CV Gus

I guess nobody will offer to program a test cartridge without knowing what it is. I've already mentioned that one part can be tested on a CV, but not the other. Essentially, the other part is a combination of parallel resistors and a rewired set-up, so it is now a photodarlington transistor. The Missile Command test consisted of seeing if the cursor would move up if the transistor was exposed to a light source, such as a city being blown up by a missile. It happened, so so far, the thing works. It does not happen unless it is focused directly at the light source. A crude test, to be sure, but it told me what I needed to know so far. By now you've probably guessed that I've built a working Atari 5200 Light Gun.

Last night, while trying to solve the problem I'd have building a CV version of my (still secret) 5200 project, I also wondered about a CV trak-ball. After studying the controller (a SAC), it suddenly occurred to me that both a C-64 and a CV have 9-pin connectors, and that a joystick that works on one will usually work on the other. Enter the Programmer's Reference Guide. Sure enough, the pin scheme is very similar, apparently excluding the part that handles paddle controllers. Even so, something occurred to me: I plugged in a SAC controller for Slither. As expected, the ship moved horizontally. No big surprise- this is the basis of my no-battery/adapter driving module. However, if you plug it into the second control port, the ship moves vertically. This may well mean that, unlike the Atari systems, the CV cannot really have the equivalent of two paddles in one port. This may be why the Roller Controller needs to be plugged into both jacks. It does make it a hell of a lot easier to design one's own trak-ball controller, at least. It explains a lot, and may provide a clue to why my controller isn't working properly- since the problem is with the horizontal, it pertains to the player one jack. The only problem is getting a fast enough "pulse;" this would take some detailed construction. If you look at the circuitry of a SAC spinner, that of the steering module or the roller controller, and then that of an Atari 2600 Indy 500 paddle controller, you'd notice how it works, and how similar the 2600 controller is in basic design to that of a SAC spinner. Unfortunately, I'm no closer to figuring out a CV version of my project. I still need a 5200 programmer to make a simple test cartridge. I'd describe it here, but then anyone could figure out what I'm trying to do. Thanks.

Oh, no, it's much more than that. As I said, it will allow a whole new genre of games not currently available for 5200 owners. I was able to better test the first part of it using a CV controller. It works just fine. The second part, though- so far, it looks like it works quite well, but without that test cartridge, it is impossible to tell for sure. Again, oddly enough, if I had a working C-64, or even a Vic-20, I could better test it. A CV version is not going to be easy. The whole basis for the vital mechanism will not work properly with a CV control scheme.

Has anyone else ever tried this? Some years ago, I built a controller set-up that would allow 3 or 4 players to simultaneously play a game. It works like this: a CV has 18 "switches," as I call them. 12 Keypad buttons. 4 Joystick switches. 2 Fire buttons. In theory, you could do more (as with the SACs), but 18 is the basic number. Playing NES' Gauntlet 2, I wondered; could the CV do this? A four-player game? So, using a Y-Adapter, I rewired an old controller so it was in fact acting as a keypad controller. You push up, it was like hitting a keypad button. Likewise, the other 3 directions, and the two fire buttons. It was a crude, temporary set-up, but it did work. You could do the same thing with the second one, too. Don't know why I did it, really. Maybe just to see if it could be done.

Digital only...I was afraid of that. I've taken apart controllers (all 3 kinds) before, and noticed that the driving, roller, and spinner controllers are based on a "pulse" format- when they spin, they send "pulses," be it from the powered wheels or magnets/reed switches. The 5200, C-64, and 2600 all read resistances and currents from a potentiometer, directly. I found info on controllers from an ADAM website, but yours is good for an overview. Thanks. Unfortunately, for that 5200 secret project to work on a CV, I'm going to have to redesign certain aspects. It may even require an external power source, even with the original modification with the two main transistors- enough for a 5200, 2600, or Commodore-64, but not a CV. Oh, well. I'll think of something. Hopefully.

