e5frog
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Posts posted by e5frog
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4 hours ago, Mikebloke said:...what frequency "channel 3" is you'd think I'd know it by heart by now...
Doesn't help it's different for different countries.
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Not accusing anyone, just tought it's worth mentioning as not every Channel F collector is as old that they have had a black and white TV growing up... or one without a remote control.
I have a friend who thought selecting channel memory position 3 (or 4) was the same as selecting channel 3 (or 4).
"Channel 3" means video is (in the US) at a frequency of about 61.25MHz and "channel 4" is 65.75MHz, you can then save that frequency setting on your TV at any memory position 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6... 99...999 by tuning it via TV menus - or via knobs on old TV:s. Don't know if the older TV:s had fixed channel settings and a fine tune, it's quite possible.TV-makers who has some faith in humanity will display either option or both when searching, some just have an anonymous bar, maybe with "VHF"/"UHF" over it.
Modern TV:s often have more than one channel search option, digital, cable... where you'd find nothing if searching for a digital channel.
If frequency of "channel 3" happens to be on channel memory position 3 - well that's either a default or pure luck.Anyway, after 45 years it's expected that components will drift a little, there's adjustments that can be made if you feel you can at least not make it worse. If the image is good and sound is bad there's an adjustment for the sound that can be made - or you adjust the image until you reach the "channel 3" frequency and then adjust the sound there as well, perhaps it's already in the right position. Just don't use metal tools on the ferrite screws inside the metal covered coils.
I usually turn until it goes bad, then opposite way until it goes bad an then use the setting in between these end points. It's a good idea to mark or remember the original setting so you can return to that if you're not getting any improvement.Antenna cable or connectors could be bad, if you get a good image the cable is fine, swapping it will not help with the sound.
Then there's composite modding - which means you'll get composite video straight out as well as sound and you don't need to be bothered with those things.
I tried adding enough information about it here:
http://channelf.se/veswiki/index.php?title=Modding
You'll loose some authentic feel but it may help with a modern TV with those inputs. An old small TV often has super duper image - on a 50+ inch TV it might look like crap.
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It would be really cool having a "Channel SD" cart. There are people with finished solutions, that they aren't keen on sharing (I understand why), selling something like 20 carts a year is perhaps not a market that is tempting to spend time on. Unless you're into the system yourself.
I have been meaning to make a simple dev cart for years that is able to load data via USB and not having to use an eprom programmer and socketed memory... hasn't happened yet even though CAD drawings have been done for several versions. It's mainly a "money for prototyping" problem, which has been tight for the last six years with the wife in school (for adult people).
There's a system for Vectrex identifying a 39SFxxx flashrom as a USB memory which seems interesting.
Instead of the programmer as a separate part it could be built into the cartridge and you'd have a USB connector in the cart.
Borrowed one of them from a friend but haven't had time to spend on it yet.
SD would be really cool though but seems to have a larger threshold.
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Most print shops can't print thick enough cardboard (it's already too thin IMO) and the cardboard printing people either just work with companies, have a hefty smallest order value, not four colour prints, not thin enough cardboard, wants me to pay for a tool to make the prefolds - or one that is combined with a cutting tool (wayy over my budget). Some charge a bunch just for the preparation for the print and some stop replying when I tell them how many prints I need (it's been 50pcs at the time lately).
I have considered getting cardboard and glue thin printed paper (as you see on many older game boxes) but after some testing I wasn't able to make it look even OK, having a company do it would be even more expensive than normal print. There are white boxes you can buy as well, haven't found one to my liking though (too large usually) - and I'd not be happy with a "white box release" - not sure anyone else would appreciate that either.
I have previously printed single boxes (for size/test purposes or single release) on the thickest photo paper I could find for my printer, but they're way too thin and I'd probably make a loss on just the ink, having chosen black boxes like the original.
It's possible I'm too picky but I can't bare to release stuff I'm not happy with.
Should I find another print place that still leaves me with some payment for all the time and money spent on materials I also need to have test prints made to adjust colors etc as I don't have knowledge about such things or professional equipment to handle it. There's a lot of communications and testing before the end result. Not just sending a file and get stuff back the next week.Some earlier prints have turned out awful compared to what I expected and the prints that came out fine looked like crap after CMYK-conversion... no wonder people have this as a job. So buying 50-100 box prints and them coming out looking like crap... would be a huge loss.
