JamesD

I don't mean to be argumentative but do you guys really think that's what Atari would have done if *they* had updated the chipset? Lets see... what was in development... an advanced sound chip that they even had singing (supposedly) and it had how many voices? And what did the most famous Atari engineer go on do develop? The Amiga. You don't hesitate to talk about adding on a graphics board that would cost more and be more complex than what I suggested. You also praise the C64 Joystick and it adds a bitmapped 256 color mode with a blitter. Yet someone suggests that be done on the Atari and it's blasphemy. The reason for the character based Atari graphics modes and ability to change the color palette on the fly with a coprocessor in the first place was the price of RAM. Anything that reduced RAM requirements but improved the graphics meant a lower price for the capability. Raster based arcade machines with simple blitters already existed when the Atari 8 bit chipset was created so it was definitely possible at the time and some of the Atari engineers that designed the 8 bits probably designed some of those arcade machines. Say whatever you want, what you propose is not what Atari would have done. Would that have enhanced some existing modes? Probably. The already demonstrated that with the later models. But double the resolution of a character based graphics mode? You run out of characters the generator can use to put different things on the screen in a hurry. Twice the horizontal and twice the vertical takes 4 times the number of characters on the display. At some point the savings once created by the character modes actually works against you. Is it good experience to have to work within such a restrictive environment? Certainly. You learn a lot more when you are under tight restrictions because you can't get away with as much and you have to do whatever you can to get more out of the machine. But does that mean it wouldn't be an Atari if it adds bitmapped graphics modes like I proposed? The coprocessor could still change the palette on the fly, turning a 16 color mode into a hundreds of colors mode. Player missiles would still exist but with more colors and some hardware to move the data around quicker without bogging down the CPU. The sound chip would just be upgraded to two pokeys (already been done) but with stereo DAC so sound samples are easy to play. Common technology from the time and a D/A converter could even be implemented with a bunch of resistors. A timer or DMA to drive them without eating cpu time? DMA was the thing on the Amiga and boy have I heard a lot of people here say it was the real replacement for the Atari 8 bits rather than the ST. I guess I just don't get it.

Nope, that's why I said isolate the two. The buffer keeps the chips from stealing more than 1 clock cycle for reads or writes on the fast buss but makes the buss timing look like 1.7MHz to the custom chips... *if* that doesn't cause problems anyway. The entire machine could fit on an FPGA now. I think the best thing would be to have the chips start up in compatibility mode and then a write to an unused register location switches them to native mode to access whatever you want. Instead of extending a whole bunch of old modes you would be better off having more usable bit mapped ones with alterable width, height and color dept attributes. Let those attributes be based on existing timing circuits the chip already needs. That would mean same width as an existing mode and double width. More than that and the FPGA gets too complex and it's too slow to push the graphics around anyway. I'd leave height to NTSC and PAL. Color depth... 16 color or 256 color. They use the same bytes per page but 256 at half the resolution. It keeps the timing circuits simple. Add 256 color player/missiles in any mode (making it easier to hack existing games for more colors) and a 4096 color palette to chose from. Add a blitter to write from anywhere in memory to the screen, to/from player/missile buffers or to scroll the screen around. But that's just off the top of my head. Once you start running at a decent MHz and have a certain amount of RAM a lot of the modes that once made sense just aren't practical anymore and they are more difficult to program for than standard bitmapped graphics. I would add another Pokey but I'd also add an 8 bit D/A converter or two to simplify output of real sounds. Possibly DMA driven or with a programmable timer so it's easy to output to them at regular intervals.

Well, doesn't the 65816 have illegal instruction traps in place of undocumented ones? That could be bad for running some games. Unless it's only when in native mode anyway. Too bad the extensions differ from one version to the next and you can't count on them to be on all the versions. I have to agree with you there. It think it should use the existing OS as is. To use the new features you'd just need to load software that switches to native mode. If the standard ROMs could be banked out for FLASH a custom OS could be put in it's place. If it's like some of the DTV (joystick C64) models then the OS was flashable. The 65816 borrows a few tricks from the 6809 but it still has a few more limitations... not that the 6809 doesn't have it's own. The 6309 was even nicer than the 6809.

