dremel with a cutting disc would also work. A file by itself would work, but it would take awhile.

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Thank you for this extremely useful post!

I have issues with an Atari 2600 Junior in Europe (jittery, unstable picture).

Would I need a PAL demodulator instead of Sony's TU-1041U, which I understand is NTSC ? What model should I be looking for?  Sony's can easily be found on ebay, as you said, but will it help in Europe? 

Thanks in advance. 

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The Sony model is for NTSC, so it's looking for an NTSC RF input signal, and it outputs only NTSC-compatible composite video. I don't know if Sony made a PAL version.

 

This PAL tuner is available through Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07B1KFT5P/ but I've never tried it.

 

If you get one and try it out, be sure to post about it so others can find out if it works.

 

Good luck!

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This post is great! My heavy sixer original cable had disconnected and while I have fixed the tip it doesn't seem to want to stay. And it seems the video on a couple others seem to be out and I suspect similar issues with the cables so I was going to swap out a couple this week and was looking for a. Ice detailed article. Thanks!

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I find your post to be bizarre, because it's completely at odds with how things work at my house (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your post; I have no doubt it's accurate relative to what happens at your house).

 

At my house the RF cable doesn't matter. I never see even a single speck of "snow," not even in a picture taken of the screen, not even with the stock RF cable (which I connect directly to the TV's tuner with an RCA-to-F adapter). That applies to all six of my Atari 2600s (four 6-switch models and two 4-switch woodgrain models) and to my Atari 7800. Also, the RF cable's proximity to the AC adapter's cord makes no difference whatsoever; they can be all tangled together or separated as far as possible and I get the exact same picture either way. Using the stock RF cable or using far superior RG6 given to me by a cable TV installer (which he had leftover after installing cable at my house many years ago) results in the exact same picture too.

 

I do get some RF interference but it's never in the form of white specks ("snow"), but rather, it's in the form of faint/shadowy diagonal lines on the screen, which are in constant motion, and they continually vary in degree of visibility. They also vary depending on the colors being displayed. They are most prominent with certain shades of green, and they pretty much disappear with certain other colors. If you watch the attract mode in Space Invaders for example, you can see them instantly come and go at the color change points. Here's a picture of the diagonal interference lines on my "heavy sixer" (it should be opened at its original resolution [800x600] to eliminate the moire effect caused by the forum software resizing it to embed into this post):

 

atari2600heavysixerdiagonalrfinterference.thumb.jpg.0f556e22830475784e7e664bb0eb4f6d.jpg

 

My 6-switch models are the worst in that respect (but they have the best colors by far); the 4-switch models have less of that type of interference, and my 7800 has none at all. Here's what that same screen looks like on my 7800:

 

atari7800littlerfinterference.thumb.jpg.429ffe267898b44515d04f429b72a21e.jpg

 

The cleanest RF output I've ever seen is from my frontloader NES; it's nearly as clean as its direct composite video output, and that's using it's stock automatic RF switchbox, which has a very skinny coaxial cable, even skinnier than the stock Atari ones.

 

I would love to know how to eliminate those diagonal lines on my 6-switch models, especially my heavy one (because I use that one the most), but I have no idea how. Like I said, the type of coaxial cable and its proximity to the power supply's cord have no effect on it whatsoever. It must be possible though, because my 7800 has a very clean picture by RF standards, almost as clean as my NES's RF picture.

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I've seen the same sort of herring-bone effect on my RF systems too. Sometimes the cable helps with that, but sometimes it seems the console itself is picking up the interference. Could also be impacted by the how clean the power is going into the console. It may help recapping the systems and replacing the voltage regulators, if you haven't already done so.

 

As for why the 7800 looks better - it could be the RF circuitry in the 7800 is simply improved over than that of the 2600. Typically 7800 video is noticeably dimmer and desaturated than that of a 2600, so there's certainly some differences in the circuitry. I've found my own 7800 can be noticeably cleaner with RF than my 4-switch 2600.

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12 hours ago, Nathan Strum said:

I've seen the same sort of herring-bone effect on my RF systems too. Sometimes the cable helps with that, but sometimes it seems the console itself is picking up the interference. Could also be impacted by the how clean the power is going into the console. It may help recapping the systems and replacing the voltage regulators, if you haven't already done so.

 

As for why the 7800 looks better - it could be the RF circuitry in the 7800 is simply improved over than that of the 2600. Typically 7800 video is noticeably dimmer and desaturated than that of a 2600, so there's certainly some differences in the circuitry. I've found my own 7800 can be noticeably cleaner with RF than my 4-switch 2600.

It's almost certainly happening before the signal even reaches the RF cable, otherwise using RG6 cable would fix it, or at least result in some sort of change.

 

I've already replaced capacitors and the 7805 in my heavy sixer.

 

I'd like to know why it only happens with certain colors. It's especially weird that it doesn't even happen with all shades of green; there are both darker and lighter shades of green that it doesn't happen with. White is another color it doesn't happen with, so, e.g., Activision Skiing looks very clean. And of course, it doesn't happen with black, and there are lots of black-background 2600 games.

