CV Gus

T`was no myth, my friend. Reported back in those days- I kept up with it, remember- that Atari, for whatever reason, was disappointed with the way the 5200 sold, and decided to go with the 7800 project. They weren't going to dump the 2600. It was doing too well, and the idea of supporting THREE systems at once was too ludicrous even for Atari. So it was either the 5200 or the 7800; they dumped the 5200. Now, there was a rumor floating around that the 5200 was released ONLY to intercept the CV- that the as-then unprepared 7800 was supposed to have been Atari's next system! Since it was backward compatible with the 2600, this gives that rumor some credibility. Why wouldn't a 1982 system be, yet a 1984 system would? But, before anyone replies to that last one, yes, it was JUST a rumor, and no, it's never been proven. Still, I use the mentioned games only as reference- that's all I can do. Over at the DP, right now there is a topic about the 7800. Part of it is much like the "NES vs. 7800" thread here some time ago. It seems as though in the case of games requiring extensive backgrounds, the 7800 loses much of its advantage, even against earlier consoles like the CV and 5200. So overall- and keep "overall" in mind- was the 5200 even that far behind the 7800? Certainly it pounded the 7800 with sound capabilities. And quite frankly the colors with the 5200 were more, well, "alive" than the 7800's.

Not quite a valid point, though. The CV does have a four-screen version of Donkey Kong Jr., for example- while "rough around the edges" (where is the sound when you jump over something, the way DK looks as you are freeing him), it does show that the CV could have released a complete version. But what I'm getting at here is this: unlike Coleco, which was not going to dump the CV, Atari had planned to dump the 5200 all along in favor of the 7800. The Crash did not matter- the 5200 was doomed. Period. But my reason for these kind of posts is this... The Atari 2600 (VCS) came out in the 1970s. By the time 1982 rolled around, arcade games- the main reason people bought home systems, for home versions- were beyond the 2600's practical limits. Zaxxon? Robotron? You get the idea. So, in late 1982, we got the 5200 (well, maybe you did, we got a CV, but it was the same idea, really). Now, according to the video game magazines of the time, the 7800 was to have been released around the same time the 5200 was, only in 1984. So by the longest stretch, you're talking about maybe two years. 1982-1984. You see where I'm going with this, don't you? Was there really any point to the 7800? If you look at games like Pengo for the 5200, which is truly spectacular, or games like Ballblazer, was the 7800 really THAT far ahead? If in the hands of a truly talented 5200 programmer, could it have done versions of Joust, Dig Dug, Food Fight, Desert Falcon, Galaga, and even later games, that would have been much less than 7800 versions? It's not like comparing a 2600 to a 5200, is it? Look at the CV versions of games like Joust, Galaxian, the unfinished Dig Dug (which would have had much less flickering, as shown by Opcode's PMC) and Opcode's Pac-Man Collection, or Newcoleco's Ghostblaster. These tend to stand up to 7800 games, even if there is a bit of flicker. So why not the 5200? Did it ever even get a real chance to show what it could have done? Are there any examples of what the 5200 could have done? If so, then where? I'd like to see them. Just as there are improved versions of Pac-Man for the 2600.

Sadly, no. Nor have I played any 5200 homebrews. Since the 5200 was only around for about 1 1/2 years, it hardly had a chance for the "learning curve" to improve. Even taking into account its close relationship with the Atari 400 computer. Consider what the 2600 was doing in 1983 as opposed to 1978. So what COULD the 5200 have done, both with its own games (e.g. Joust and Pac-Man), and games seen on the 7800, such as Alien Brigade and Sirius?

I am looking forward to this game. Will it have voice synthesis? Will it require the "super module?"

On Youtube, I recently saw Joust, and a few other games I don't have (but will try to get). Now, I'm thinking about games on the 7800 like: Joust. Xevious. Desert Falcon. Galaga. Especially the first two: just how good a version COULD the 5200 have done? Primarily graphics, although with Joust the gameplay was a bit off, too. Any 5200 programming pros with any demonstration screens/screenshots here? How about with Kangaroo and Vanguard? I've seen the Atari computer version of Donkey Kong, so I assume the 5200 would have been almost identical? In that case, superior to the 7800 version. I ask because again, I just cannot- after over two decades- shake the feeling that the 7800 just wasn't that big a leap from the 5200, especially when I see games like Pengo.

What I don't get is this- if I make the screen go dark for 1/10th of a second- however you'd do that on a CV- and then show the block for 1/10th of a second- and again, it may be something other than that, this is just an example- wouldn't an LCD television reflect this? I know how older televisions work, but wouldn't an LCD be even faster? Otherwise, could any older system work at all? What about flickering and the like? In any case, it wouldn't be a big deal: just figure what timing adjustments have to be made for both kinds of televisions, and incorporate that into the program. Then, at the title screen, simply ask what kind of television is being used, and then use the numbers for that. I hope?

