Mindfield

Yeah, they used to sell all kinds of stuff. Game consoles -- NES, SMS, 2600, 5200, XEGS, even those old Tomy robots. They also had software for Atari 8-bit, C64, 2600/5200, etc. They had a sort of unique way of preventing theft, I recall; all game boxes were in rows on an aisle partition, each row encased in plastic, each box in its own place. Below each box was fastened a metal ring that hung below holes cut out of the plastic casing, and on the ring was a pad of tickets that identified the game it was attached to. You'd take a ticket to the checkout, pay for it, then go over to a special section sealed off much like Fort Knox, hand the guy behind the counter your ticket, then he'd go and hunt down the game and slip it under the tiny bank-teller slit in the window. (Items that were too large, too bulky, or too numerous to slip under were usually handed to you at the side entrance to the booth) I haven't been in a Toys "R" us since those days, so I don't know how they do such things, if they even still handle video games. Oh, and Radio Shack in Canada doesn't have Atari stuff at all...

Yep. Notice they're holding the joystick the wrong way? :-)

For me, it started when I was a kid and struck a rather remarkable interest in computers and video games. I wanted a PET 'cos we used them in school back in the late 70s, and I had a friend who had one back in grade 4 I think. (At the time those things cost $2,000) 'Course, those things were far beyond the means of my parents. I'd been to arcades at the time and enjoyed playing them when I was able to. It wasn't until around 1983 that I got my first system: A colecovision, bought second hand from mutual friends. At the time it cost my dad $300, but it came with 3 games and the driving controller, so I was happy. I collected a couple more games for it over the next year or so, but then got a 2600 - actually, a Coleco Gemini, as I'd become bored with the CV. For the longest time I only had the one game for the Gemini: Donkey Kong, the pack-in game. Still, I played it endlessly, and eventually got about three other games for it. (Mousetrap, a Spike's Peak/Ghost Manor Xonox double-ender, and one other I can't remember.) Then we moved. We'd packed up everything in boxes and, when we ran out of boxes, green garbage bags. Unfortunately, one bag in particular, that which contained my Gemini and Colecovision, got confused with some actual garbage and was tossed out. I was quite distraught about it. However, for my birthday, our new neighbours -- friends of ours and the people we shared a townhouse with -- gave me a rather remarkable gift separated into three rather sizeable boxes. In the first, the largest, was a complete heavy sixer -- wonderful woodgrain and all. In the remaining two boxes were two plastic cartrige holders, each of which held 16 cartriges (two columns of 8 carts), and each of which was full. Packed with games, from the boring (Golf, Football, Video Poker) to the wierd (Beanie Bopper, Lost Luggage) to the bad (Pac Man) to the wonderful (Pitfall, Pitfall II -- too numerous to mention, in fact). They were all loose -- no boxes or manuals -- but I didn't care. I loved 'em all. Shortly after that I'd discovered Toys "R" Us, and made it a weekly ritual to take the $10 a week in allowance I recieved from my dad and go and buy a game. I did this for about a year, amassing over 80 carts. I missed out on many simply because they were out of my budget, but I got loads of the cheap ones. I even bought all three of the famed and greatly reviled Mythicon games. (Firefly, Sorcerer and Firefox) Eventually I sold it all when I moved on to Atari computers ... I sort of regret that, now, since I wasn't selling it all off to get anything new. I just didn't want it anymore. Now I want it back. :-)

I don't know if LGD has it, but my FTP site does. (I dumped it myself) Feel free to grab it. It's in the /utils/good dumps/ dir (until I finish my dumps, at which time they'll get moved) I also have a dump of Big Business, but I haven't gotten it working yet, so for now it's a bad dump... :-P (NOTE: If using a browser to access my site and it asks for a password, enter "archive" ... dunno why it does that for some directories) [ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

All you need do is write the disk image out to a 3.5" PC floppy disk and it'll work. (In standard 360k or 720k formats, the disk formats are identical, so can be exchanged freely between PC and ST. Note that this is not true for disks formatted using special techniques -- Twisted formats, for example, or for disks using extended formats with more than 80 tracks or more than 9 sectors per track)

For me, it's: - My fiancee who, despite not sharing my computer-oriented habits, nevertheless gracefully supports them in all their many facets - Copious amounts of caffeine in a variety of liquids -- mostly coffee - Nicotine (Currently on the decline) - Web surfing -- mostly emulation sites - Anything emulatable, Atari in particular - Writing music, doing artwork, anything creative - FPS games (Max Payne rocks, even if it's buggy) - Good ol' fashioned home cookin' - Any and all nostalgic computer stuff - The constant compulsion to upgrade my computer, despite not quite being able to afford it :-) - Work. No, scratch that: money, which unfortunately is only acquired through work. Eventually I'll be adding "Furiously collecting Atari equipment and carts/software."