If you want to interface the 65816 to the slow system or the slow custom chips to fast RAM you need to design an interface that isolates the two. It's not difficult to do either way. For the slow custom chips on the fast buss: READS - latch the data from the fast RAM at the rising edge of the slow clock and hold it till the falling edge of the slow clock. Takes 1 fast clock cycle. WRITES - latch the date from the slow chip and hold it till the falling edge of the slow clock, then write it to fast RAM. Takes 1 fast clock. It *could* be on the rising edge or anywhere in the slow clock cycle if needed but I think making it appear to take place on the last clock insures the chips are done. Handshaking with the CPU would need to be modified accordingly and it may have some undesirable effects. The chipset has to appear to be busy for all those clocks where access is pending... something that may not have existed before. However all CPU accesses to RAM are fast. The interface would also translate memory addresses from the slow memory to the 24 bit memory model so expanded RAM is the same on both sides of the interface. The clock speed would have to be a multiple of the standard clock speed so the rising/falling edges of the slow and fast buss would match. *IF* the fast buss was fast enough that the next fast clock would take place before custom chips expect the data to be valid, then unmatched speeds would be ok for the custom chips. The CPU will experience wait states if it ever reads from the custom chips so replacing the chipset with a compatible one that interfaces at a higher clock speed would be important for maximum speed. At least I think that's how it would work.

FWIW, Western Design Center created the 65816. They currently mention 400MHz but don't sell a 400MHz part. I'm guessing it's a licensed core in an ASIC that achieved that speed. The fastest they sell last I checked was 16MHz... but many of those parts have been overclocked at up to 24MHz without problems. (A 400MHz Atari... Yikes!) That's not entirely true. The CPU has to slow down whenever it accesses regular system memory and the custom chips don't have access anything but standard RAM so some things would be the same speed. Address lines are also multiplexed on the 65816 so it can't access existing memory expansions without slowing down since they wouldn't be it it's memory map unless you redesigned the custom chips. Any access to old RAM/hardware would run at standard speeds. You could manipulate DATA in fast memory and then dump the result to the screen and that would make it faster. The buss is already 16 bits on the 6502. If it were 8 you'd have access to 256 bytes of RAM... but I guess it would be fast since everything would be in Page 0. FWIW the 65816 extends it to 24 bits and real 16 bit CPUs typically have 24 to 32 bits but the instruction sets often handle 32 bit addresses. The 65816 may deal with some 16 bit numbers but other than memory handling and the combined A-B register it's still pretty much an 8 bit CPU. It is a big improvement on the 6502 but don't expect miracles. Try out an Apple IIgs. Still slower than similar clocked 68000s. The easiest thing to do would be to isolate the old 16 bit buss and the buss of the 65816. Run it at a multiple of the normal system clock (8x or 16x as fast) and keep any areas not accessed by the custom chips mapped to the fast RAM. Page 0, the stack... everything runs at full speed until you have to access old RAM or hardware. It would also need a software selectable high/normal speed select to insure full compatibility. It wouldn't be quite as fast as a total redo but a redesign of the custom chips isn't required. Well, it wouldn't be a "true Atari" but only because it's not built by Atari.

Part of the problem with discussion is the original question. You seem to have people either going the "known for" route or "pushes the platform to it's limit" route. First of all, I think both qualify as far as "landmark title" goes. But neither title may meet all the criteria. Star Raiders probably didn't push the platform to it's limit but the machine is definitely known for it and it was probably one of if not the top seller on the machine. It's still being talked about today. Alternate Reality: The City definitely pushes the chipset to the limit... but I don't think the machine is "known for" it. I certainly haven't seen any articles dedicated to it beyond old reviews and it's available for several machines. I think it was actually more popular on the C64.