O.K., the thing itself is ready. I've so far managed to test it using Missile Command as a test cartridge. The tests were somewhat crude, but so far it works. A serious problem is that the cord I was using- from an old 5200 controller- is very unreliable, so I've got to use another- along with some stripped garbage ties (don't you just love my sophisticated equptment?) and my ancient multitester- hey, it's gotten me this far. The tests have been successful in spite of this. The reason for building this thing is to allow homebrewers to program a whole different class of games. What I need now is a simple test cartridge. Ironically, if my Commodore-64 was still running I might have been able to use it for this part, but no luck. I would ask a homebrewer for it, giving him the requirements. Once I receive it, I can make any modifications necessary. Once this is done, I would send the cartridge back to the programmer...along with what I was testing (a loan). This way, he can see if it's really any good. Thanks in advance.

Does anyone here know where to find the tech specs for a CV controller- that is, what the pins at the jack on the console itself are for (there are 9). I'm especially interested in the ones involved if you want to build a standard paddle controller- with resistance/current detection. Thanks.

Maybe. If so, I think Radio Shack sells these little IR detection cards that may help. http://whackywhizzers.blogspot.com/2007/09/ir-sensors.html

O.K., I figured out how to deal with the second problem. Now, it exists. I've given it what tests I can, but what doesn't help is the fact that the 5200 cables really are pathetic, and may be throwing off my results. I'll have to rig something else for a better test. The tests I have given it are favorable. It works. If it does that last thing, then, as I've said, a whole new class of games may be available for 5200 and maybe even CV and 2600 owners, since the basic design applies to all three. A ROM will not do, I'm afraid . The only way to run this thing properly is with an actual 5200 test game- a cartridge casing is not necessary, though, as long as I know how to plug it in. For now I'd like to keep this project a secret, although of course whoever would program this test cartridge would know- it would be impossible for him not to figure out what I'm trying to do from the description in any case.

I am currently working on something for both the CV and the 5200. I will likely start with the 5200 version. Once I get the prototype ready- if I can- I may need a very, very simple homebrew cartridge game to properly test it. On a Commodore-64, I could program it in just 30 minutes or so. Is there anyone who could help me with this? For now, I'd like to keep it a secret, but if it works, a whole new class of games can be done. There are two things I must figure out for this to work. I have already gotten the first part ready. Thanks.

And notice that the games had to be purchased within a particular time frame. A year. I assume from the fine print that the trip was for the owner of a 7800, too. The 25 dollar 7800 was just too easy. I had always assumed that it was a typo. If you had one, why would you want another (and only at a discount at that)? Even a different system?

While it is unfair to blame the Tramiels for everything- the 1984 crash was not their fault!- everything that happened afterwards was. Look, they must have known what the deal was with Atari when they took over. But throughout the 7800's pitiful time, it always seemed as though every single time they could do something right, they'd find some way to foul it up. They decided to go ahead with the 7800- meant to compete with the CV- against the NES! O.K. fine. There were quite a few people willing to go with "Atari" (including the sap typing this). When you decide on something like this, you either do it right, or not at all. The 2600 and 5200 were systems of their times, with current games. Look at the boxes, and instruction booklets. It was a good, solid effort. But the 7800? Cheap, ugly booklets and boxes. Very few then-current games, and whole genres missing. All of this, against a system far more dangerous than the CV! How could they not lose? If they had wanted to fail, they left nothing to chance. So while it is unfair to blame them for anything, the Tramiels cannot be bashed enough. How about a homebrew 7800 game, in which you try to make the 7800 a major player in 1988 with the Tramiels blocking your every effort so you cannot possibly win?