Proto ROMs would be a great idea, yeah. I dunno about the idea of included hardware (carts) flying, if only due to the production costs involved versus the potential revenue generated from it. But the next best thing would be reasonable to me -- included ROMs with pictures and background information. That'd be cool.

That sort of depends; is this only of Activision titles, or is this one of those fantasy, anything goes, wish-list kinda thing? If it's the latter, well, let's see. I think I'd like to see an innovators compilation; a collection of games (repleat with historical notes, perhaps interviews or biographies on the authors, that sort of thing) that brought something fresh and new and never before seen on the console. For example, Tunnel Runner, one of my VCS faves, was the first and perhaps even the only 3D, first-person maze-type game I'd ever seen on the VCS. I hadn't seen the like before or since on that particular platform. That'd be a rather cool collection to put together, as it'd have plenty of unique titles you just don't see in the average compilation. Oh, and old commercials. *must* have old commercials -- radio, television, print ads... the works. As for what else I'd like to see in such a package ... well, as I said, historical information would be great -- video clips would be cool. Maybe a bit of paraphenalia -- a nice Atari sticker, or a keychain or something, would be a nice addition. Something you can take with you, as it were. :-) Or maybe make replicas of the original manuals (depending, of course, on how many games are included in the package :-) And personally, I'd rather like to see it packaged in an authentic-looking Atari box (or an authentic box in the style of one of the game companies represented in the collection -- say, Activision, for example :-) Yeah, I'd buy that. I'm still gonna buy the Atari Anniversary Collection, even though I'm not really that impressed with what comes on it. In fact, I mainly want the Atari sticker. :-) [ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

I remember reading a while back an interview with Roberta Williams (who, with husband Ken, founded Sierra On-Line and, subsequently, the highly popular King's Quest franchise) that touched upon this very subject. When asked about whether there were differences in the sort of games that appealed to females as compared to males, she said: quote: I think there are dramatic differences between male and female gamers. This is 'generally speaking,' though - not necessarily in specific cases. Generally, men like games with more action - especially violet action, games with more hand-eye coordination, and games with lots and lots of strategy. Women tend to like games with more story, more character development, and more interaction with characters, games with solving puzzles, games involving the brain rather than the hand, games with a more social aspect, and, surprisingly, with hand-eye coordination games, women seem to like those types which have 'gathering' aspects to them, a good example being 'Tetris.' (Full text of this interview can be found at http://www.womengamers.com/interviews/roberta.html) Oddly enough, and somewhat contrary to what Roberta said in this interview, my fiancee absolutely loves linear target shooting games -- House of the Dead, Virtua Cop, things like that. I think much of that is because the linearity makes them easy to learn, and the target shooting aspect makes good use of hand-eye coordination. She also does like the odd adventure game. She got right into Phantasy Star on the Sega Master System. And of course like most people, she loves relatively simplistic games like Pac Man and kin.

Well, I never said the case would get thrown out of court -- certainly it would get its due consideration. I merely meant that a company's credibility would be called into question when they have historically failed to prevent the very same actions they would now be pressing suit for. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, a company who did not vigorously work to protect their intellectual property could risk losing it at the discretion of a judge should the matter be brought before the bench, citing past inaction as a reason for deciding in favour of the defendant(s) merely to prove a point or to make an example. Don't get me wrong, I have no illusions that the likes of Activision could press suit and in all likelihood win by sheer force of will should they so choose, but the chance still exists that the wrong judge would be sitting on the bench one day, in a foul mood because someone had gone and starched his robe, and, just to make an example, rule in favour of the defendant(s) because Activision's lack of such action in the past has shown a lack of interest in protecting their intellectual properties and, therefore, shows that they have no interest in retaining the rights to them. Or perhaps, at the very least, he would dismiss the case; the starch was light. (Sorry, Ken ... your presence here simply brings Activision readily to mind as an example. :-) And no, I'm no lawyer and so have no significant legal expertise upon which to base a solid legal argument, but I am familiar enough with general law to have an idea how it works. I know judges have the poewr to decide a case in either direction based on evidence and circumstance, and in a case such as this, while there is clear violation of copyright law, there is a history of inaction in pursuing past such opportunities to protect their property, which shows a lack of interest in protecting that property. To a judge, either you're interested in enforcing a law, or you're not. There's no gray area; you can't selectively enforce a law just because one person in particular twisted your knickers the wrong way for whatever reason. Well, I mean, you can, of course, but doesn't foster much confidence in the argument that you're really cheesed at the copyright violation if you've pursued it in this one case, but none of the others.

