CV Gus
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Posts posted by CV Gus
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Funny you should mention that. Before adding the 33,000 OHM resistor to my paddle controller, you had to move all the way left before you could move all the way to the right.
But wouldn't the game directly read the resistance from the controller? I'll admit it: I don't quite understand why this is.
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Oddly enough, I have the instruction booklet for this game, but not the game.
The instructions say to move the joystick left and right to "initiate the Galaxian fleet," or something like that.
Why?
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Oh, believe me, the ADAM was a serious failure- I was around in those days. Oversized, clumsy, often defective in any number of ways...it was a terrible idea, and the fact that it was clearly rushed out for the Christmas 1983 season, all added up to a failure, especially since there were a number of established computers out there: Commodore, Atari, IBM, Apple, etc.
And haven't I condemned, over and over, the stupid marketers' notion that "video games dead; computers the future?"
The CV did get a jump on the 5200, even if they were, as you mention, shown at the same time. Don't forget, it's one thing to be able to SHOW a 5200, and quite another to be able to market it. In its comparison between the two, Video Games Player magazine in mid-1983 made a point of mentioning that head start, as did a later comparison in Electronic Games magazine. Since arcade games had advanced tremendously in the 1980-1982 era, the older systems were falling further and further behind, so we were eager for what would later be referred to as "the next generation of consoles." Even a head start of a few months was absolutely critical at that time.
You must remember something at that time- Atari was one single big company, unlike the Tramiel era. They had to produce for the 2600, the arcades, several computers, AND the 5200 on top of it all. That was a heavy load to carry, so the 5200 was not given the sort of attention one would today have thought.
If the Tramiels ever wanted to support the 5200 into 1985, then why weren't games like Millipede, Super Pac-man, and others, never released? To be honest, I don't think the Tramiels were always totally honest.
And I still have 1984 video game magazines reporting on how the 5200 was dumped, in favor of the 7800. That, and the fact that many 5200 owners wrote in about being abandoned. So it was no myth.
Look- there was never a "Glut-inspired" crash. Ever. Look at all of the systems and games in the early and mid-1990s: The NES, the Super NES, the Genesis, the 32X and CD, the CD-i, the neo-geo systems and such, the Jaguar, the Saturn, and the all-important fact that something that did not exist (in any practical sense) in my generation's young days was taking hold- the Internet. Why wasn't there a crash at that point, if there was any truth to glut=crash?
American video gaming collapsed in 1984 due to poor financial management, the fact that the older generations- esp. the Baby Boomers- refused to understand the younger generations beyond theories they cooked up among themselves, and (related to that) the unbelievably stupid belief that "video games are dead, the future is in computers." This included the CV and 5200.
In short, American video game companies pretty much gave up and let themselves starve to death. Even though, as the NES proved, there was no shortage of food.
This is why it is so important for good homebrewers, like Bienvenu, Huggins, Opcode, and their equivalents for other systems, to be supported by us. Those great old systems are getting the chance they derserved. I myself will try to purchase at least 3 games this year.
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Backward compatibility can be a good thing, especially if the older software is still desired.
The problem the 7800 had was that not all 2600 games were compatible with it, and it had no COLOR/B&W switch, making some games, like Space Shuttle, unplayable.
But beyond that was the fact that when it was supposed to have been released- 1984- the 2600 was still a valid presence in the console world. But by the time it came out and we were well into the NES era, well...need I say more? At that point the ability to play 2600 games was a very minor selling point, especially as the next generation of video gamers was up and coming. The 7800 would only sink or swim based upon 7800 games, and there just wasn't enough of that for it to succeed.
It was suggested here that the 5200 should have had a good, convenient 2600 adapter INCLUDED with it. That was an excellent idea, especially as the 1982 2600 games were really something at that point. Had Atari made digital controllers for the 5200 instead of those analog controllers, and had they included the 2600 adapter so it was RIGHT THERE when you bought the 5200, then the 5200 would probably have done much better.