Why are you always so anti-Atari in your posts? (Following the ridiculous 7800 vs CV argument, which from a technical standpoint is totally worthless.) I just bought my 7800 a week ago. We like it. I'm quite proud of it. Is this forum being attached by subversive Cabbage Patch dolls or something? Anti Atari? Hey, man, I got an Atari 2600 when it first came out! And I was one of the minority of dopes who bought an Atari 7800 back in 1988 instead of an NES! And in 1997/1998 I went twelve miles one-way to a town-wide garage sale to pick up an Atari 5200, which had busted controller plugs and switchbox- do you know how long it took me to get it up and running? And did you fail to notice that I not only built a working DIGITAL CONTROLLER for that 5200, but also- with Big O's help- posted the tech plans so anyone could do it? Or how I built a working paddle controller for the 5200, just for a good game of Super Breakout and Pole Position? For someone who is "anti-Atari," I sure seem to be interested in the games and in building hardware for Atari systems. The whole point of my CV vs. 7800 post was to determine if the 7800 effort- which was clearly planned in 1983 (what else did Atari think they were going to be up against in late 1984- they had dumped the 5200, so that just left the CV)- was a stupid idea. Try to get this- if so, then the 7800 was doomed even without the Tramiels! I'm actually NOT blaming the Tramiels for it! But the fact is, the CV outsold the 5200. The 5200 was doomed in 1983, since Atari had decided to dump it. The 7800 was not all that much better than the CV, so- by extension- it was not that much better than the 5200, either. And all you have to do is look at that promotional effort to see that it really was incredibly stupid. No wonder Wall Street had to be bailed out to the tune of 700 billion dollars (most of which is foreign money, so now foreigners own countless mortages, by the by). American businesses haven't been able to do much of anything right for decades now!

This looks absolutely fantastic- maybe even better than the 5200 version. One can only wonder how much better the 7800 would have done in 1987 had these homebrews existed back then for the 7800.

1) I don't understand the question here. What do you mean, exactly? 2) Inside the CV is a small adjustment "hole" for the RF, possible two (I've seen both versions). Try adjusting the channel select (3 and 4) and/or the RF on your television, and see what happens, because the only way to adjust the CV's (which is in a small metal box under the metal casing inside) is to get to it with a tiny screwdriver. Be sure that you've tried everything else first, as getting to this is a serious hassle. The metal box has a sort of metal lid on it- it's clear enough to see- once this is off, look for a small round hole, inside of which you can see a slot for a tiny screwdriver. You turn it to adjust it. Be VERY CAREFUL, and DO NOT ever force it. 3) Possibly the CV, too. Try cleaning both. Do NOT do this unless you unplug the thing first! 4) Don't know. 5) It should not be very hard. Under the CV are screws holding the black plastic casing together. On the side with the switch, try loosening them a bit.

For some reason, I'm still very partial to Snap Jack.

