DracIsBack

Ahh Water Ski and Ninja Golf. I don't like either game very much. Water Ski has bad graphics, is too hard to control, too difficult and too boring. It has decent collector value. Ninja Golf - very good graphics, very bad sad, extremely repetitive after a while. Better than Water Ski but I didn't enjoy it as much as - say - Scrapyard Dog or Midnight Mutants. Nice graphics though! To be honest, I also found that Froggo's TANK COMMAND was a sad little game too. The graphics looked fine in the old Atarian review, but it's kinda like the old Spider-Man cartoon: you go by the same landscape OVER and OVEr and OVER again.

These choices are all good ones. My top couple: 1) RCA video out and audio out. Let's get the ability to connect to the RCA jacks on TVs and VCRs like almost everything else. 2) Stronger video signal. Get rid of the fuzzies in the screen. 3) Standard power supply. 4) sturdier buttons (ie. PAUSE) 5) Smaller size. It would be cool to have a portable 7800 even! Since this board reformatted, I can no longer login as MarkR7800Fan, so I've gone back to DracIsBack for all postings.

You know, I have to partially agree with you. I was all excited when i saw that Atari was releasing joypad controllers and was pleased to have gotten two of them in. I actually find them hard to use and somewhat less accurate for games that require really accurate control. My SCRAPYARD DOG woes almost vanished when I went back to using a regular Proline. The Proline is indeed an acquired taste (people who grib their joysticks will never like it but those that learn to tap will get the hang of it) but far more accurate than the pads. I've actually taken the pads off of my 7800 and put them on my XE. :-) Still - I maintain that your pad may be broken. Mine works fine with NINJA GOLF.

John: thanks for te tip - it worked beautifully. I made it all the way to the end and got stopped by the SPECIAL CHALLENGE. :-) I won't give it away for those who haven't made it but let's just say that it's a stark change of pace. I wonder if it's randomly generated. Anyway - thanks for the tip. I was able to pass it and get some information for a review of the game. Cheers!

quote: Originally posted by MacGurl: So we have an Atari 7800 on the way...a system which I've never played. Are there any awesome games we should be on the lookout for? Games to look out for: Ballblazer Tower Toppler Xenophobe Robotron 2084 Xevious Ms. Pac Man Scrapyard Dog Midnight Mutants Commando Ikari Warriors Alien Brigade Avoid Karateka if you can. Ithe 7800 version arguably th worst martial arts game ever released on any system. The XE version is much, MUCH better. Mean 18 is good if you like golf games. The graphics are nice.

quote: Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie: I haven't made it there yet, but make sure there aren't warp pipes that can be used to evade the jump. That happens sometimes. I know you are not stupid, but I just wanted to tell you that! Cousin Vinnie Vinnie: there are no warp pipes where I'm at. I literally can't get three feet into the level. There's a pipe (you can't use this one to warp), two platforms and then one bugger of a jump that I just can't seem to make. :-(

quote: Originally posted by zraider: At the risk of sounding really stupid, why would anyone who doesn't already own a 2600 get one over a 7800 when the 7800 can use both carts ? I'm not that familiar with either system so forgive my stupidity, but I just don't see getting a 2600 unless there are some advantages that aren't that obvious. Probably the collectability factor. There are a few 2600 games and peripherals that don't work on some 7800s but not enough to justify getting a 2600 seperately in most cases.

I recently got back into playing SCRAPYARD DOG. Quite a well-put together little game. It can be quite hard, though. Right now, i'm stock on sewer level 5-3. When you first get into the level, there's this brutal jump you have to make. There's a sewer tube, two little platforms side by side and then this big. BIG gap with a lot of open sewer and another sewer tube quite a piece away. I just blew 12 lives and three continues (and almost put my fist through the 7800) trying to make this bloody jump. Does anyone have any tips?