But I can't get over the fact that Atari was going to dump the 5200 after less than 1 1/2 years. Obviously, the sales were disappointing, but there was more than money to consider- there was reputation. By dumping the 5200, they were clearly saying "we don't care about our customers." They should have stuck it out at least another year, releasing Tempest, Millipede, Super Pac-Man, and Pac-Man Jr. along the way. Since Coleco was doomed in mid-1984, that would've been a tremendous advantage. And look at those games- were the 7800 games that much better?
Oh, well.
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Actually, garage sales are a good guide. If you find a CV, that means they had a CV. If not a 5200, then...they didn't have one (I ask).
You must remember that I also ask about the 5200 in any situation where I see people my age, or where video games (such as the Genesis, Playstation, etc.) are. I have found quite a bit of CV stuff this way and at random; NOT so with the 5200. And I have lived in four different areas over the years.
The Atari 5200 never did as well as the ColecoVision for several reasons: the head start the CV got on it, the fact that most of its games had been done already on the 2600 and Atari computers, and the crummy controllers. The final numbers just do not justify the claim that the 5200 outsold the CV, unless this was done in a highly selective way. Again, why would Atari abandon a system that is finally getting somewhere in order to tell the gaming public "ooops, sorry, suckers- sure, it hasn't been very long, but now we want you to start AAA-lllllllllll-lll over again with the 7800, that mostly has games you already have for the 5200!" They must've known that people would be angry with them for that. I just cannot believe that anyone would be that idiotic. The only logical explanation is that the 5200 NEVER did well in sales.
Coleco did not drop the CV- in mid-1984, it was over for them. Period. The ADAM computer failure bankrupted the company; in fact. only their Cabbage Patch Kids kept them alive at one point!
And I think I know why the ADAM computer was so often defective- information courtesy of one of numerous former employees who live here- they just threw together assembly lines with plywood tables, and let anyone who could learn to solder assemble them. There wasn't any effort at super-clean environments, and, worse yet, no safeguards against static electricity- a real killer.
Yet- both systems died for the same ultimate reason- incompetence on the part of the leadership. The NES benefited from good, competent leaders, and the result was Nintendo being #1 for years.
A pity. I have the CV and 5200. With a digital joystick and a paddle controller, most 5200 games are terrific. Especially Berzerk and Qix. Both systems should've stayed for a much longer period of time.
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Over the weekend, I made a few final modifications in the paddle controller.
One was adding a 33,000 OHM resistor to the horizontal circuit. This ended the problem of having to first turn the paddle all the way to the left before each game of Super Breakout. A higher resistor might have been even better, but that one (from the 1970s VCR I've been using for parts) was all I had, and I didn't feel like adding any in series. It's good enough.
The second was adding a rocker switch to where the fire buttons on the right side were, and putting the vertical circuit through it. This simulates pushing down and up on the controller, so you can shift gears on Pole Position.
The difference is something else. Although only really good for those two games, it was worth it.
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Well, it's a common statement from Atari websites to claim that "the 5200 outsold the CV at that point," but if THAT was really the case, why would Atari have dropped it when it was finally picking up some steam?
The proof against this is in garage sales. Second-hand stores. I have found at least 8 CVs that way, but only ONE 5200- and it was broken (controller plugs) at that. Even asking around, I cannot find another one.
Even Atari at its pre-Tramiel lowest would not have been stupid enough to have dumped a system that was finally getting somewhere and thus generating much needed consumer excitement. The only explanation was that 5200 sales never reached what they had hoped for.
Incidently, by the first half of 1984 the "initial wave" of CV purchases would have cooled. The 5200 never even approached the peak the CV did.
But for all of that, I'm glad I have my 5200. Even if only one of the four plugs works (player 1). I like it better than the 7800, except for Joust, and the CV version would've matched the 7800 version (well enough).
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Those are very impressive!
I like the Jaguar-to-CV conversion. If I still have that thing lying about, I think I'll try it...
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Stupidity, really.
The Atari 5200, as you all know, is really just an Atari computer minus the keyboard. It was hurried out to match the ColecoVision, which threatened Atari's position in home gaming- for example, taking away arcade licenses.
It is important to realize that although the Tramiels were real boneheads, and had planned to dump "old Atari" anyway (remember the table scene?), "old Atari" had already planned to dump the 5200 anyway, in favor of the 7800.