Well, while it's true that hardware alone does not a winner decide, it certainly DOES matter when it comes to abandoning one system for another. DracIsBack, you have to remember that with the 2600 it was just a new thing, but by 1983 we'd be asking more sophisticated questions. Things had changed. The CV was NOT dead in 1983 and 1984 when the 7800 was planned and then supposed to have been released. True, Coleco was gone, but someone else took over. Atari had planned to match the CV and the 7800, since they themselves had dumped the 5200. Of course, by 1987, the CV was pretty much out of the race, and even in 1986 it was rapidly running out of steam. But it was still around; all about where I used to live, it was everywhere, with cartridges going for normal prices. I just cannot believe that if the 5200 was doing as well as the CV in sales, Atari would have been insanely stupid enough to have abandoned it. Hell, even I'm not THAT cynical! What did the CV in was that stupid ADAM computer- that move bankrupted Coleco. Had they simply concentrated those resources on the CV, they would have made it. Trust me on that- I live near Amsterdam, NY. Did you know that they hired just anyone to assemble those computers on crude plywood tables, without any precautions against static electricity an in dirty dusty conditions? The 2600 and most future systems came out in different eras. The 2600 was the true trailblazer, so it garnered huge support and games. It was simply the most established game system ever, esp. considering the fact that it came out in a time when programmables were new. In the case of the 7800, we DID have something to compare it to. The CV. The 5200. Unlike the 2600, with the 7800 we could ask "what does this thing do that previous programmables didn't?" I've sort of blended together 5200 and CV owners, but that was clumsy, since they would ask the question from different point of views. 5200 owners had gone with Atari (obviously!). They wanted to know just for what they were being abandoned. Plus the fact that they were being abandoned after just 1 1/2 years, for crying out loud!!! CV owners, on the other hand, would look at it from a different perspective. Clearly, when it came time to make a choice, they went with the CV and its selection of games. The 7800 only offered, for the most part, what the 5200 had offered, and again, we had already made our choice. If Ms. Pac-Man and Centipede didn't do it the first time, why would it work with the 7800? So when it came to the games, it was sort of hard to impress people with 7800 versions of games that had already been done on the 2600 and 5200, plus the CV and other formats in some cases (Ms. Pac-Man on the C-64, and Centipede on the CV, for example). Been there, got that. Therefore, the only chance the 7800 would have had in 1984 was to be SO MUCH FRIGGIN' BETTER than the 5200 or CV that 5200 owners would be willing to forgive and forget, and CV owners willing to abandon the whole CV line. This is what I meant by the above- in 1977, there wasn't anything from the past, really, to use as a yardstick. It was still new. But not by the time the 7800 was to be released. And quite frankly, judging from what I've seen, it wasn't. Esp. with the sort of games one would have considered back in 1983 or 1984. Compare this to how Nintendo did things. They stuck with the NES, and handled it well, right into the 16-Bit era. When it was finally time to leave the NES behind for the next system, nobody could say that Nintendo rushed anything. Sega started making the same mistake Atari did with the Sega CD and 32X.

