CV Gus

There are lots of games on the 7800 that show this. The problem was the same for the 7800. How many times are you going to retread this same "give me a comparison thread"???? Surely it must be at least 3 dozen times by now ...? Because nobody has given such a comparison, in such terms. If giving technical terms, those should be explained in a "what it means is..." way. Side-by side images would be nice, too. But static and "active" images are two different things; such images would have to be applicable, not just for show.

I agree... Thanks for the time spent, CV Gus. It really adds to the memories. I DID remember the magazines criticizing the joysticks. However, I agree with Mirage that people weren't used to them. I also think that the general public were like sheep. I think the magazines psyched people out from getting used to something new. My friends and I NEVER had any trouble getting used to them. I never had trouble finding my way around a Pac-Man maze, etc. I think it was just a bunch of unskilled gamers writing articles and leading the public. The BIG problem was that they were unreliable. So, that reinforced the negativity of the media. Oh, no, even back then, most people I knew couldn't stand them. Trust me- I've had a 5200 for over 12 years now, and I still can't make sharp moves with regular 5200 controllers.

Having owned a 7800 since 1988, and a 5200 since 1998, I just can't shake the feeling, playing the games, that the 7800 just isn't really a big step away from the 5200 or CV. It seems at best that the one thing the 7800 could do better than most systems, at least from its time, is move large numbers of objects around in Asteroids-style games, although Xevious implies otherwise. But overall, the colors seemed duller than those for the 5200. The problem with comparing the two directly, stat for stat, is that that doesn't mean too much. Who would've thought the CV capable of Newcoleco's Ghostblaster? Or the 2600 of Robot Tank? That was one problem both the CV and 5200 had: unlike the NES or 2600, neither system really had enough time for programmers to become skilled enough to push their limitations. I guess the only way would be for two or more pros who KNOW both systems to explain what each could do based on genre- and how much better, if at all. Can anyone here, in plain English (my skill was with Commodore computers), give a 7800 vs. 5200 comparison? Leave out sound; we KNOW the 5200 wins there. It should be based on scrolling games, Asteroid/Space Duel games, one-on-one fighters, etc.

The whole point about the above posts was this: the 5200 controllers were not what you'd call overly popular back then, or even in later years. In a way, one has to wonder what Atari was thinking. Didn't they actually test the controllers with the kind of games the 5200 would have? If most arcade games back then used analog controllers like that, then it might have worked. But the fact is, almost none of them did, and those that did use analog usually used paddle or steering wheel (often the same thing) controls. All else used digital controls. Thus, for the precise moves such games required, analog controllers like the 5200's could only be a disaster. The CV's controllers weren't great, but they were digital, and that one single point alone gave the CV a tremendous advantage in gameplay. But there was more. With the CV, almost any 9-pin controller would work, so all you had to do was plug it in- and since, unlike the 5200, you could usually select a game using Controller 2, the lack of a keypad was no problem, assuming the game itself did not need it. Had Atari released the 5200 with digital controllers, it would have helped. And since a paddle adapter is easy to make, that would have scored with games like Super Breakout and Pole Position. And by the way- today I sent away for Pengo (it's been many years) and Jungle Hunt...for the 5200. `nuff said.

Last, this is Electronic Games: September 1984. The very next page, about the 7800, went on to further bash the 5200 controllers!

Electronic Games: July 1984. It's not so much the letter writer's comment about the 5200 controllers, but what he points out about EG's own columns. Add those to it overall. And no, it is NOT a "stupidsystem," although one might have applied that to a certain bunch in Atari back then...

Now this one is from Electronic Games: November 1984. It's actually an article about the Atari 7800, but notice the comment about the 5200 controllers...

From Electronic Fun (With Computers and Games): November 1983 A review for 5200 Ms. Pac-Man, and an all-too-typical complaint...

This is from Electronic Games: March 1984.

From Next Generation: March 1996. Note that in later years the 5200 controllers were being bashed- and Arnie Katz was a veteran reviewer.

Cool, but do you have any from the '80s talking negatively about the controllers? '96 is a bit late! EDIT: Still, thanks for the article, I've never seen that one. I am uploading more as we speak.

Here are a few magazine articles about the 5200 and its controllers... This is from Intelligent Gamer: August 1996

Awesome game. I reviewed it at the Digital Press.