 

In order to refresh my memory I just tried all of my 2600s one after the other. The two 4-switch woodgrain ones both have faint shadowy vertical lines that aren't in motion; evenly spaced about a quarter-inch apart across the whole screen ("jail bars"), and they are always there, i.e., unaffected by the colors on the screen. They didn't have the 6-switch type diagonal lines. The four 6-switch ones (3 light, 1 heavy) all have the diagonal lines that are in motion, fluctuating, and changing depending on the colors on the screen, disappearing altogether with some colors (no "jail bars" though). With one of the light sixers it was less prominent than the other three 6-switch ones.

 

I used the stock RF cable plugged into an RCA-to-F connector for all six of them, and I haven't done anything to them except for the heavy sixer because it's the main one that I use, so as a matter of preventative maintenance I've already replaced capacitors, voltage regulator, and switches on that one. I also did the 820-ohm resistor modification from the Atari Field Service Manual to the two 4-switch ones, which drastically improved their colors.

 

And for good measure I tried one of the light sixers with an RG6 cable (terminated with Belden PPC EX6 F connectors, along with an F-to-RCA adapter on one end to plug into the Atari's RF modulator) after trying it with its stock cable; no change whatsoever.

 

In summary:

 

- Replacing capacitors and the voltage regulator in the heavy sixer didn't make it any better than the light sixers that are still all stock, and one of the light sixers actually has the least amount of those diagonal lines out of all four of the 6-switch ones.

 

- The type of RF cable makes no difference whatsoever in my house, nor does its proximity to the AC adapter and its cord.

 

- My 4-switch versions have a completely different type of RF interference than my 6-switch versions, a type that's very similar to the type that an NES top-loader has.

 

- I tried my 7800 again this morning too, and it has no 4-switch type "jail bars" at all and almost no 6-switch type diagonal lines. There are a couple shades of green where you can faintly and briefly see 6-switch type diagonal lines though.

 

- Not a single speck of "snow" on any of them, ever, but the 7800 does have some minor staticky sounds in the audio that I've never noticed before. I don't know what that's all about.

 

I used the attract mode of Space Invaders for all tests.

Edited by MaximRecoil
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Also, I forgot to mention: with the 6-switch ones, if I switch to B&W mode, the diagonal lines go away completely and the picture is very clean, so those lines don't get produced on any shade of gray. I'm wondering if those diagonal lines are even caused by RF interference to begin with. If they were, I wouldn't think the colors being displayed would affect them at all, i.e., I would expect them to be there no matter what colors are being displayed. I don't know what else could cause them though.

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6 hours ago, Nathan Strum said:

Slightly wonky TIA maybe?

In all four of them (or five counting the 7800, which is mostly, but not entirely, devoid of the diagonal lines)? And all slightly wonky in the exact same way?

Edited by MaximRecoil
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6 hours ago, Nathan Strum said:

Fussy TV maybe?

I just tried a different CRT TV and got the exact same results. My main TV is a 32" RCA CRT that I bought new in 2005. I wanted to try it with the Sears 19" TV (manufactured by Goldstar) that was our family TV from 1988-on. I haven't turned it on since about 2005, and it came on for about a second and shut off. I thought I saw a wisp of smoke, but I'm not positive; I didn't smell anything, and when I took it apart, I couldn't see any signs of anything burnt on the chassis. One of the two glass fuses was blown though (125v, 1A). The only fuse of that type I could find in my house was a 125v, 300mA one from a Nintendo/Sanyo arcade monitor chassis, so I tried that, but it blew instantly, and I don't know if that's because the fuse was too light to begin with (less than 1/3 the amperage rating of the stock fuse) or because there's a failure somewhere that would cause another 1A fuse to immediately blow too, so now I have an unexpected and unwelcome project on my hands.

 

Then I tried a 13" Symphonic CRT TV and like I said, I got the exact same results as with my 32" TV.

 

It must have something to do with the chroma signal because of the way the diagonal lines only accompany certain colors, and go away completely in B&W mode.

Edited by MaximRecoil
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Excellent post, OP. Thank you. I have the following problems, are these RF-related or sign of bad capacitors?

 

Vertical bars, but not quite jail bars.

PXL_20231117_130824506.thumb.jpg.01dac242dcabadd6a1b3614009eb44ed.jpgPXL_20231117_130834465.thumb.jpg.4c1e04e264603bbc6faf51011fd09bbd.jpg

 

 

Also, bright colors cause distortion to a point where if a screen is very bright the game becomes unplayable.

 

 

 

 

PXL_20231117_130909174.thumb.jpg.205590f4d00963556e102bd0b9321a99.jpgPXL_20231117_130853313.thumb.jpg.c579f297f657a16819e48b75ce3b8aee.jpg

 

This was a new old stock PAL clone with no RF shield inside, and it was never recapped/fixed.

 

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