Most of the games I played never ended, they just kept upping the difficulty till you died. I do remember rolling over the score on MegaBug (CoCo) and solving some adventure games but I can't remember which ones. The first game memorable enough to remember finishing was Tomb Raider. I played most of the way through Tomb Raider II and then the laptop it was on died and I haven't felt like doing it over. I played through a bunch of PS1 games. Final Fantasy 9... finished it on an emulator and it was neat but the turn based battle system is torture. Parasite Eve... I think I finished it. Dino Crisis... ditto. Silent Hill... can't remember Parasite Eve II... The adventure games were so so... just BASIC stuff and didn't last long enough. Worth it? No. Rolling over the score on a game is cool when it happens but it's short lived. Solving Tomb Raider? Yeah, it was worth it. There was a lot of neat stuff (for the time) along the way and it wasn't too repetitive. I even went back through and played it again to try and find things I'd missed the first time. I might buy the anniversary one once the price drops. PS1 games... better than boredom and under $10 each. Reading through the cut scenes and the slowwwww turn based battle systems bugged me but there was some emotional content to some of the story lines like in FF9 that made it worth it. I solved Half Life 2 and it was kinda cool. Seemed to go on forever but it was more predictable than Tomb Raider. The followup was way too short! Glad I didn't spend full price. I think I'm still working on Half Life but I got it after part II.

FWIW... aside from Star Raiders I'd have to say reputation (games) was the attraction of the machine rather than any particular title. Just look at the comments here... Star Raiders or <pick 1 of 1000s>. Some of the games mentioned sold a tiny fraction of the numbers that Star Raiders did and a few I have never even heard of. If you look at what's on ebay (what people actually bought) the most common titles are Star Raiders and arcade ports like Pac Man, Defender, Donkey Kong, etc...

I think people ignore emo kids. They aren't so far from the norm that they bother most people. Goth on the other hand... gets some odd looks.

Check MSX websites for info on the video output. They seem to mod their systems a lot more than Ti people.

While it was known for many titles I think the landmark title it was known for the most was definitely Star Raiders. No other game drew so much press and if you look at the articles still being printed nothing else Atari specific comes close. Also, if you look at eBay auctions you'll find that it was part of almost everyone's game library back then... obviously a "must have" title then and it still is. PacMan has probably had more press as a whole but I think it rarely focuses on the Atari 8 bits. Game industry wise it probably had the most influence and was the most cloned game.

Satan's Hollow doesn't play quite to same as Phoenix. It's a great game but just not quite the same.

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Actually, I *think* Phoenix uses a variation of the hardware that Wizard of Wor had according to some info I read. It had simple DMA to draw to the screen and hardware overlay of a 2nd playfield for the stars. I *thought* it was bitmapped graphics but I could be wrong.

I remember seeing Star Raiders and then trying to program something similar in BASIC on a TRS-80 Model 1. I think that was the most cloned game of the time.

Well... it's not an Atari but it was my first computer. A TRS-80 Color Computer 1 Rev D (or E?) motherboard, 64K I installed myself (my first hardware mod), Extended Color Basic, composite video out, heatsink on the SAM chip, 6309 CPU, internal audio amp/speaker/volume control, front reset button, after market keyboard, serial to parallel adapter, expansion interface, stereo sound pack, RS232 pack, Speech and Sound Cart, etc... I had a 128K upgrade partially built (hadn't bought RAM yet)... but then I switched to the Amiga and didn't look at another 8 bit for years. Most of the internal mods were done when I was in high school. Not bad for a kid. Other than that would have to be the software I wrote. I impressed a few people with the BASIC stuff I did. Sadly, none of my assembly disks were recoverable. I didn't buy an Atari until just a couple years ago.

SDCC is pretty decent to modify. I've spent some time working on a 6809 code generator and it seems much more straightforward than other compilers I've messed with. It's also pretty easy to setup the peephole optimizer for a new target. If you want to add a peephole optimizer to a new compiler I'd steal that one.