Gunstar: I agree with your points. Hindsight is always 20 20. The 7800 wasn't really old technology. The 7800 was developed in 1983-4. So was the NES (in Japan) and the SMS (as the Mark 3).Nintendo released the system in Japan first, Tramiel left the 7800 on the shelf. I do think the Tramiels bunged themselved up by not quickly adapting. They released the 7800 in 1986. It wasn't until 1988 when they started using 1 megabit cartridges and until 1989/90 when they started really releasing NES style games. As soon as they saw Nintendo making all that cash in 1986, I think they should have focused on making games like that for the 7800 rather than telling developers to be cheap until 1988-9.

quote: Originally posted by KAZ: So if the "tramiels" let programmers make cartridges bigger (ram, rom, whatever)... what was the biggest game then? It terms of ram size. And if you take the biggest made Atari 7800 cartridge, would any Nintendo cartridges still be bigger than that? Thanks, it will be important to me once I start collecting for the Atari 7800 to know what the bigger carts are. The initial Atari 7800 games were 16k and 32K. Atari's releases in 1987 featured a few 48K games. In 1988, they began released 128K titles. IIRC, Dark Chambers, Impossible Mission, Summer Games and Winter Games were the first 128K games. Other titles that Atari made in that size were Scrapyard Dog, Midnight Mutants, Fatal Run, Commando, Ikari Warriors, Xenophobe, Jinks, Ninja Golf and Basketbrawl. These are what I call the NES-Style titles. While they don't match the best NES games in terms of "fun factor", they do look similar to games found on the NES and SMS. They (in some cases) feature scrolling levels, cut scenes, music, bosses etc. There are also a lot of 7800 titles that are apparently 128K but you wonder what they did with the space. RealSports Baseball is a good example. The graphics walked off the 2600, there's only a couple of screens in the game and it sucks. The 32K Pete Rose Baseball has much more to it. The largest 7800 games are Alien Brigade and Crossbow. Both are 144K, through Crossbow kinda wastes the space on memory intensive graphics screens that - well - suck. As for Nintendo, they released 128K games early in the NES's life and should be credited for redefining gaming with the titles they introduced. Around 1987, they released the MMC2 which allowed them to squeeze 256K into their carts. Super Mario 3 had 384K, thanks to the MMC 3 chip. IIRC, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Arcade Game was 640K and there were Japanese releases when the NES was finally disappearing that topped 1 megabit. I have no doubt in my mind that the 7800 suffered because the Tramiels were cheap and Warner was short-sighted. Warner assumed that people would want to play Pac-Man and low-memory Commodore 64 games forever and made an initial 7800 library out of "better Pac-Man" and computer ports. Nintendo kicked them in the ass. That was problem number one. Problem number two was that the Tramiels dusted off the 7800 and assumed that games developed around 1984 would hold up against these new Japanese super-games. By the time they clued in and freed the coffers enough to develop games that looked like what Nintendo had when they *FIRST* hit the market, Nintendo owned the market. Like I said, had the Tramiels started with something like SCRAPYARD DOG when they relaunched the 7800 and then developed their own equivilant of the MMC, things may have been better for the 7800. Of course, that would also assume that the Tramiels were willing to shell out the bucks to develop complex games that made use of the MMC chips! in the 7800 tech docs from 1987, they flat out say that using onboard RAM in cartridges was really expensive and generally not acceptable. Cheap, cheap, cheap!

quote: Originally posted by Lastblade: Hehe, very interesting read. Just looking at the games, the NES seems to be more "powerful", maybe not in terms of raw processing power, but the thing is, some of the games are just phenomenal and makes me think of 7800 can handle it (like Super Mario 3). Not saying 7800 sux, b/c I bought that OVER a NES/SMS so many years ago. I have been an Atari fan so I thought they would come out with some great games... Xevious really wowed me and was worth the wait (I bought Joust and Food Fight with the system). Still, the NES version later on seems to be alittle cleaner and crisper. In any case, I am still amazed by the a little 2600 game called Solaris... Anyone else? People place too much emphasis on "processing power". The NES and 7800 both use 6502 chips so there isn't much difference. The 7800 has more colours, the NES has better sound. What the NES had that the 7800 had over the 7800 is something that makes technical specs meaningless: * Big-time developers. * Developers who stuck with the system and figured how to push the system more and more with fifth, sixth, seventh generations games. * Big-name licenses. * The support of manufacturers who weren't cheap (like the Tramiels) and willing to invest in game development, cartridge enhancements (ie. MMC3 chips) and memory for the games themvelves. People like to say that Atari screwed themselves over by not taking on the NES when they had the chance. I have a feeling they would have screwed the NES almost as badly as they wrecked the 7800. Technical specs have little to do with it. The 7800 could play NES style games. When the Tramiels clicked in to the fact that they had to PAY FOR THESE TYPES OF GAMES TO BE CREATED, all was lost already. SCRAPYARD dog might have made a difference in 1986, but by 1990 it was too late.