Originally, the 7800 was slated to take on the ColecoVision in late 1984. Just how good or boneheaded an idea this was is being discussed elsewhere. But, as we all know, what really ended up happening was that the 7800 was forced to take on the NES. Just as with the CV, it was a bit one-sided. So, Atari- by now Tramiel Atari- tried the old tactic of a promotion. It worked like this: you would buy certain numbers of 7800 cartridges to be eligible for prizes. Five would earn you a T-shirt! Fifteen would be a FREE CARTRIDGE! And if you bought twenty-five, you could win a trip to CA, to see Atari in action! You'd have to write a 25-word essay, but hey. First, you'd get a poster showing Atari 7800 games, and with it enclose proof of purchases. O.K., so far, so good...until you noticed a few things. First of all, at least three of the initial batch of games were NOT on the poster: Xevious, Galaga, and Pole Position 2. Granted, that last one was a pack-in, so, very well. But those first two, which someone buying a 7800 was very likely to get, were out. Off to a great start, right? But it gets better. That poster had about 28 games on it. And at least a dozen were COMING SOON, so you couldn't even buy them yet! You also had to figure the cost. Where I bought the 7800, games were $20.00 each (ignore tax for a moment). Therefore, you'd have to spend $100.00 for a crummy T-shirt, and $300.00 for a bonus $20.00 cartridge. And did I mention that Summer and Winter Games were NOT a part of this deal, and they could substitute your choice for something else? So- assuming you had 15 games, only 11 were eligible. Adding insult to the injury was the fact that this was effective as of October 1st, 1988, and it ended September 30th, 1989. So for that last stage, you needed to get 25 games in 12 months. And odds were, stores never carried them all: even Kay-Bee and Toys `R Us where I lived never did. 15 games was unusual. If, as several people here have said, the 7800 was available in 1987, then any early purchase was...well, you were out of luck. So this was really a stupid promotion. The NES got a jump on the 7800, and as some here have said, overall the NES was superior. It had the games, and the licenses. Why, then, did Atari have such a promotion? Did they think people were that dumb? Or that the 7800 would be so popular that people would gobble up those games, even assuming they liked ALL of them (which would have been most unusual)? Why didn't Atari simply have that trip-prize open to ALL 7800 owners? The prize (I think there were two such trips offered, one in spring of 1989- meaning that to get the earlier one, you had to buy even faster, which may not even have been possible!) would have been the same, except that you didn't have to buy all of those games. As for the free game, why 15, instead of maybe 6 or 7, with a longer period of time allowed? Isn't the idea behind such a thing to draw people to your product? You have to show some generosity for it to work, and Atari was not doing that.