This was because, in spite of the pro-5200 propaganda, the ColecoVision pounded the 5200 in sales. The 5200 just didn't match Atari's expectations.
What they failed to realize was how the public would feel about it all. The 5200's official lifespan was less than 1 1/2 years. That's it. And now, they were just going to abandon the 5200 owners. And for what? The 7800, with games like Joust, Ms. Pac-Man, Robotron:2084, and Centipede. All of which had been done on the 2600 and 5200, the latter 3 good enough to stand up to the 7800 versions (Centipede on the 5200 is actually somewhat better!).
Look at the games that would have been released for the 5200: Tempest, Millipede, Super Pac-Man, and Pac-Man Jr.. If completed and released, more than a few gamers would have taken another look at the 5200, and it would have been CURRENT with the arcade scene (close enough).
A huge part of the problem were idiot Baby Boomer marketers who had no idea how the younger, game-playing generation felt. They had convinced themselves, a-la "Dilbert", that "video gaming was dead; the future is in COMPUTERS."
2008. X-Box 360 and Playstation 3. Will they NOW admit that they didn't know a damn thing?
Huh. Not likely.
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Big O, I really appreciate you having done this. Now, other people can see how they can also make their own 5200 controllers!
Thanks!
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have I so far had the best luck with the 5200 projects?
So far, I've managed to build a digital 5200 controller, and a 5200 paddle controller. For the ColecoVision, I've figured out how to use a switch to make it either a regular or "4-button" controller.
But the greatest accomplishments so far have been with a 5200.
Unless I can build the CV Slow-Fire Module.
Who else here has built hardware for the old systems? If so, what?
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We will also see one of the reasons for the extensive delay: not content with the remarkable but single-color mazes for Ms. Pac-Man, he discovers a way to make them multi-colored AND arcade-accurate at the same time, thus earning a graphics rating of either "11" or at least "10+."You have a wonderfully hyperactive imagination...
If it was about anyone other than Opcode, I'd agree with you.
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Well, it's true- neither game was bad, and with my paddle controller, I do like Super Breakout- but if anyone did, they had the 2600 version. My only guess was Atari knew that it's sales of cartridges, not consoles, that makes a company money, so by including that game people would buy a cartridge right off. Intelligent stupidity- people would feel ripped off.
Space Invaders? By itself, not bad. But the 2600 version was better, especially with the simultaneous 2-player options. And it was much closer to the arcade version in spirit. The graphics and sound were just as good, too- but the 2600 base looked better.
Atari did stumble there.
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A few days ago, I finally managed to finish a homemade 5200 paddle controller.
It uses the casing of a regular 5200 controller, but instead of a joystick, there is a paddle from what may have been an old Coleco Telstar game.
A problem was the fact that the PAUSE and RESET buttons did not work. Anyone who has ever worked with these things knows how fragile they are. I actually had to do a lot of filing to fit in some old switches from a 1970s VCR. But- it works now. Has a nice "click," too.
Still, the side buttons are a bit tough. Whatever those tiny "discs" are made of, are a problem.
Naturally, there is only one game it is meant for: Super Breakout. Now, it plays SOOOOOOO-OOOOO-OOO much better! I have managed to complete the DOUBLE and CAVITY options without the "extra tries" option (infrequently, but it happened. Couldn't do it before). Hmmm...why didn't I think of trying it out on Pole Position? Must be getting old...
Why did Atari ever design such a thing? About the only games it is any good for are (maybe) Missile Command and Star Raiders.
Interestingly enough, it seems as though Atari itself, or at least an imaginative engineer thought of this decades ago:
http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/cons...5200paddle.html
Except for the fact that mine looks older and more worn, and the paddle, mine looks much like that one.
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In all honesty, I don't think anyone will ever truly know which was better, by how much.
You have to remember that the 7800's abilities were never fully utilized. It never really got the tremendous benefits from research and Development the NES received. The NES was so well supported, it almost seemed to become a 16-Bit system at times.
But the 7800 had a terminal case of Tramielitis. I never felt as though they were serious about the 7800. Even after the terrific Tower Toppler, nothing. Where were the popular genres of games at the time (such as Lifeforce or R-Type?). Nothing.