When i first joined the internet in 1993, there was precious little about the 7800. several posters I knew swore up and down that the only unreleased Atari 7800 game was Pyromania from Froggo Games. I want to thank John and Lee and everyone for letting us know about the titles in development for the 7800 that never made it out the door. It's quite interesting. I'm hoping that Chuck Norris game will find its way out, much like Klax. I'm also hoping GAUNTLET and ELECTROCOP will be found. Cheers!

Atari had a habit of showing other versions of the games in their 7800 advertising. The KARATEKA in that commercial is the XE version, not the 7800 version. IMPOSSIBLE MISSION looks like the Commodore 64 version. I would wager that SKY FOX was the C64 version too. :-(

quote: Originally posted by Mister VCS: Somtetimes I hear that the 7800 ist technical superior to the NES, and it was a tragedy that Atari released this system too late. I disagree. When you look close to the system, it is only a modifizied 5200/XL system with the sound of the 2600. The starting titles would be Dig Dug, Donkey Kong, Asteroids and so on. Short: the same games Atari already released for the 2600, 5200 and XL! In 1984 people where tired to play this old games the 4th time with minor graphic-modifications. They where tired in 1984 and in 1986, it doesen´t matter. Atari lost it´s innovation in 1984, always the same poor Action/Arcade games. They would never reach the creativity of Nintendo who pushed videogaming to a new dimension (Super Mario Bros). Why didn´t Atari released such games as Raiders of the Lost Ark for the 7800? Don´t missunderstand me: I love Atari, and I hate Nintendo, but sometimes, you have to be critical with a true love love som Really - the NES isn't much more than a modified 5200 either. :-) Same processing power, limited colour palette. Where Nintendo shined and Atari fell on their ass in developing innovative games. Some will disagree with me, but technical issues aren't the reason the NES cleaned up. The reason Nintendo succeeded was because they changed the face of gaming. While Atari released better versions of Atari 2600 titles and Commodore 64 ports on the 7800, Nintendo came out swinging with longer, more detailed games like Super Mario and Zelda. They also had major marketing bucks attached. In contrast: The Tramiels kept the 7800 on the shelf, until Nintendo actually took off. Then, in 1986, they released it with only a couple of leftover titles from the Warner era. They backed it with $300,000 in marketing compared to tens of millions Nintendo was paying. TO put that in perspective, Atari's 7800 marketing budget was only a fraction of what they spent on the Jaguar or the Lynx! Add to that Nintendo's tactic of locking developers out of competitive platforms and bullying stores that carrying competitive products and you had dead competition. Technical stuff had little to do with it. Marketing, strongarm tacticss and some revolutionary games were Nintendo's big combo punches. The Tramiels were cheap and they didn't help the matter. They didn't license big titles. THey didn't spend a lot of game development. They didn't release 1 megabit games until 1988 (Nintendo had these in 1985) because they didn't want to shell out for extra RAM. They didn't buy television ads, a lot of magazine ads or make a lot of POP material. They announced a lot of vapourware. They killed the 7800's peripherals. Seriously: it has little to do with technical issues as the 7800 and NES are very similar in terms of overall processing power (each has some strengths over the other in certain areas) as it does with short-sighted Tramiel idiocy.

quote: Originally posted by ubersaurus: After playing Jinks today after a long time... I still like it ;p I don't mind Jinks either. It won't win any awards, but there are worse games to be had. And anyone who can pull off speech on the 7800 gets an award from me!

Hi John, Regarding "Gauntlet", I don't think it was DARK CHAMBERS. DC was out in 1988. I read about GAUNTLET being programmed around 1989 or 1990 - after I already owned DC. They specifically referred to this game as GAUNTLET.

I think SUPER MARIO BROTHERS was an urban legend that started when someone wrote VIDEO GAMES AND COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT about Atari releasing this game. I think they mistook it for "Mario Brothers". I would find it surpising that Nintendo would license a flagship game to a competitor. As for unreleased titles, I've heard of these but I don't know how far all of them got along: GAUNTLET. Ace Magazine reported that the guys who did TOWER TOPPLER did the 7800 conversion. ELECTROCOP. This was shown at the Winter 1990 or 1991 CES. I heard from someone who said it was amazing when they played it at the show but I don't know of anyone who ever found it. KLAX. Which has now been released. SKYOX. This was shown on the back of the 7800 box, in a TV commercial and in a flyer. Not sure if that was a real 7800 game though. :-) Atari had a habit of showing 8-bit computer and Commodore 64 screenshows. WOOD & WATER RAGE/WHITE WATER MADNESS. Not sure if these were the same game or if they were ever started. Atari had them in their price lists and talked about them, but I don't know of anyone who ever saw them. TECHNOCLASH. Don't know much about this one, but there's a programmer on the net who has the 7800 version of this on his resume.