I think I see the problem here- I should explain this in a more organized fashion. As it is, I'm trying to explain too much in a scattershot way. First, and I'm surprised that nobody else here has mentioned this, is the theory that the 5200 was never supposed to have existed- it was the Atari 7800 that was the "real" 5200. Back in 1981 or 1982, it was obvious that the 2600 could no longer handle arcade-to-home versions well enough. Arcade technology had advanced tremendously over the past few previous years, but not so the 2600. As a result, Atari started planning a "next generation" system. Some called it the 3600, but details were too vague. Since Atari was by far the #1 name in home gaming, they were not worried about taking their time; plus, the 2600 was still a moneymaker. At this point, and to their horror, they found out that Coleco was also designing a new system. This was no Telstar Arcade; this console was GOOD. Damn GOOD. Even the early previews showed that it could blow the doors off of any console out there. This worried Atari for two reasons: The fact that Coleco would gain on them easily with the best console out there, and that other companies would go with them, licensing their games for the ColecoVision. By the time their (we'll call it for now) "3600" came out, they would be left in the dust, without any real arcade games for it, except for their own ("Atari" was a single huge company back then). There wasn't time to complete the 3600 project. They needed something, and FAST. Thus, they stripped down an Atari (400) computer, making it into a gaming machine (note how people not interested in a computer DID buy a "game-playing computer"). Since they were familiar with their own games and technology, they were able to rush out an initial batch of games, too. But this put Atari in a bad position. They had thrown their hat into the ring with the 5200. But they still had what we will now call the 7800. Atari had two choices at this point, neither of which looked really good. They could stick with the 5200 for as long as reasonably possible, but then they would have a problem: by the time it was time to retire the 5200- say, four years later, in 1986- the 7800, developed in 1983, would itself be behind the arcade technology. Too far behind. The other choice was this: retire the 5200 after only about 1 1/2 years, and release the 7800. This way, the 7800 technology would not be too outdated, but then, what about the 5200 owners? Wouldn't they be furious at being abandoned after so little time (many letters written to gaming magazines at that point indicated that this was the case). Now here is a point I've made before- no way did 5200 sales ever match CV sales, overall. If they had, and the CV did sell at least 3 million units (it could have been as high as 6 million), then the 5200 was a real moneymaker. Why would Atari risk the anger of their customers in order to dump a moneymaker after a mere 18 months, in the hopes that those customers were complacent enough to buy another console which at first only offered games they had already bought for the 5200- esp. since some of those games weren't even much better (e.g. Ms. Pac-Man)? Apparently, 5200 sales were disappointing enough that they decided on the second option. In early 1984, before the Crash, they announced that the 5200 was done, and they were going to release the 7800. You all know the rest. The Crash happened, the Tramiels took over a split-up Atari, and well, it was really sad, watching it slowly die. *************************** Now, in order to understand this next part, you have to remember that here we are talking about 1983. Nobody foresaw the Crash, and there was no reason for it, really. Blaming a "Glut" ignores the fact that the mid-1990s had more systems and games (many bad) out there than did 1984, yet, a second Crash did not occur. It was know-nothing "experts" and unbelievably stupid management that caused it- and know this: my explanation blames the older generations for bad leadership; the "glut" theory maintains that younger people were stupid enough to spread their money too thinly- because we couldn't tell a bad game from a good one. In other words, they made the decisions, but we get the blame for the failures. As usual. But would YOU have bought I Want My Mommy or Dishaster over Ms. Pac-Man or Robot Tank? And most of those lame games weren't even carried by most stores in any case! But in any case, the 7800 was developed in 1983. But at this point, Atari already knew about the CV. Hell, they knew about the 5200- after all, it was their own system, based on technology that had been around before "the 5200!" Earlier in this thread, games like Scrapyard Dog and Alien Brigade were mentioned. But you have to remember that in 1983, these sorts of games did not really exist yet, or at least were not significant. In those days, the games to be considered were the games like Turbo, Vanguard, Zaxxon, Pac-Man, etc. Even Guantlet wasn't there yet. Therefore, whether or not the CV (or the 5200, even) could handle such games was not an issue. The only thing that mattered was how much better could the 7800 handle the kinds of games that one would consider back in 1983 than a 5200 or the more popular CV. THIS is why I keep bringing up games like Joust, and keep comparing the (100% completed?) version to the 7800. Obviously, the difference is not that great. Visually better, true- but not by enough. Likewise Ms. Pac-Man vs. the 5200 version. It is especially important to consider this based on the kinds of games one would consider from a 1983 point of view. There was no reason at that point to think that Coleco would be gone by 1984. There was no reason to think the whole industry would collapse. Therefore, the CV, seen from 1983, was still going to be around by late 1984. But clearly the 5200 wouldn't be, since Atari itself had decided to abandon it. Thus, at that point, it looked to be a matter of Atari 7800 vs. ColecoVision. I honestly believe that this was why Joust, Pac-Man, and Dig Dug were never released for the CV. All three games, had they been completed, would have been superb. But, had they been, then think about this: by that 1984 release, the CV would have had excellent versions of Dig Dug and Joust to match up to those of the 7800 versions, making it even less likely that people would have gotten a 7800. And Pac-Man could somewhat indirectly have matched 7800 Ms. Pac-Man. So, this is why I'm trying to find out, in a more technical sense, how much better a 7800 was than a CV. If it was not that much better than a CV (or a 5200, for that matter), then the 7800 project was doomed from the start, even if the Crash had not happened, and even if "old Atari" had not died. In other words...just what the hell were they thinking?