I've had my Burgertime cartridge since 1984. A couple of them, in fact. They ALL have the problem you've described. It isn't anything you're doing, or the controller- it is clearly a bug in the program itself. You're also not the only one who has mentioned this. So that shows that it is widespread.

IT WAS THE POKEY CHIP!!! My 5200 works once again! Man, when that cursor moved properly in Missile Command, it was just plain great!

In concept yes. However, the refresh rates are different for modern TV's, i.e. LCD refreshes the entire screen at once. That's why the NES gun games and other guns that use the same concept, still don't work on modern TV's. Now if you're coding a game from scratch for the CV, there is a chance you can get the right timing working, and I'd be very interested to know if you do. That is one reason I'm keeping it simple. Logically, a programmer could allow the option of asking what kind of television you are using. Press 1 or 2. Then key parts of the program would reflect this, maybe a couple of numbers. Remember that my gun does NOT go by scan rate; only by whether or not it's pointing at a light source- or not. The heart of the gun is as simple as a 1970s gun. If the screen goes dark for a split second and then shows a white square- and this is based on the game program (1/10 of a second is 1/10 of a second no matter what), then it should work. Would HOW the images are presented matter, as long as the timings are the same? But until I get a Vic-20, I cannot give it the final test and fine-tuning.

It was the POKEY chip. Yesterday, I received one from Mike's Arcade. My 5200, with a bit of extra work, now works just fine. Some good news for this place! Welcome back, 5200.

In a way, the title here is a bit misleading: it should actually read "Could the 5200 have been saved from Atari?" Many people over the years, because it's been 26 years (oh, man...), are under the impression that the 5200 was ruined by the marketer-inspired crash of 1984. Maybe not here, for obvious reasons, but elsewhere, well... The one thing that must be kept in mind at all times is that no outside factor doomed the 5200. Atari itself pulled the plug on the 5200 months before the crash of 1984. Crash or no crash, Tramiel or no Tramiel, NES or no NES, it was over for the 5200. Atari dumped it for their 7800 project. The crash simply stalled that part, nothing more. While there is no doubt that the CV played a role in that decision- it may have been a combination of CV and 2600. The 2600 was the absolute #1 console for years. It received massive support from all directions, and was the undisputed king of the home consoles. Period. Nothing even really approached it. So Atari had perhaps gotten used to being #1? So when the CV outsold the 5200, and the 5200 was not going to be the #1 system of its generation, maybe Atari was not satisfied. Since the 5200 and the CV were, overall, pretty much equal, maybe they had the idea that if the 7800 was superior to the 5200, thus being superior to the CV, they could regain the #1 spot. It would have been a technonerd decision, simply basing everything on technology and nothing else. Sadly, it is possible. Look- had the 7800 come out in late 1984, and in early 1984 it would have seemed that only the CV was a factor, Atari would have had the technically superior system, and games like Joust and Dig Dug were better-looking than those for other versions. So from that limited viewpoint, it made some sense. But what else was there? There was the CV, with a large number of games, a number of them about as good-looking as those for the 7800, with an established base of several million. It had a good deal of third-party support, too. And, in spite of the (CENSORED) ADAM computer, Coleco wasn't dumping the CV. There were also the 5200 owners, who of course were perfectly willing to abandon their investment, the 5200, in favor of the 7800, with its initial library of Joust, Dig Dug, Ms. Pac-Man, and...hey, wait a minute, I'VE ALREADY GOT THEM!! And of course one can trust a company that just dumps its customers after no more than a year and a half. The 7800 was likely doomed, too. Yesterday, I received my POKEY chip from Mike's Arcade (superb service). Removed the old one, put in the new one, brought the dismantled works down, tried it- it worked. Put the whole works back together, soldered some heavy wire in the switch box- that got it. Spent several hours playing Missile Command, Berzerk, Defender, Robotron: 2084, QIX, Wizard of Wor, Star Raiders, Blueprint, Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Zaxxon, Centipede (needs a trak-ball), and even Mario Bros. and Space Invaders. Must try to get Super Pac-Man, Pengo, and Space Dungeon. Also have to get some 15-pin plugs for it, too. Played some 7800 games. Once again, I much prefer the 5200. It's hard to describe why- there's just something about the 5200 that, well, just WORKS better than the 7800, that's all. When Atari dumped the 5200, they sealed their own fates in the home market. Coleco didn't bring them down, and neither did Nintendo or Sega. Atari did, and long before the Tramiels ever entered that picture. It was over in early 1984. I'll maintain to my dying day that had Atari stuck with the 5200, concentrating on it with Tempest, Super Pac-Man, Millipede, Xevious, and the like, using the learning curve, then they would have had a decent chance. Just as Coleco should have forgotten about that (DOUBLE CENSORED) ADAM. Still, in a way, the 5200 has been saved. I needed a POKEY chip- I was able to get one, in 2010. Super Pac-Man and Millipede are available, as are a number of transfers and homebrews. I myself have posted detailed plans on how to build a digital controller, and hope to have an adapter ready this year. Parts are available. A lesson for Generation X and Y. If anything is going to get done these days, we're going to have to do it. 0