After doing some looking around... Based on ebay auctions I've seen in Europe, I think VTech named one computer in the US IQ Unlimited and a kids learning computer in Europe that looked like a laptop IQ Unlimited (or Unlimited IQ). The latter had a different name in the US and WAS based on the Laser 128. It's the cartridge based system I mentioned. The US IQ Unlimited was probably based on the same hardware as the Socrates learning computer. It appeared to be an attempt at rehashing the Plus/4 concept of a machine with built in software. The only machines to succeed that did that were early laptops. Still, I'm sure thousands of them sold or they couldn't have run that infomercial so long. I don't think any of VTech's machines successful enough to stick around long. VTech seems to crank out some sort of consumer or learning computer every few years. I think all Asian companies that tried to enter the US market made the same mistake. 'Here's the computer now you are on your own.' I think Apple and Tandy survived because of their base of computer stores.

I'm not even sure if there was a video rental place where I grew up until after I graduated from high school. VCRs were still those huge top loading things. The first small ones were just being introduced and they were way too expensive for most people. My parents didn't have a VCR until I gave them one sometime in the late 80s.

Tandy CoCo 3 - My first computer was a CoCo 1 which was pretty fun to program and this machine is even better. Standard memory up to 512K or after market up into the multi MB range. 1.7MHz 6809 CPU can be upgraded to 6309 which is up to 30% faster. Excellent graphics, meager sound without an upgrade though. Apple IIgs - I spent a lot of time on the Apple II+. This runs most of the old software and adds a lot of cool stuff. The music and graphics capabilities are the best of any 8 bit. The external keyboard, mouse and GUI are pretty nice too. I just don't like the 65816 as much as the 6809 or it might get top honors. Certainly one of the easiest to expand and upgrade. Atari 130XE - The 1200 keyboard is better and it looks nicer than the 130 but the 130 is very expandable. Next three: The Sinclair +2 or +3, Plus/4 (very underrated), and the Commodore 128D.

If you look at MySQL you'll see that a lot of what makes it large isn't absolutely required. Stuff like cache and other performance related additions could be stripped out. SQL offers some fairly complex operations. Queries would be easy as long as the results aren't too big but then you need join and some other features that suck memory if you have much of a database.

Do me a favor, put me on your ignore list. From your link: Many national retailers do seem to be on board and have shown steady improvement. From 69% down to 35% is significant. But this goes to my comment about R rated movies. The kids know where to buy them so they will just buy from the stores that sell to them. 63% of the time means 100% of the time at some stores. Best Buy may need train their employees better but overall they aren't the biggest problem.

If memory serves, the PC4 and PC5 were small laptops similar to the Tandy 100. They were marketed to schools at some point so that each kid could have a machine. There's a company in Florida that still sells them, parts for them and obviously must support some schools in the state. I have a PC4 somewhere but I don't see it as a general purpose laptop like some other machines from that time. Most annoying was how it would lose memory contents if you plug or unplug the external power... something like that anyway. Very little memory but it has a "Spreadsheet", "Word Processor", BASIC and something else. The IQ Unlimited has to be more powerfull than the PC4/PC5.

Actually, some of their kids pre-computer models that had cartridges were actually a modified Laser 128 but I think this model was a newer design.

If it's the machine I'm thinking of... I've never seen one sell for over $10 on ebay. Most go unsold. It is NOT a kids computer. It could be used with or without an external display and included built in software (see the auction below). To the best of my knowledge there was never a 3rd party software or hardware market for the machine. It was sold direct via infomercial and the paid celebrity that was in the adds was Tom Bosley, "Mr. C" of Happy Days. I'm pretty sure I ran across a web page that said it had a 68000 cpu and supported 256 colors onscreen but I can't verify that. Is this the same machine? http://cgi.ebay.com/I-Q-UNLIMITED-COMPUTER...8QQcmdZViewItem