Mr. Do! Omega Race Space Fury Donkey Kong Donkey Kong Jr. Zaxxon Roc `N Rope Buck Rogers: Planet of Zoom Popeye Burgertime Q*Bert Frogger Victory Defender Centipede

lol, way to throw cold water on the thread. Yes, it's an armchair CEO thread. So what? Jack Tramiel got some things right (re-introduction of 2600 into the market, introduction of 7800) and some things wrong (not securing exclusivity for Atari Games IPs in the home consumer market, XEGS long term). This topic is no better or worse than post-game analysis of any sport contest. Should we simply cease from discussion, analysis, speculation, and critique of a coach's (or manager's) moves in a soccer, football, or baseball game? No. It's part of the fun. Or are you one of those that believe that such speculative topics should never be around because, "oh, we weren't in that position so how would we know"? As silly as these topics may be, sillier still is criticism of them based on the idea that we have no right to such things "because we weren't there and weren't in charge". I was around while this was happening- right from the first articles about the 7800. Therefore, for me, what had happened back then was in the present. Most of the replies here are accurate. Atari released the 7800 several years after it was supposed to have been released, after the NES was going, and in spite of the overpowering strengths of the NES, all stupid Tramiel-Atari ever gave the 7800 was weak, cheap, scattershot, pathetic support. I bought one in 1988, and every time it looked like Atari might finally get something right, sure enough Atari would drop the ball. It lacked the skillful leadership of the NES, the marketing talent, the RESEARCH AND DEVELOPEMENT, the third-party support, the genres so popular back then (like RPGs and side-scrollers), it was hopeless- the CV or the 5200 would have put up a better fight, and quite frankly, the 7800 wasn't really much better than either of those earlier systems.

Lighten up, it's just an opinion. I myself hate both controllers but to be honest I do find the Colecovision controllers do tend to work and last longer. Sure they still suck and hurt your hand after a while (Damn that knob on top) but most Coleco controllers I get even second hand work or only require an easy fix I can do myself. The 5200 controllers on the other hand most of the time used one are not funtional at all or only partially functional, are harder to repair properly and require more maintenance and care overall, more expensive and harder to find functional. So no I would not say the Colecovision controllers are "Just as awful" We all go by our own experiences right? Oh and I would take the Intellivision controllers over the 7800 as well, but hey, that's just me. LOL! I thought that *was* being light! Especially considering someone who has "CV" in their username, has an obvious bias towards the coleco and says they had to "go through so much trouble repairing" the system (really? is there some infamous problem with the system I've never heard of?), calls the 5200 controllers "AWFUL". I was drawing a comparison to the futility of that label is all. Yes it's no secret the 5200 controllers are prone to not working after 25+ years. does that alone make them "Awful"? No, it certainly doesn't. If that one attribute were the standard by which controllers are measured then yes. Absolutely. 100%. Suck. Fortunately that's not the only thing. I have had to: 1) Cross-wire Port 1 to Port 2, since the ports were all broken...except for Port 2 as soon as I bought it back in 1998. 2) Replace one of the chips in it when controls no longer worked, and all tests indicated that it was in the 5200. You know how much studying schematics and testing I had to do to narrow it down to that chip? 3) Replace that final port when it gave out, order four plugs, and solder the whole works in. 4) CONSTANTLY repair the 5200 controllers, especially using the "glue and foil" method. 5) Repair that switch box several times. The CV, by comparison, has given me less trouble, and I've had it twice as long. And back in the 1980s (I was there) you CONSTANTLY heard complaints about the controllers- especially in magazines like Electronic Games. They were far more likely to break down far more often, even after a short time, and analog controllers for digital games were just too clumsy. I managed to score 24,210 points in Berzerk only because I used my digital controller. My 28+ year old CV controllers still work nicely, and are easy to maintain.

I'll be blunt about the 5200: Overall, I always liked the CV more- but there're reasons why the 5200 is hooked up right next to the CV, and why I've gone through so much trouble repairing it. They include: Berzerk Qix Defender Blue Print Gyruss Pengo Space Dungeon Robotron: 2084 Pac-Man Ms. Pac-Man Star Raiders Miner 2049'er Centipede Pole Position Super Breakout (I built a paddle controller) The controllers were AWFUL, but it would have been so easy for Atari to produce digital controllers for it- I built one myself, and I do not have the resources they did. A simple plug-in adapter for 2600 paddle controllers would also have been easy- the two could have been combined into one. Tempest, Super Pac-Man, Millipede, and other games would have made it even better, especially since they had access to Atari computer games and they had their own arcade division to draw upon. Good as the CV was, in effect ALL of their arcade games were "third party" in a way. Wonder how a 5200 Major Havoc or Zybots would have looked... How much better would Joust, Dig Dug, and others had looked for the 5200? The CV versions look great, and they weren't even completed yet! I will maintain that the 7800 project should have been abandoned at that point. They should have stuck with the 5200 longer, and when finally it could no longer hold up, THEN a "7800" would have been appropriate- and of course, it would have been improved.