No, but then we go back to Activision's historical lack of anything having been done about the distribution of ROM images in the past. That they have done nothing in the past is likely to hurt their credibility if they ever tried to do something about it now. Pretty well any judge would take a dim view of a company who tried to stop such a thing now when they have already let it go on for so long. As you said, any such action would pretty well have to be symbolic, because it would have a slim chance of succeeding given the company's lack of past action clearly displaying their similar lack of interest in protecting their aging properties. Certainly it's still all about copyright violation, but as has already been said, a company or individual that does not vigorously pursue its copyrights risks losing them in a confrontation over them. That of course doesn't mean that they will, only that it is a very real possibility. The biggest thing any such company or individual has going for them in such a court case is that the individual(s) they are pressing suit against probably don't have the kind of financial resources they do to pay the requisite legal fees to see the case to completion. Unfortunately, for most individuals, this is most likely the case. [ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

It wouldn't get rid of 'em. All those hawkers of "Ultra Super Mind-Numbingly Rare Barnstorming Cartrige!" carts just wanna make the unsuspecting bidders think they're getting a great deal at a starting bid of only $20. At least most of the O'Shea's cons are gone 'cos they know it won't work, but you'll always have someone charging way too much for a cart for reasons that are little better than that there's a clear-as-day bust of Elvis on the label formed by Actiplaque...

[This space intentionally left blank ... on account of I accidentally posted twice. Oops...] [ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

quote Granted, but intent is always difficult to prove in a court of law. However, he does have in his favour the fact that he is not charging money for his project, which in itself goes a long way towards proving a benign intent. He also mentions on his own website for the project that it is his project, and though nowhere does he mention that neither he nor his project have any direct or indirect affilliation with Atari, neither does he make any direct connection to Atari. If he were to add a disclaimer to his page then perhaps that might also be beneficial. quote That's a little different though. I'm certain there were royalties and/or licensing fees involved. Take a look at the homebrew sequel to Yar's Revenge; Infogrames ordered that he change the name of the game so as to eliminate any reference to an Atari property, or any seeming affiliation to Atari with regards to the project. Then, too, we can also look to the present issue with AtariLabs.com and Infogrames' demands to hand the domain over to them. All things considered, the climate at the new Atari doesn't appear to be very forgiving when it comes to outside sources infringing on their copyrights when it inconveniences, or has the potential to inconvenience them. quote: I don't see why you can't make a strong resemblance to the Silver2 box without using the actual Atari logos. Here's a link to the cart image I sent in when he was asking for submissions. Airworld label You'll notice that it has all the feel of a Silver2 without using the same fonts, or any reference to Atari, outside of the "Atari 2600" name, which is just to identify the system it's made for. It should, therefore, pass muster except for the issues of the 'Swordquest' name and the use of the (no doubt copyrighted) image (which I believe is also Atari's is it not?). These would need to be solved to pass legal muster. Once again however, and aside from the usage of the Swordquest name and artwork, you are also using the "Atari 2600" box/cart logo. Although its usage is ambiguous, as it both references the system it's designed for, and the company that designed it. Atari are the only ones that make boxes and carts with the writing in that particular style; all other companies, if they even made reference to the system, simply said something to the effect of "For use on Atari 2600 VCS." Additionally, you'll notice on the Atari "Silver" box art that Atari has a ®egistered symbol, and 2600 has a trademark symbol, which leads me to believe that it is being used in reference to the company and its trademarked system name, and not exclusively as an indication of the system it's designed for. quote While they may have no interest in the Swordquest brand name, I would think that at the very least they'd require licensing to use the Atari name and Fuji symbol. That's why Ben Heckendorn removed these references from his VCSp units, so he would avoid potential licensing fees and/or legal issues. As I said, Infogrames, at least at the moment, aren't exactly casting a favourable eye towards Atari fandom. While they're leaving all the emualtion scene and ROM distribution alone, probably due to it being more trouble than its worth to pursue, they do seem to be taking particular umbrage to unlicensed use of the Atari name and logo. I suspect they're a little insecure about their recent decision to bear the Atari mantle, and are fighting to defend their exclusive right to do so to. Whether out of concern for the potential for the name's dilution, or simply because they want to prove that they're actively protecting their interests, I don't know, but in the end it doesn't bode well for hobbyists and fans who want to try and be a tangible part of the Atari legacy. [ 07-28-2001: Message edited by: Mindfield ]