But I'm actually fine with running even up at this time, it's been a long time.
Looking abroad (outside Sweden) there's the same problems as above plus the shipping costs. I haven't asked around yet. If anyone has tips about a European/Northern Europe print place that makes cardboard prints - I'm interested.
The place I have used since I started making Multi-Carts fulfill all needs I have in this matter, price, quality, services, size of edition and ease of contact. Only detail I don't like is the thickness of the cardboard but I have learned to live with that instead of having to pay multiple times as much. Still annoys me when I think about it. It's already expensive for a buyer, if it gets too much sales will get lower and the per-unit price will be even higher. It's a viscous circle.
Anyway, regarding Tetris I expected some more interested people, it's a project with loss at the moment, just counting parts costs (including test- and prototyping-materials).
So, I'm hoping that my usual printer guy comes back out from the darkness, if they have back orders I'm guessing my small job is not prioritized.
I'm also hoping they're not out of the game entirely because of the virus as far as I can see the company is still active, just not active.
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Sounds like a TV problem. What kind are you using?
There are adjustments inside the console you could try, if you're uncertain you might mess it up though and de-tune sound for example.
If you need to adjust the ferrite in the coils you must not use a metal screwdriver - it may crack the ferrite and you're scre*.
But start trying to adjust the TV, turn off autoadjust or use/activate manual adjustment.
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I'm still alive.
Trying to sort out the box print dilemma as described in the Tetris (Videocart 28) thread. -
I'll just copy what I wrote on eBay:
I can't seem to get in touch with the print-guy, should I ship Tetris without boxes and instead homemade labels (old school as early multis and most Pac-Man)?
I print them with canon ink on a canon pro-100s now-a-days, on canon photo paper, then cold laminate them (transparent sticker film basically). The richness in color is of course fantastic compared to CMYK-print.
It's tedious though as I get about 50% scrap with all involved steps, especially attaching said film, so it's a lot of work.
I could ship them without box and also without labels - but I feel that would be a bad idea.
If anyone wants their Tetris shipped ASAP it should arrive before Christmas. I would be required to precharge shipping of the box coming later on, as it's another package box, which is only about $2 and also the postage, which varies but let's say I'll take some of the cost and even it down to $10 (think it'll be at least $14), it's a very light item to ship.
Just send me a PM, we'll get it sorted (I shipped the first 10 or so multi-carts without boxes. Boxes were delivered... at least a year later... worked out well except in two cases where the buyer had moved. That time I had promised at the time of selling that if a box was made (my first project like this) everyone would get one _for free_. I should have asked for shipping though - but a promise is a promise.
You hardly need to wait a year for boxes, job is done, printer's needed files are done, I have even e-mailed them but not gotten any reply (also not in the spam folder).
I have been looking for an option, the ones that I can afford don't print on that thick cardboard and I already think it's a bit too thin so...
The cardboard box printer-people are really expensive, about 3-4 times the price.
I'm entertaining the idea of purchasing abroad but I might get a batch that's simply crap and need to throw it all out, my old print guy may pre-crease poorly but the print is outstandingly correct to what I have on screen when drawing them.
So, PM, $10 for early box-less delivery (to be sent later). -
Carlsson... har du tullat på glöggen redan?
{... have you already started on the spiced warm wine (which is a traditional Swedish Christmas beverage to enjoy in small amounts with almonds, raisins and whatever people put in there - preferably with gingerbreads)}
Should make it into a karaoke cartridge with music, the Sleisza music routine has a few cycles where it might be possible to put some graphics out, probably with a staccato effect.-
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Cartridge is 20mm thick, 0.79" - so it should fit in that box as well with box folded twice.
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You get it down to 11x19.7 mm with two simple folds.
(4.33" x 7.76 " for the infidels)
Which means stupus recommends a box that fits.
Tada!
As I have understood it, boxes are shipped uncut?
I promise I'll deliver boxes ready to go next time - for two carts payment... I didn't know it was going to be difficult to do this. I have for ten years or so and now and then I've had a blister on the thumb from the scissors - which I have bought new and sharp two times during this time. Like a hot knife through butter. -
Hey Chris! Nice to see you're still with us (not a Covid-19 victim).