CousinVinnie: I love your site: for about two years, I've been working on a similar site off and on and hopefully I'll have it up and running before the summer. I realize reviews are subjective though I have to wonder why you gave CROSSBOW's graphics a 4.5 out of 5 but only gave ALIEN BRIGADE's graphics a 3.5 out of 5. When I compare the two, I find ALIEN BRIGADE's graphics are so superior there is no comparison. The colours are sharper in Alien Brigade, the sprites are less blocky, the backgrounds are much more detailed, the game scrolls and the cut scenes are well designed. Yes - the sprite animation can be jerky but I still found the game looked much better than CROSSBOW and most other 7800 titles. Just my opinion.

quote: Originally posted by Adrian M: That's not too bad. Only $159 is not that much, considering how much the previous version went for in the aftermarket. I am planning to reserve 2 or 3 copies as investment grade material for which I will put up on ebay as the supply dries up! It's all about the almighty PROFIT MARGIN!!!!! Man, the era of price-gouging on the net has truely become an art. SIGH. Kinda takes the fun out of collecting when you see "NEW, ULTRA RARE" (and direct from O'Sheas Ltd) Atari 7800 titles being auctioned off on Ebay.

Karateka has my vote. The joystick controls are brutal. My runners-up are definitely Water SKI and TANK COMMAND.

quote: Originally posted by Albert: I can't imagine that Nintendo would have ever let Atari release Super Mario Bros. They were too busy clobbering Atari with the NES and I doubt at that point they would have given Atari the time of day, much less the rights to one of their most popular titles. I don't know very much about Atari 7800 programming, but does it also support tile graphics like the NES? ..Al Play SCRAPYARD DOG. :-) Not a Super Mario killer but it demonstrated that the 7800 could easily play this type of game.

quote: Originally posted by Joey Kay: I think I know how this rumour started. Back in 1990 or so (I'll have to dig out the magazine) a reader wrote GamePro bitching that Atari had released new games for the 7800 but he couldn't find them anywhere. Anyhow, GamePro forwarded the letter to Atari, and the response in the magazine was from an Atari executive. Here's where the rumour may have started. The GamePro reader who wrote the letter cited a bunch of new Atari releases he couldn't find in stores, and mistakenly listed "Super Mario Bros." in the letter (I guess he was thinking of regular Mario Bros). My curiousity was sparked at the time, so I phoned Atari and asked. They told me they had not released, announced, or planned the title. It's been my assumption that this magazine reader letter was where this rumour started. Which "sorry a--" mag did you see this in, Cousin Vinnie? Maybe the rumour didn't start from GamePro. Cheers! That's how I remember it, though I remember it being in VIDEO GAMES & COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT. But seriously, VG&CE also said that GREMLINS was an excellent game for the 7800!

quote: Originally posted by Jet Boot Jack: As a general rule all Atari Light Gun games SUCK! I have 2 guns and have used them on 7800 and XE. Both are massivley inaccurate - taking any fun from the games (this aint no GunCon and TIme Crisis!!!) As to the games - Meltdown is dull, as are Bug Hunt and Barnyard Balster on the XE, in fact if you have a light gun there is only one reasonable game "Crimebusters" on the XE - even with the miserable light gun this game is OK.... sTeVE Hmmm. I quite liked ALIEN BRIGADE and CROSSBOW, though they don't necessarily count as you could also play them with joysticks.

Man - the 2600 version if brutal. For a 2600 game, the graphics aren't half-bad but is it EVER HARD. Those guys really know how to kick you when you're down in that particular version!!!!

I've beaten it lots of times. It's actually not all that hard ... just needs practice. A couple of tips. First, learn how to do the reverse jump kick and get good at it. It's the best thing you can do in this game. Also learn the headbutt and elbow jab. Avoid regular punches and kicks if possible. Second, when you face the SHADOW BOSS, ignore his cronies. If you kill him, they'll disappear. Third, try to get your enemies into a corner. If you get them into a corner, you can elbow jab them to death.