With regard to the Atari properties being used on custom box art, the main issue there is that the Airworld sequel does not actually have anything to do with Atari at all -- except that it will play on two Atari machines, and that it is an unofficial sequel to an unfinished series of Atari games. That the box art bears a striking resemblance to Atari's "Silver2" layout, and contains all the trademarked Atari logos, is simply because the author of Airworld wanted it so, in order to enhance the illusion of reality, as if it were a real sequel to complete the series. Though the author has no intention of actually trying to pass his title off as an Atari release, that's the illusion he wants to present. Even so, Atari would certainly have no intention of okaying the use of copyrighted Atari properties for this purpose as I'm certain it violates half the sections under the current copyright law. (In particular, dilution and misrepresentation of a brand name) They may not particularily care if he were to use the Swordquest name (though they'd never approve it, they probably wouldn't care too much to pursue the matter) they'd certainly take umbrage to the attempt to pass it off as official Atari fare, illusory or not. Still, I maintain that it is small time, and though it is a risk to participate in such activities, it is a calculated risk, and likely one that would bring about little if any retribution in consideration for the nature of the work being not-for-profit. When it comes down to it, it's just one person's fantasy to complete a series that suffered an early death during the crash of the video game industry in '84. Basically I cover this in my Emulation Newbie FAQ, though it says nothing more than has already been discussed here. I do quote the same relevant area of the copyright law as you did.

Oh, it would most definitely work for me, yes. The format mostly doesn't matter; he can just provide the original LW/LWO file (with texture files, if applicable -- and he'll need at least one if he wants to get the simulated woodgrain just right, although I've got numerous shaders that can do more or less the same thing if it came to that) I can convert from there to any number of formats if anyone needs it in a different one. Can he do a joystick, too? Can't have a VCS without _some_ kind of controller, after all. :-) (And the only model of one I ever found was a Wico-lookalike) Mokeman: That would be rather intersting, sure. I can import C4D files and export them to something I can use in Lightwave or RDS/Carrara. (At least I hope I can; 3D Exploration is kinda buggy with some model formats, especially 3DS Max files)

My question with regards to scanning is, exactly where is the line that separates a scan from falling under "fair use" to being an infringement of copyright? I mean, putting aside for the moment the intent of the scan and its free, public availability, of what quality would a scan have to be before it crosses the line of fairness into infringement? For example, you never see any good or even passing quality scans of CD covers available on commercial entertainment websites, be they record companies or music E-vendors. In pretty well every case the scan is miniscule; enough to identify it for what it is, but not enough to do much more, and certainly not enough to reproduce any kind of legible copy. For record companies I imagine this is to prevent piracy both of the CDs they distribute and the covers to go with them. For commercial vendors, I figure this is because any larger or any better and they fear stepping over the boundaries of fair use -- which is also why any audio samples they offer are no longer than 30 seconds, as that falls within fair use regulations. So where does that leave box and cart scans? Even if they are not of the same quality of the originals, and even if the format has changed from cardboard to digital, they are still reproductions in their entirety, the same as if one were to digitally sample an entire album from vinyl or cassette to burn on CD, and so must be subject to the same laws if those boxes themselves and/or the artwork they bore (including trademarked corporate logos) was copyrighted. Even the box I'd worked on for Airworld could be considered infringing because I use the trademarked Swordquest logo, the Atari fuji, and the stylized Atari name. Just a thought...