Possibly, they're pretty sturdy with the cart inside, if box is cut and assembled.
If you make fold/s on the uncut box along the pre-creases it might be easier to find a working size, perhaps one of those cardboard envelopes or book mailers in a large enough size. Wrapping the box print in bubble wrap will undeniably end with the box bent, maybe damaged.https://www.amazon.co.uk/292mm-Cardboard-Envelopes-Mailers-50/dp/B00HVXYWN0
There are companies you can leave goods to and an address list and they'll pack and ship it for you, might not be economically sane for such a small amount. Then it's on their warrant though and they'll pack well (and charge well).
Perhaps someone in the US can help out, cut and fold all boxes. There are people with home X-Y cutting machines that could solve that part rather easily.
... I'm having trouble lately to get any box prints at all. Maybe I could ship Tetris in inside-out wrong creased Trimerous boxes (if I haven't dumped them in the recycle bin already) that I write Tetris on with a marker.
Seems I'll loose money in that end anyway as nobody has ordered one or shown interest since I let ordering loose. Might as well take that loss later one. (it's a joke, I'm bothering the printers every week, no replies).
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I meant, if they are broken it's difficult to source new ones, most other things I can replace.
Atari 2600 was a bit more common, the TIA:s might have been used in other things as well... actually have a couple of those myself. -
There's five 40 pin chip, as you can see the pins a very blackened, oxidation may cause bad connection between the chip pin and the socket.
If you can't/won't/don't dare I recommend asking someone who do/can/dare or sell it.
The graphic error could be the RAM chips (four small ones in sockets).Since it's freezed it seems the CPU or PSU:s are to blame, it's just stuck and graphics from the ram is simply displayed on the TV without updates.
But it's advisable to do the free options first.
Power it up, check if the red LED by the two metal towers light up. You can also measure the 12V and 5V with a multimeter on the capacitors by the 3850 chip (it's the CPU).
Also push on top of the visible socketed chips, there's more under the cartridge holder but leave them alone for now.12V is on the capacitor pin closest to the controller ports and closest to the metal box. 5V on the other capacitor in the same spot. You may note the negative side is connected to the large grounded surface. Negative probe can be held against the metal cage or anywhere on the large metal area on the board - or the other leg of the capacitor if you want to.
Be careful not to make a connection between capacitor pin and the ground area under it.Then with RF hooked up to TV with the nice mosaic patter... press reset, wait 3 seconds, press 1 for hockey, wait 3 seconds, press 4 to start, wait 3 seconds, if you can't hear any sound when volume is turned up on the TV with pattern visible - press 4 again and wait a few seconds. If there's sound... swap all RAM chips.
Again, check if the LED by the two towers (trimmer coil shield metal boxes) is turned on, if it is then shut off and proceed.
It's a lot easier if you remove the motherboard from the metal box, I suggest moving operations to your metal kitchen sink for ESD safety.
You need to unscrew the cartridge holder and pull the flat cable from the motherboard connectors (which will be cumbersome to reattach).
Now you'll also see the two Program Storage Units that hold the built-in games.Pull the white ribbon cable by the two regulators.
The two regulators are sometimes screwed to the metal, can't decide in this case.
Someone has added screws on the two joystick-ports, they need to be removed - basically any screw you can see needs to be removed.Regulators are usually socketed (could also be a source of bad contact because of oxidation) , you should be able to remove those - NOTE WHICH ONE IS WHERE! 7812 and 7805 with or without letters added or other numbers as well.
Finally it's the ground braid that needs to be parted from the metal box, if you don't have a solder iron you can use pliers/scissors/toe nail clippers/teeth and cut it in half and you can connect ends with one of those cable joiners with screws. Or as close to the soldering spot on the metal box as possible so it can be reattached with a soldering iron if needed.
Pull board out by getting a grip on the opposite side of the controller ports/regulators/RF-connector, you need an angle to pull the ports and RF connector out out of the metal box.
Note the direction of the chips, a photo will be enough.
It's now easier to put a flat head screwdriver (or equally flat object) between the chip and socket and twist the screwdriver slowly.
MAKE SURE it's not between the motherboard and socket - you'll damage stuff.