1) TEMPEST. 2) Any RPG, like Lord of the Dungeon. 3) Space Duel. 4) B-17 Bomber. 5) Crazy Climber. Esp. since voice synthesis was quite possible for a 5200 game.

Oh, I see- the Fairchild console only offers a few choices. Yellow isn't even available? Considering what you had to work with, this is an incredible effort. It even has an attract mode. There is considerable talent behind this. Good luck on future efforts. Are RPGs (simple ones) possible on the system? Or is there enough memory?

Only because you cannot understand what I'm trying to get at here. I myself, when starting this thread, hadn't thought of the "who did Atari think would buy the 7800 in 1984?" question. Right now, our economy is in such trouble that the federal government is going to spend 700 BILLION dollars on a bailout. That's YOUR tax money, Drac- got it? YOU are paying for it. But this mess did not come about because of the past few years. This is the inevitable result of unbelievably stupid decisions, and short-sighted planning, on the part of American business leaders for decades now. A mess we- that includes YOU, Drac- are going to be stuck with by those who made it for the rest of our lives. Since this is a video game website, and this is a 7800 area, I'm dealing with that particular area of the economy. In this case: why did Atari crash and burn? How did the NES make Japan the big name in the multi-million dollar video game industry? Was it just because they failed to release the 7800 a few years earlier? Was Japan really a sneaky bunch of cheaters? No. I'm trying to find out if this was a case of such stupidity, that Atari was doomed long before anyone even heard of the NES. Japan-bashing was big back then, and few were blaming American CEOs for the fact that the NES was so big by 1988. Yes, American video gaming crashed back in 1984. But WHY did it do that? If there was any truth to the "computers will take over" argument, then the NES would not have been as big as it was- even bigger than the CV ever was. Nintendo made a fortune on that. So, no, it was NOT a "niche" thing. Saying a computer is better than a console, and therefore will trash the consoles, is like saying that because a truck can do more than a car or motorbike, all you'll see on the road are trucks- with a few exceptions. Consoles are cheaper, easier to use, can concentrate all of their abilities on games, gaming will not tie up the family computer, etc. Computers never did and never will eliminate consoles, because they operate on two entirely different levels. But I've always noticed that many computer nerds were hostile toward consoles, even back in the early 1980s. They actually seem to see consoles as competition to their god-like machines. As for CV/5200 sales- again, why would Atari dump a moneymaker? They HAD to have been very disappointed by sales, either that or they were the biggest bunch of idiots in the history of American industries. If the 7800 was not much better than the CV- and I've never said that it wasn't in many ways, just not enough- then, by extension, it probably wasn't all that much better than a 5200. Therefore, it was a doomed project from the beginning. But you have to consider what kind of games we were dealing with back then. At that point, in 1983, when the 7800 was being developed, the kinds of games in which the 7800 would have an advantage over the CV and 5200- just weren't really in the gamers' conscousness at that point, if they even existed. Operation Wolf-style games? In 1983? No- it was Zaxxon, Xevious, Maze-style games, etc. All of which could be handled by the CV or 5200, for the most part (the 5200 Robotron is plenty respectable). Even Crossbow could have been handled nicely by either one. So, when looking at the 7800, people- 5200 owners especially- would want to know how it would handle the sort of games that the 5200 and CV had already done. We couldn't see the future. In that regard, the 7800 just wasn't all that spectacular. Not like the 2600-to-CV jump. It has only occurred to me recently how hopeless the 7800 effort was. Like most other people, I had assumed that it was released too late, its initial games were outdated, and former 5200 owners weren't about to trust Atari again. But if the 7800 was not technologically advanced enough over the CV and 5200, then what chance did it ever have? Even if the industry had NOT crashed in 1984, the Tramiels had NOT taken over, and Atari DID go ahead with a late 1984 release, as they had planned (Electronic Fun and Electronic Games). Would gamers have really been interested enough? THAT'S what I'm trying to figure out here. Because, quite frankly, what ruined Atari and Coleco (ADAM computer, gahhh...), appears to have ruined many other parts of the economy, too.

Yipe! Could you please explain that grey-background thing again?