They should have either just forgotten about it altogether, or at least tried to make it a solid second to the NES.
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Dislike? No.
But if, in 1983, Atari had 100% completed Joust- as well as Dig Dug and Pac-Man- for the ColecoVision, then I doubt I ever would've purchased one in 1988.
At the very least, it would have been less likely. I always thought of it as the System that Could Have...
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Again, I had the advantage of actually being there.
You have to keep in mind how arcade games evolved. When the 2600 came out, we were practically still in the Pong-era, with simple driving games and such. Sure, there were more advanced games, but, overall...
But arcade games evolved. Soon, no home system could really do enough to bring them home.
This is why the ColecoVision caused such a stir. When we saw photos of Ladybug, Cosmic Avenger, Smurf, etc...well, we couldn't believe it!
Naturally, Atari had to come out with something.
One problem is the fact that many games had already appeared on the 2600. The Cv had no such problem; what could you compare CV Cosmic Avenger, Ladybug, or the like to, except for the arcade versions?
But in the case of the 5200, you could compare them to the 2600 versions. And, in a few cases, THE 2600 WON!!!
Look at Super Breakout. The 2600 version used paddles. The 5200, those ridiculous joysticks. The gameplay and even sound was better on the 2600 were so much better, and the 5200 graphics weren't THAT much better.
And by the way, making Super Breakout the pack-in game was an example of intelligent stupidity. Atari knew that it's the cartridges, not the consoles, that make the money. Yet they failed to realize that you must include a popular pack-in game in order to SELL the console. Coleco did this with Donkey Kong.
But Super Breakout? Anybody who liked this game, already had the 2600 version. If Atari thought that this would make people buy an extra cartridge in addition to the 5200, well, they were wrong. People just went with the CV.
Space Invaders? Again, the 2600 version was so much better. Especially with the numerous simultaneous two-player options.
So the initial line of games lacked the excitement of the CV. Especially since the graphics in them were not so great; look at the single-colored ghosts of Pac-Man. Sure, it's a fine game, but even the CV version was better.
By the time the marketer/expert-inspired "crash" occurred (it was NOT a "glut"), the 5200 had a good collection of games, but with the head start the CV had, and the crummy 5200 controllers, it was too late. Perhaps, if Atari had gotten its act together in 1984, and stuck with the 5200, it would have made it, especially with Millipede, Tempest, and Super Pac-Man. What's more, the CV game Lord of the Dungeon proved that home video gamers could enjoy good RPGs.
But, when Atari abandoned the 5200, people were furious- the thing had an effective lifespan of less than 1 1/2 years, and Atari would've dumped it even if that disasterous summer of 1984 had not occurred that way.
Then came the (grrrrrr!) Tramiels.
First, they abandoned the 5200 AND 7800. Then, they tried to bring it out when the NES was already firmly established. With old games, no less. Then, every single time it looked like they were about to do something right, sure enough, they'd screw it up. Not to mention trying to support too many systems at once. The 7800 effort seemed quarter-hearted at best. And those racist Atarian comics did not help.
They couldn't even get the kinds of games right. What was a popular genre? Side-scrolling level/boss games. Did the 7800 have any R-Type style games? No. RPGs? Not until the very end (Midnight Mutants). Even the CV and 5200 had something here!
Knuckleheads, they were.
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In my prototype, I used 10 Ohm and 235,000 Ohm resistors.
I noticed something about a previous effort: in that one, to get the super-high resistance (for right and/or down) I merely broke the circuit altogether (near-infinite resistance).
However, this resulted in a number of cartridges being unplayable.
It wasn't until I lowered the resistance using the 235,000 Ohm ones that this was mostly solved.
I say "mostly" because my digital joystick is not 100% quirk-free.
In Ms. Pac-Man, for example, when you start the very first game, you must tap the joystick to the left. You only have to do this once; after that, as long as the cartridge is being played, you're fine.
In Kangaroo, you must tap the joystick left and then down at the very beginning; as with Ms. Pac-Man, that'll do it for the rest of the game time.
Sometimes in Defender, you must tap down. Again, just that once.