Lift a little on one side with this twist method and then on the other side, a bit at the time as the legs will bend if you violently tear loose one side all the way up.
It's often enough to simply pry out chip half way and push it back down a few times to wear off oxidation.
Start practicing on the small RAM-chips, it's not that difficult.I like to remove one chip at the time and make sure it has metal gloss on pins. You can hold it under water (protects against ESD) and scrub it along the legs from top to bottom with steel wool/scotch brite/brass metal brush/melamine sponge until you have shiny legs again.
If you have a solder iron you can tin the legs and remove excess with desolder braid - it adds oxidation protection but it's slower. Dry and blow the chip, make sure there's no water left that can short it. You can blow it with a hair dryer if you want to be extra careful - but if it's not visible, it's not going to be a problem.
With all chips done (and in the proper direction, compare to your photo), preferably put the board back in the case, make sure the ground braid doesn't touch anything, reattach the white flat cable for power and populate the RF-connector, no need to reattach the cartridge holder yet.
Now for a test... was it oxidation or something worse... turn it on... any difference?
If it's a bit more than you want to handle you can print this, and a copy of the schematic and see if you can find someone with a solder iron (they likely have some experience).
Next step would be to check chip functionality - it's easiest if you have another, working, unit to test your chips in.Schematics:
http://channelf.se/veswiki/index.php?title=Schematics
I have the reverse engineered schematic for the Channel F II as well but I only have Luxor and SABA versions of the second generation - which are the same apart from video output, that obviously work anyway so it's not interesting.
If you want to pay shipping back and forth to Sweden (motherboard would be enough) I'm very likely to be able to send back a working board unless it's the custom 40pin chip FCMxxxx, not sure I have working versions of those - they need to be pulled from another board. Not really available on the free market.
It might be cheaper than finding a commercial electronics repair-guy that might be helped by this information and the schematic.
The UK Grandstand boards usually have all chips soldered but the 3850 CPU, they rarely suffer from these sort of problems.
If you can make sure chips are working you could desolder sockets and solder the chips directly on the board to better future proof the functionality.
Swapping the two 5V/12V capacitors could also be a good idea if soldering work is done to it. -
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It's attached with two raised section, they are glued. You need to bend them loose.
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If it's the first version:
Remove all the small screws along the edge of the shielding (you may haveUnhook and pull out the RF cable
Remove the metal cover over the cartridge holder (if any).
Unscrew the cartridge holder
Unplug power connectorCarefully pull the cartridge flat cables out of the connectors
Unplug power connector from the inside of the shielding to be able to remove top of the shielding
Unhook controller connectors
The you need to unsolder the grounding braids
You may have another screw in the upper left corner holding the PCB down
Unscrew the heatsink for the 5V regulator to be able to lift the PCB out
I think that's it
Easy peasy.
The Channel F II is easier but you have to break loose the eject button to be able to remove top shell of shield. -
I'd start by reseating/cleaning the pins of the 40pin chips that are in sockets.
That's the CPU and ROMs (or PSU:s as they were called). -
Nice work!
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"87asc" isn't that the buyer of the only known boxed, so he's selling it now?
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I understand it as it helps confirming the current seller knows what the last one sold for and possibly also that a box raises the value...
There's completely blank boxes with other carts now and then.
If it was out there for the same price as a regular cart it would have been easier for me to believe it was a "real" box.
Nothing really ties the box to the cartridge - but I admit it would be a bit odd if it was delivered completely without packaging, a clean white box seems valid.A Democart 2 might sell for just as much no matter if there's a box or not.
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2 hours ago, atari2600land said:Democart #2 on eBay right now for $1800. (barf.)
ALL future Democart 2 will have a box in the future... the white boxes aren't that hard to find.
Maybe an edge label from a Zircon reused Democart will find its way onto a box as well. Imagine that price...
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1 hour ago, zezba9000 said:I'm just confirming you still have them before I send money via PayPal etc.Got it, you're on the list.
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Yup, eBay is good for older components, there's going to be stock for a long time - some will be more expensive though. I was getting some SOIC 74LS156 earlier this year, those are not cents each but dollars.
Stealing from broken electronics is always an alternative I guess.
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Posted
Sorry, you're right, I should check my data.