The industry did not collapse in 1983- it was 1984. In 1983, everyone assumed that it would simply be a "shake out" that would weed out the inferior companies. The problem is that much of the economy is not driven by anything real, but by psychology. This is why news reports have such an impact on Wall Street activity. "Experts" were saying that computers would wipe out video gaming as far back as 1981. The fact that we are still playing with PS3s and X-Box 360s have proven them totally wrong, but in those days the industries were made afraid by it. Yet, sales for home video gaming remained strong. It was a contest between what sales figures indicated and what "experts" said. Should've been no contest, but- as anyone from my generation will tell you- nobody ever asked us what we wanted- some Baby-Boomer "expert" always did this (a Dilbert "One Off" activity, by the by). If Atari and Coleco- esp. Coleco- had ignored the experts and stuck with solid gaming, then the collapse would not have happened- this was a case of industrial suicide, plain and simple. The reason the NES made it so big was because that suicide left a tremendous want in an allegedly "dead" industry. Nintendo resurrected it, nothing more. In fact, they were notorious for asking American experts questions, and then doing something else. The 7800, ironically, was only an issue because of Nintendo and the NES. Reliable sales data does not exist. I'm going by observations from those days (I was there), and the fact that CVs are much easier to find in garage sales than 5200s. And yes, I've asked around for them. Also, as far as I know, someone picked up the CV after 1984, which is why it was around after Coleco itself(e.g. Alcazar was a 1985 game, and Tank Wars was 1986). It was around well into 1987, and not just in the buck-a-game basket. The 10-plane bit was a comparison. Note the use of the word "exactly." Fact of the matter is, and you keep missing this, is that Atari DID start with the 7800, even completing it and a batch of early games (Joust, Centipede, Galaga, etc.). Therefore, they intended to release it after dumping the 5200 (why would they dump the 5200, by the way, if it wasn't getting trashed by the CV? You don't dump a moneymaker, which is why the 2600 stuck around so long). The CV was there in 1982. So, they knew about the CV when they started the 7800. And that's my whole point. If the 7800 was not much better than the CV, which is what I'm trying to find out here, then clearly it was a dumb move on Atari's part. Here's why: 1) If you want to release a "next generation system," it had better be much better than what's already out there, not just "somewhat." 2) Most of the 7800 games were already done at that point on the 5200. Centipede, Joust, Robotron: 2084. 3) Now consider this, Drac- just who were the buyers Atari was aiming at with the 7800? 5200 owners would be sore at Atari for what amounted to abandonment, and they already HAD most of the 7800 games on the 5200, while others- like Pole Position 2 and Galaga- could have/should have been made for the 5200. It had only been less than two years since the 5200 was widely available, so it wasn't a case of trying for a new generation of gamers. CV owners? With relatively few exceptions, esp. in 1982, each console had games only available for it in that generation of consoles. The CV had Ladybug, Frenzy, Wizard of WOR*, Turbo, Cosmic Avenger, DK and DKjr., Pepper 2, etc. The 5200 had Berzerk, Qix, Tempest*, Pole Position, Pengo, Vanguard, etc. We CV owners had made our choice. So if those games didn't lure us over to the 5200, why the hell would we go for the 7800? It would have been even worse, if Joust, Pac-Man, and Dig Dug had been 100% completed and released (I believe that is why they never were- for the 7800. Oh, what a tangled web...). So CV owners were out, esp. since in 1983 and 1984 great games were released (Pepper 2, Frenzy, Tapper, Burgertime, Star Trek, Bump `N Jump, etc.). It was a guaranteed failure from the first, really. Atari should either have stuck with the 5200, or made games for the CV (e.g. Joust). * At that point, we believed these games were going to be available.

My point behind all of this, DracIsBack, is this: If the 7800 was not really much better than the CV, which was far more popular than the 5200, then- assuming development for the 7800 started back in 1983 (the 7800 was announced in old video game magazines in mid-1984; I still have them), Atari had a near-guaranteed failure from Day One. I would assume that Atari engineers had $150-$200 in their budget to pick up a CV, their biggest competitor in those days, and look it over. I assume that they could figure out what it could do. Since nobody in 1983 really foresaw the total collapse of the industry in 1984, there was no reason to assume that a system that had already passed the 1,000,000 mark at that point was going down in mid-1984 (officially- the CV was around well into 1987 in my area). Therefore, when the 7800 was due to be released in late 1984, the CV was, by any guess, still going to be around at that point, with its legions of owners. Still strong. Along with Coleco. NOW do you see where I'm going with this? Since Atari had no reason to assume anything but that the CV, which helped trash their 5200 hopes, was still going to be around and stronger (due to the inevitable "learning curve") in 1984, then the only way to beat it was with a system that, unlike the 5200, was SO MUCH BETTER that the CV had to lose. And the only way that was going to happen was if it was able to supply truly (by 1984 standards, which is why I keep bringing up Joust and Moon Patrol) awesome games, which would give CV owners whiplash. BUT- If the 7800 was not in fact that much better, then Atari's 7800 effort was doomed from the start. I will grant that the 7800 has advantages- just as it did over the 5200. But, if those advantages were not enough, esp. by 1984 standards (you didn't exactly have 10-plane scrolling "Mortal Kombat"-style games back then), then 5200 owners were going to say "WHAT?! YOU *%$#@&%!$#@% jerks dumped me and my 5200 for THIS $%#&?!," while CV owners would say "What, man, I'm not abandoning my CV and all these games for THAT. You think I'm stupid or somethin'?" Since the CV was by far THE third-generation console, this is why I made the CV-7800 comparison here.