I sort of gathered that pretty well all 2600 games that have not been released into the public domain or freeware categories are protected by a copyright, though who exactly owns many of them has probably been long lost in the annals of time like many a prototype. That of course still doesn't make them fair game, but it does likely mean that distributing them won't in all probability bring about any kind of legal retribution. There are quite possibly some companies who could and may still do something about it, but I'm of the opinion that while retrogaming, and the VCS in particular, is quite popular at the moment, it would still be more trouble than it's actually worth to defend a copyright. While for a large company the legal fees wouldn't be prohibitive, it would still be a waste of resources, and for individuals, it just wouldn't be worth the time and expense. Personally, if I'd written a few VCS games back in the day, I really wouldn't care if they were distributed in ROM form; in fact, I'd be happy to see the legacy kept alive by fans who truly enjoy it. It would be a mark of some distinction for me to know that something I did 20 or so years ago still survives and is used to this day. Hell, its commercial value has long since passed, so why would I want to jealously guard a copyright that I have no hope of ever again benefitting from? It just wouldn't make sense for me to spend time and money preventing someone from 'stealing' something that's no longer worth anything to me. But that's just me, and this is all just my opinion.

Isn't there a statute of limitations on intellectual property? Something like 80 years or somesuch? I do know that an artistic work, such as pieces of music, has a statute of limitations. Classical works -- Beethoven, Bach, Handel, etc. -- are public domain -- or at least royalty-free, as evidenced by the volume of classical music CDs performed by a litany of different symphony orchestras. Many works by long-dead authors, such as Mark Twain, T.S. Elliot, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Mary Shelly, etc. are also freely distributable in electronic form. Heck, you can go and download Alice in Wonderland from practically any E-Book-related website. This, because IIRC, the statute of limitations on the copyrights of their works has expired. Of course, these were all copyrighted during a time when the limitation was expected to more than cover the life of the holder, thus protecting his or her financial interest in the work for however long he lived. In all likelihood, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act ammended this to account for more modern prusuits where copyrights were expected to cover the life of a company and not an individual, and so don't expire so long as there is an entity to pass the copyright on to. But the DMCA was created in the late 90s, and wouldn't apply to old Atari ROMs, so I'm speculating that perhaps things are different in that regard. Is there a difference between an individual copyrighting a work and a corporation?

Now that would be quite nice. :-) Let me know how that works out for you. I haven't got a real VCS (yet) by which to measure, besides which, I doubt I really have the patience to actually sit down and model it even if I did. :-)

Malix: The whole thing was rendered in Ray Dream Studio 4 with some simple pre-made shaders and textures. The sofa, table and porcelain coyote models were nicked from a 3D model page. The curved wall is just a simple preset, with a brushed chrome shader added. The Atari symbol I grabbed when someone elsewhere on these boards mentioned their existence on another page. (Sorry, I can't remember which one :-/) I should make some changes, tho... like actual turbulence in the water, so the shadows actually fall on it properly, and it hits the walls properly, instead of flat. Or maybe I'll just make a realistic room. :-) atari70s: Actually I'd love to have a room like that. Y'know, of course, with more stuff in it... and nicer upholstery ... but the big Atari logo is a must. :-)

Nice pic -- haven't seen that one -- but actually I was hoping to get the actual models for use in a modelling program. (I'd *love* to get the one used to render that pic :-) Thanks anyway, though -- that'd make some nice wallpaper. :-)

Actually I'm rather interested in this book. I've done my share of programming back in the day, but strictly for 8 and 16-bit machines, and my assembler knowledge was limited to 6502 and some basic 80x86. Still, I loved assembler for its cryptic, yet simplistic and powerful style. I'm rather interested in maybe taking a poke at 2600 programming, just for the challenge of working with a primitive system that had virtually no RAM in which to store anything. :-) Out of curiosity, is there anything in this book that would touch upon bank switching techniques? It'd be cool enough to write a relatively simple 4k game, but it'd be wonderful to take what one could learn from that and expand upon it by making a larger, more robust game using more addressing space.

...anyone know where some can be found? Any old hardware is cool, but a VCS is what I'm looking for right now. Pretty well any format is acceptable (LightWave, Max, 3DS, Maya, etc.) No SHP files though; I don't have anything that even knows what those are... This is probably a long shot but what the heck. I've already scanned my usual model-site haunts, but the closest thing I could find was a detailed 3D model replica of an Amiga... :-/

That machine at the bottom of the page? Bar-top strip poker. :-)