There are a number of games which do not have this minor problem: Berzerk, Pac-Man (oddly enough), Qix, Robotron: 2084, and others.
Due to the problems I encountered the first time, My guess is that the resistnaces are not quite right; for my next effort, I will use 200,000 and 100 Ohm resistors to replace the 235,000 and 10 Ohm resistors.
Also keep in mind that this is a digital joystick. You cannot play Missile Command or Super Breakout with it. Some games, like Star Raiders, Centipede, and Pole Position, will be a bit awkward, since the regular 5200 joystick allowed some subtleties you cannot get from a digital joystick.
But that aside, even with its quirks, it's good. My scores in a number of games, especially Berzerk, are improved- I broke 20,000 points with it!
But all in all, it was certainly worth the effort. Back in happier times, I used to enjoy games like Berzerk, Qix, Defender, Pengo, etc. When I found that Atari 5200, along with a number of games and instruction booklets(!) at that 1998 townwide garage sale, I purchased it. Unfortunately, it was broken: the plug for controller #1 was not intact. It took some effort moving one of the other jacks to that one, but it was satisfying enough at the end. To have heard "Chicken! Fight like a robot!" for the first time in years was terrific.
It was a good system. But why did Atari not come out with digital controllers immediately? If I could build one, then what stopped them from what was an obviously necessary project?
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First, my apologies- above I said 435,000 Ohms; it should be 235,000 Ohms.
Second, good news- I am sending out the plans today! Thanks to Big O, they will soon be here!
One of them is a very simple plan, using only a few simple parts: a bit of wire, a 235,000 Ohm (or even a 200,000 Ohm) resistor, a 10 Ohm resistor, and a variable resitor, if not from a 5200 controller, then one of, say, 500,000 Ohms.
Since I do not know when I will next be here, I will give the text explanation in advance...
In this set-up, you are using the BROWN and BLACK wires from the 5200 controller. This controls the HORIZONTAL movement. Thus, Missile Command or Super Breakout can be used as test cartridges.
Keep in mind the following:
1) Electricity flows from negative to positive and,
2) Electricity always chooses the path of least restance. If you split a wire in two, connect a 100 Ohm resistor to one of them but nothing to the other, and then join the two wires together again, the current will not flow across the resistor; it will go across the other wire.
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Upon setting this up...
First, adjust the variable resistor until the paddle or crosshairs is centered horizontally. This is your NEUTRAL value, as if the joystick was centered. The current goes from the black wire through the twisted-together wire (simulating the "NORMALLY CLOSED" button) and through the variable resistor (path "A").
To simulate pushing LEFT, touch the ends of that broken wire together. This creates a "parallel resistor" set-up with the variable resistor and the 10 Ohm resistor- the result being a much, much lower resistance (as explained above). It would be close to 10 Ohms.
Be sure to disconnect them again when you are done "pushing left."
To simulate pushing RIGHT, disconnect the twisted-together wire. This simulates pushing down on the NORMALLY CLOSED button, which breaks the current. The only way the current can flow now is to go through the 235,000 (or 200,000) Ohm resistor (path "C"), IN ADDITION to the variable resistor (a "series resistor" set-up). This boosts the overall resistance in the circuit.
That's all there is to it! The tricky part is actually building or modifying a joystick...
Time's up for today. Good luck!
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I'd have to say...the Atari 5200.
This is probably because I was around in those days.
It has to do with "current."
The Atari 5200 came out in later 1982. What games did it offer at first and over the next year or so? Games like Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Pengo, Joust, Robotron: 2084, Gyruss, Blueprint, Frogger, Qix, Berzerk, Space Dungeon, etc.
The Atari 7800, even in the more prosperous and populated area I used to live in, did not really make any sort of an appearance until 1988. In Kay-Bee Toys, no less. But even if we say 1987, what games did it offer? Why, Ms. Pac-Man, Centipede, Joust, Asteroids, Robotron: 2084, etc.
See the problem?
The games for the 5200 were recent and relative in its time. The games for the 7800 were by then dated, by which I mean that they were older and usually already done. What was one of the most exciting things about having a home system? When a cool-new-great arcade game was coming home. The 5200 had plenty of that; the 7800, very, very little.