In a word: EVERYTHING.

One of the things that did in the 5200, even more than the CV, which beat it in sales, was... The 2600. The problem the 5200 had was that a number of its games had a "been there, done that" feel to them. With the CV, although some of the games were not what you'd call arcade hits- Ladybug and Cosmic Avenger, for example- they'd never appeared on a home version before, and they looked much better than the first 5200 games. Right off the bat, Atari blew it by including Super Breakout as the pack-in game. That was sheer stupidity; anyone who liked that 1970s game already had it for the 2600, and with the paddles, the 2600 actually played better. Space Invaders was another example. The 2600 version was actually better than the 5200 version; why didn't Atari make it as arcade close as possible? You also have to remember that Atari was supporting an arcade division, the 2600 (which didn't help the 5200), a number of computers, and the 5200. That was spreading it a bit thin. The controllers were a bad joke. The 5200 is a good system, and I like it better than the 7800, but I'm beginning to wonder, based on later years, if Atari just got lucky with the 2600. Their boneheaded decisions, like dumping the 5200 after just 18 months and betting people would just accept that and go with the 7800, which had the same games (mostly) seen before on the 2600 AND 5200 AND computers, was sheer stupidity. They should NOT have dumped it, but instead come out with games like Millipede, Super Pac-Man, and of course, Tempest.

Yes, the controllers do stink. They are awful. But the 5200 itself is a good system, and I do like it better than the 7800, though not as much as the CV. Here's some reasons why it's good: Berzerk: It TALKS, and it is the best home version around. I recently scored 24,150! Qix: Ah, the early 1980s...the store across from the high school. There it was, a weird but wonderful game. This is a dead-on version, and even better with its difficulty levels. Defender: Another winner, and a superb, colorful version. Blueprint: This version relies too much on luck, but the odd charm of the arcade sleeper is still here. Robotron: 2084: Yes, it's not as smooth as the 7800 version, and lacks the color green, but the sound is much better, as are the explosions. It's a fine version itself. AND- it lets you fire while standing still with one joystick. Ms. Pac-Man: Why the maze colors between 1 and 3 and 2 and 4 are not more distinct, I don't know, but it easily holds up to the 7800 version. Pac-Man: Single-colored ghosts, and not as good as the CV versions, but it has the arcade magic. Super Breakout: They must have been really stupid, using this as the pack-in, but beyond that, it's a fantastic version of the 1970s classic(s). If you have a paddle controller- and they are easy to build or adapt- you have the arcade version. Baseball: It talks, and is as good as many others in later years. Star Raiders: Primitive graphics, true- but the best action and animation for years. A classic that's stood the test of time. Pengo: Another dead-on conversion. Penguins! Bees! Ice Cubes! Space Dungeon: Strange, little-known arcade game gets new life with this great version. Super Pac-Man: Why didn't Atari forget the 7800 for a while and go with this? Oh- because they were idiots. Centipede: Better than the 7800 version. If you have the trac-ball, you have the arcade version. Homebrews: check them out.

A likely reason is that, in those days, Parker Bros. were producing games in many formats. This would force them to cut corners and be hurried. It's interesting to compare the looks of the earlier games, like Popeye, Q*Bert, and Frogger, to games like Mr. Do!'s Castle, Tutankham, and Q*Bert's Qubes.

Couldn't you just solder batter holders to the existing wires? It doesn't matter if the batteries are "D" or "C" cells, they could just as easily be "AA," if that would fit.

I too have been waiting years for this game, and so far this looks good! It's great that so many games that should have been released but never were now finally are. Keep it up! Hopefully, my financial situation will improve soon, and I can actually buy a few of these homebrews!

Just played Pac-Man Plus last night, and it's as fantastic as ever. This cartridge is a masterpiece; who would've thought a CV could do it?