Albert Posted April 20, 2002 Share Posted April 20, 2002 I just wanted to give everyone a heads up on some 8-bit carts that are currently up on eBay: eBay Seller List: ndary Two of the carts this seller currently has up are Hard Hack Mac and Who Dares Win 2. These games were never released in cartridge form, and this seller has a history of selling very convincing copies of Atari 8-bit carts. While I'm not crazy about someone selling copies of games on eBay, what irritates me here is the seller makes no mention of the fact that these are copies. So people may be bidding on these carts thinking they are originals. Soon they'll start showing up in Atari 8-bit cart lists and we'll be getting emails asking how rare they are and why we don't have any info about them online (once we put our 8-bit section up). So a word to the wise, if you buy any Atari 8-bit carts from this seller be warned that you may simply be buying a copy and not an original game. ..Al [ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Albert ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callipygous Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 The Tapper cart he is selling is also a copy. Tapper is now listed as not released. It was carried on cart lists for years because Sega had it in their catalog and everyone assumed it existed. Last year, however, there was a newsgroup discussion of some of the carts on Andrew Kreig's list. Quite a few were removed as vaporware. Anyway, no collector could come forward with an actual Tapper cart. It was reclassified as NR and, so far, no one else has claimed to have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krawhitham Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 Tapper XEGS64 dumped okay Who Dares Wins II XEGS64 dumped okay they are "Hacked/pirated/homemade Carts" but there are a few hundred floating around found nothing on Hard Hat Mac but I assume it is the same type of thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 Which carts were moved to the Vaporware section? It's always hard to figure out if something is just really really rare or unreleased. I was about to pass Matterhorn by Tigervision off as not being relesed, but one popped up on Ebay a few months back. Talk about a low production run... Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callipygous Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 IIRC, the discussion started around Parker Bros Tutankham. Lance Ringquist confirmed it didn't exist. All those Synapse carts were removed. Don't remember them all Zeppelin, Survivor, Shadow World etc. Chessmaster 2000, Rosen's Brigade , Doc Goodcode's Cavern, Movie Maker. Tapper, Sammy Lightfoot, Capture the Flag, Bumper Bash, Frantic Freddie, Rock & Rhythm, Aegean Voyage. Most were removed because no one could confirm existence. Some were just mistakes to begin with. There is another group which only few examples exist per title. Matterhorn, Espial, Da'Fuzz, Lifespan among them. It could be that these are loaner/tester/review carts. A production , even a small one, would be in the hundreds of carts. More people would have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 Are you sure its Da'Fuzz and not D'Fuse? There's a Vic-20 game called D'Fuse that was never released, but the programmer gave Ward a prototype of it. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callipygous Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 quoteAre you sure its Da'Fuzz and not D'Fuse? No, its the Da'Fuzz by Roklan. Most of ones I mention are similar. They were at computer shows and reviewed in the magazines, but then never showed up. Probably caused by "Da'Crash" . Its pure speculation on my part, but the carts of these titles would seem to be of the promotional variety. I mean you dont have a production of 5 or 10 carts, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari Frog Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 Hi again, << Lance Ringquist confirmed it [Tutankham] didn't exist >> There is a Parker Brothers ad where you can see the box of the Atari 8-bit version. Pretty odd... << All those Synapse carts were removed. Don't remember them all Zeppelin, Survivor, Shadow World etc. >> Not so sure about the Synapse carts. Still, you're correct, until somebody spots one... Interesting fact, though: Survivor and Shadow World, if I'm not mistaken, are EXACT 16K games (132 sectors on an Atari disk). << Chessmaster 2000 >> How did this one get into the list? << Rosen's Brigade >> A mistake from the beginning. It was marketed by Gentry Software, which was the "budget" division of Datasoft. Why would they have sold cartridges? << Doc Goodcode's Cavern >> A game written in BASIC which, I think, never even appeared on tape. How did this one initially enter the list? << Movie Maker >> Could exist as a prototype somewhere... << Sammy Lightfoot >> Could this one exist as a beta? << Capture the Flag >> I have the manual for that one, I'll check if it mentions a ROM version. BTW, how about Megaforce, Alien and Deadly Duck? According to a game manual (don't remember which, maybe Turmoil?), these were available. Maybe they were programmed to some point? << Bumper Bash >> Mentioned in some dealer ads. << Frantic Freddie >> A legend probably... But how about Gold Mine? << Rock & Rhythm >> Yep, probably disk only. << Aegean Voyage >> Was to be released along with Ranch and Bubble Burst. This one appears on the Spinnaker Software catalogs. Atari Frog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuckandCover Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 I hope that this doesn't come across as just me ranting but if it does, oh well. I've been collecting 2600 carts for a couple of years now, and in the process, I've learned (to a certain degree), how to spot items of questionable authenticity. But as far as 8-bit items go, I'm still pretty much a newbie. Heck, I didn't even know Andrew Kreig's list even existed until a helpful member of this board directed me to it. I say all that to say that it would be very easy for someone like me to get suckered by auctions like this. I grant you, you will get a playable game for your computer system, but I would have probably purchased the cart thinking it was something authentic. It seems to me that deceptive practices like these are designed to take advantage of the inexperienced, and I think that they have a negative impact on the entire auction community. I wish sellers like ndary would be up front about the nature of their products. There's nothing wrong with selling copies, provided the buyer knows what they're really getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 Has anyone contacted this individual about clarifying his auctions? If he refuses to do so he should be reported to eBay, because he is clearly violating their user policy. I wouldn't have a problem with it if he would just be clear about what he's selling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krawhitham Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 I have da'fuzz and lifespan cartridges if anybody needs rom dumps for them let me know. "Has anyone contacted this individual about clarifying his auctions? If he refuses to do so he should be reported to eBay, because he is clearly violating their user policy" he is not doing anything wrong he is selling cartridge version of those games which do exist in very small numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 The problem is he's selling the games as if they are real cartridges from Atari and they are not. They are games transferred from disk to cartridge form, yet he makes no mention of this in the auction description. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Krawhitham: he is not doing anything wrong he is selling cartridge version of those games which do exist in very small numbers The problem is that those are not real Atari releases. Those are hobbyist cartrdiges that he made himself. By not clarifying that fact, he may be selling to people who are not getting what they think they're getting. And if that isn't enough for you, technically it's copyright violation and illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndary Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 interesting how I was introduced to this message board.. its shame that things are said about me without letting me know... if some one wants to know.. please ask.. I am not hiding from anyone!!! first I would like to point out that I have no intention to mislead anyone.. its not the 1st time that I post an item on eBay.. (eBay is the easiest way for me to buy Atari items and sell extra stuff that I have) in the past I posted several cartridge on eBay and clearly wrote, that the cartridges are made form prototype rom images and they are not an original release from Atari.. (I never claimed to be the source who knows anything about ATARI XL/XE cartridge history) for the ones who are more involved in the Atari scene you will find that I am not the only one who have this cartridges.. my contact information are also available on that page to anyone who would like to ask or clear any question.. keeping the ATARI XL/XE ALIVE is my dream. in my spare time i collect and reveal unique Atari items.. and i have been supporting the Atari community for the past 10 years.. http://thor.prohosting.com/~atari8/ For the ones who does not like these auctions.. simply dont bid.. every item i post is fully tested... and clearly saies what it is.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari Frog Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 Hello everybody, Krawhitham, are your Roklan cartridges prototypes? Do you have pictures? I also have several questions about Tapper... How many versions actually exist? Is the European release on disk the same as the US release? Is the European tape release a tweaked version with less screens? Another strange thing is that the version on the Master Games compilation by US Gold has a different title screen! Opinions? Atari Frog [ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: Atari Frog ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted April 22, 2002 Share Posted April 22, 2002 ndary, Can you please clarify this for me? Is Tapper a real cartridge that was released by Atari, or did you make this yourself? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted April 22, 2002 Author Share Posted April 22, 2002 quote: Originally posted by ndary: first I would like to point out that I have no intention to mislead anyone.. its not the 1st time that I post an item on eBay.. (eBay is the easiest way for me to buy Atari items and sell extra stuff that I have) I'm sorry this is how you were introduced to our message boards, but since you no longer seem to be informing people that your auctions are not original carts, it's only fair that we give people a heads up here. If you stated clearly in these auctions that these are simply reproductions and not original cartridges, I'd have much less of a problem with them. However, I've seen an email someone sent John Hardie informing him about a "previously undiscovered cart" that turned out to be one of your 8-bit cartridge auctions. I have no doubt that many people look at your auctions and think, "Holy cow! I've never seen that 8-bit cart before!", then bid on these carts thinking they're the genuine article. And even if people don't bid, since you don't have a disclaimer stating that these are not original carts, many people might believe these games exist. Then they'll start showing up in various lists online as officially released carts, we'll get questions about them, and we'll have to spend time educating people that these are only copies and are not the real thing. As it stands now, your current round of auctions is misleading, as have several previous rounds of fake 8-bit carts I've seen you run. It is not the bidder's responsibility to have to ask, "Is this a real cartridge or a copy?" If you are sincere in not wanting to mislead people then hopefully you will add this missing information to your future auctions. If not, then we will continue to inform people about your auctions when they pop up. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smf_4ever Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Albert: It is not the bidder's responsibility to have to ask, "Is this a real cartridge or a copy?" If you are sincere in not wanting to mislead people then hopefully you will add this missing information to your future auctions. If not, then we will continue to inform people about your auctions when they pop up. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianoid Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Although I think Nir should probably mention that these are derived from ROM images and DISK images in his auctions, I can only vouch for him very seriously. His intention isn't to mislead people into buying his carts. Most people in the know realize what he's doing, and alot of us have his carts in out collections, despite the fact that they are unreleased. The fact the they don't garner enormous bids should be a tip off. Sure, he should say something for the newbies, but they are getting a pretty righteous product for a reasonable price in most cases. As with all homebrews, it takes alot of time and effort to put the games together. These projects often require some coding to fit onto a cartridge, which Nir does himself. And I know many of you will dispute these as 'homebrews,' but they are home made carts that take as much effort as anything people are putting out. Nir has visited my apartment, and his knowledge, generosity and interest in Atari 8bit stuff is as great as anyone. He is a great guy. I often wonder why he doesn't mention the origin of the carts he sells- perhaps he will be open to this suggestion. It doesn't matter. I'm psyched to have Tapper on a cart (Since I don't really play anything on disk), as well as Mr. Do's Castle, and whatever. And better yet, they look like real carts and fit in nicely in my collection. Nir has a collection of game images to make any 8bit collector drool. He's always asking me what I'd like to get on a cart. I only wish I knew more about his ROMs! The $20 he sells most of his carts for can't generate a ton of profit beyond the cost of acquiring the apropriate case, hardware, and time to resoldier chips. I think they're a bargain despite their origin. And for Nir, I know it's a labor of love. Again, I certainly respect your (Albert) sentiments about mentioning that he made the carts. But in the end, he is offering a really cool service that I personally appreciate and respect. -ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattG/Snyper2099 Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Ok, I have some spare time here so I'm going to post some comments. I respect everyone's opinions and feel like Ndary should at the very least say he makes the carts himself in his auctions. I mean, wouldn't you want to stand behind your work and let people know this great thing you are doing for the atari community? It could only help both parties involved in the long run to add additional information about such auctions. If it's on the items description or on these boards here, that's up to the seller. However, you can't be upset with the way you were introduced to this board and that it's wrong. Wouldn't you want people on this board to help support you? It's no more wrong to be introduced to this board in that way as it is to put auctions up that are of your own creation on e-bay and not state that fact in the item's description. I myself have a huge collection of Atari 8-bit roms on disks (literally 1000's) as well as carts and would love to see some of those ROMs make their way to a cart format in the years to come. However, I would like to know that the origins of the roms being sold are copied ROMS, in some cases from disks, and not an origional cartidge. This piece of information is very important from a collector's standpoint. Keep up the good work Ndary but remember to stand behind what you are creating. [ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: MattG ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 I exchanged a few emails with Nir after this thread came up, it was all very friendly. He agreed that he should clarify his auctions and that he will do so in the future. I didn't want to post this necessarily because he had emailed me privately, but I wanted to let you all know that he didn't just disappear from the board without answering these questions. So I don't think it will be a problem in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callipygous Posted April 26, 2002 Share Posted April 26, 2002 quoteHe agreed that he should clarify his auctions and that he will do so in the future. [/QB] Great! If he needs any help with the auction description, I would be glad to help. This is not to underestimate Mr. Dary's language skills. He writes very well in English. Much better than I would write in Hebrew . Still, some of the auction description comes out a little stilted to native speaker. Remember also that these auctions are in violation of eBay rules. The carts are copies of programs that someone else owns the rights to. The auction description must be worded in a way to avoid eBay scanning the auction and zapping it. For example, you can call it a homebrew or “not an original” but avoid using “copy” in the verbiage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndary Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 if you all look at my previus auctions (before these 3) they did say that the cartridges where produced from prototype rom images and not an original release.... and so i will in the future.. cartridges had started to be my favurite reseatch in the past two years.. i collect them and the duplicate i got i open then up to learn more about them (some pepole had already searching to kill me for doing this ).. i did find a lot.. like the Sega cartridges pcb where support to support more then just 27c64 eproms. the pcb inside have an emply slot for a logic 74ls chip.. by investigating the Tapper game i found out that it was ready made to be ported into a cartridge.. this how the tapper cart game to life.. similar how the montezuma revange cart came to life.. a 16k version was avaliable and if you examine the source its a cart rom image ready to go.. (with a minor change to the run / init address).. i belive for some reason this was inteded to be the released version of Montezuma Revange.. and for production reason was not.. Few other cartridges i was able to recreate by reverse engeneering.. prototype roms: Pharahos Curse, Shamus Case 2, Quazimodo, Shadow World, Laser Gates, 16k ver of crystal castle, satnas hollow, cosmic tunnels, pooyan tank commander.. i am working on Blue Print, Rampage.. and few more.. I am not doing this for profit, i see it as a challage to continue where Atari Stoped.. and make some dream come true.. pepole who knows me already benefit.. they simply sent me the needed parts and i created / or traded carts for them.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheddy Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Nir, what a welcome to the board! Glad you have cleared up the misunderstandings. Maybe I should start a new thread (or do a google search), but was there ever a "standard" 256kb cart for 8-bit, I know there were some 128k ones, but were there ever ones that big? If not, is it possible to do easily? (hypothetically) Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jindroush Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 quote: but was there ever a "standard" 256kb cart for 8-bit, Yes. Czech MD-Dos allowed that. Maybe more, but I never seen bigger one. quote: I know there were some 128k ones, but were there ever ones that big? If not, is it possible to do easily? (hypothetically) It's not a problem to make 2/4 MB (byte, not bit!) cartridge. That big EEPROMs would be the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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