And when you see the 5200 that nearly was- Millipede, Tempest, Super Pac-Man, etc.- it would have been an even more uneven fight. Especially since games like Robotron: 2084, Ms. Pac-Man, and Centipede just weren't much better on the 7800- in fact, I liked the 5200 Centipede better, as it was more like the arcade in appearance, and had the Trak-Ball.
Hell, if the CV versions of Joust, Dig-Dug, and Pac-Man had only been completed 100%, then the first two would've easily equaled the 7800 versions!
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Help on 5200
I'm trying to make a Arcade Style Atari 5200 Controller, but don't know how to convert the digital signal of microswitches to analog. Can you help me?
Fred
Manaus - Amazonas - Brazil
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Hello!
First, I'm sorry for the delay- I do not have a computer myself, and so must use the ones at the library. At this time of year, it may be several weeks before I can do this (the winters up here are TERRIBLE).
From your question, I assume that you are trying to build a controller yourself.
The one thing you have to keep in mind is that when you move the stick on a 5200, you are turning little "potentiometers"- variable resistors. This increases or decreases the resistance of them.
Look at it like this- do you remember the paddle controllers for the old Atari VCS (2600)? remember how they were a pair you'd plug into one controller jack?
Now, think of Breakout. You'd turn the controller to move the paddle left and right. Now, imagine if by turning the OTHER controller, you could move it up and down, too.
That is EXACTLY how a 5200 controller works.
When you turn the paddle, you are changing the resistance in the potentiometer in the controller- that's all that it is. As the resistance changes, the paddle moves to a different place.
Now, think of that paddle all the way to the left, all the way to the right, and in the very middle. If you made a controller with 3 buttons, each one a FIXED resistor with the correct value, you'd get the paddle to go to those 3 places by pushing those buttons.
That's the heart of my controller design- if you read the text of my controller post, you'll notice that what I did was to design a controller that does something like the above.
The 5200 potentiometers I use in my design you adjust until you get a "neutral" value- I use Missile Command. I adjust both potentiometers until the crosshairs (the +) is smack-dab in the center of the screen. When you've done this, the resistances in BOTH circuits are exactly what they'd be in a regular 5200 controller if the stick is centered.
Now, what my joystick does is, when you want to move UP or LEFT, a fixed resistor is added in a "parallel" set-up. This DECREASES the resistance in the circuit, which moves you up or down.
What gave me trouble was the DOWN and RIGHT. The only way to do this was with a button that works opposite of a normal one- this actually COMPLETES the circuit when you are NOT pressing it! (It's called a "Normally CLOSED" switch).
When you pull DOWN or to the RIGHT, my joystick presses down on these buttons. The regular circuit is broken, forcing the current to go through a fixed resistor with a high resistance (in my prototype, 235,000 OHMS).
That's the trick I use- those peculiar buttons.
I am going to respond to that person who has offered to post my plans right now- soon, you will be able to see them, and that will explain it all clearly.
Good luck!
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We finally see Opcode's CV Pac-Man Collection.
We will also see one of the reasons for the extensive delay: not content with the remarkable but single-color mazes for Ms. Pac-Man, he discovers a way to make them multi-colored AND arcade-accurate at the same time, thus earning a graphics rating of either "11" or at least "10+."
Hopefully, more people will be able to purchase more homebrews, thus giving programmers incentive to keep making them!
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I do have the plans (diagrams) for my version drawn up; I just do not have a scanner, or access to one. Therefore, I'd have to mail off copies to someone who does, so he can put them up here. But so far, nobody has ever expressed any interest in doing so.
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My second 5200 controller project was a paddle controller (for Super Breakout). It was actually easy to build.
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To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers
in Homebrew Discussion
Posted
Still, the worst thing that can happen to homebrewers is people not purchasing their games. It takes considerable effort to make just one of them- programming (not always easy on an emulator!), circuit boards, etc...."flamers" can be disregarded, but going through all of that effort and not making any money- or even losing money!- is much worse.
This year I resolved to purchase at least 3 homebrew games.
This includes you, Opcode! Will Pac-man Collection be ready this year? If so- count me in!