By releasing some decent DIGITAL controllers, for starters. Maybe an adapter to allow use of 2600 paddle controllers on the 5200? It's incredibly easy to build. By releasing games like Super Pac-Man, Xevious, Galaga, Millipede, and of course, TEMPEST!!! Not to mention an RPG or two. Why not Space Duel, too? And improving on what the 5200 could do. They did it with the 2600, after all. Would it have been cheaper to program improved versions of Dig Dug and Joust, and then maybe allow a good discount in exchange for the old copies? Sort of give the 5200 what the 7800 was starting with, maybe. And... Most Importantly... NOT LISTENING TO A BUNCH OF MORONIC KNOW-NOTHING EXPERTS WHO CLAIMED VIDEO GAMING WAS DEAD IN 1984, AND STILL WON"T ADMIT THEY WERE WRONG IN SPITE OF THE X-BOX 360 AND PLAYSTATION 3 IN 2010!!!

Granted, the 5200 was an Atari computer at heart- but did the computers use 5200 cartridges, or the 5200 controller? Did the 5200 have a keyboard? Nope. So it was different enough. And every bit of money and manpower applied in one area is that much less that can be applied elsewhere, unless you hire more people, at which point a cost/benefit ratio comes into play. Atari was also notoriously reckless with spending, which did not help things. The crummy controllers were another problem. What possessed Atari to come up with a controller that could neither satisfy digital games nor trak-ball games is anyone's guess. Why do you think 5200 owners are after digital controllers, adapters, or designs for them? I built my own digital controller, as well as a paddle controller, and I can assure you that the difference is night and day! 5200 games, especially those like Qix and Berzerk, are so much better. Better. Which could only have helped 5200 sales. I liked the 5200. True, I preferred the CV, but if I had an opportunity to play Qix or Berzerk, or Robotron: 2084, on a friend's 5200 (few as the 5200 owners seemed to be...), hell, I took it. If money had allowed, I'd have purchased to both of them. Why do you think I'm spending $15.00 for a crummy chip to fix the thing? The 5200 had the advantages of momentum from Atari's glory days, and an intact Atari- so it was fair to assume that an Atari arcade game could become a 5200 game. The same was no longer true for the 7800. But for the reasons I stated above, it was doomed to failure. Look- the 7800 was supposed to have been released in late 1984 (I still have the old magazines). But what was Atari hoping to do? Most of its initial games were the same as the 5200's, or what SHOULD have been on a 5200. Those games did not sway CV owners, or they would have been 5200 owners (obviously). 5200 owners chose those games- which is why they were 5200 owners. But didn't Atari think that 5200 owners would be a bit miffed at having their 5200 abandoned after just 1 1/2 years? Just to buy a system that offered the same games, even if they looked better? This was not consumer choice; this was a company TELLING people what to do. "We don't care what YOU want, WE are telling you that if you want to stick with us, you'd best buy a 7800!" (Snooty voice). That last point is very, very crucial to this whole subject- it cannot be measured by bytes, RAM, ROM, resolution, number of colors...it deals with human resentment and loyalty. Atari offered excellent, long-lasting 2600 support, which was one reason it did so well. The 5200 did not get this. Coleco messed up VERY badly with the ADAM (grrrrr!), true, but at no time did they tell CV owners that they'd have to dump their CVs- they themselves simply went under. There's the difference- surely Coleco did not want to lose out with CV owners by going under. Whether or not Atari split up or not, whether or not it was "old" Atari or Tramiel Atari, did not matter. The 5200 was deliberately doomed. That resentment would have hurt the 7800 even in 1984. Did the 5200 have that problem in 1982? Maybe yes, in some cases, but by 1982 the 2600 could not handle what the arcades now offered. That was just the way it went. A new, more advanced system was needed- and so, the 5200. We understood this. And if not the 5200, the CV. I guess that the leap from 2600 to 5200 looked much more important than the one from 5200 to 7800. Imagine the 5200 being released with digital controllers and Pac-Man. Imagine by 1984 Tempest, Millipede, Super Pac-Man, and others. Absolutely it could have been saved. Just as the CV could have been. By the way- would 5200 owners have liked light gun games?

The white square part would be the "1970s" phase of the actual test. At first, it would merely be to see if you can "shoot" it, but- as with those 1970s games- pointing the gun at ANY light source will do it. That is why it would be just be the initial phase. The second part would use the "dark/light" phase, much like an NES light gun game. The screen would go black for a split-second, then the square would show up where it was- if the game reads "nothing" and then "hit" in that quick time, then it can assume that you were actually pointing the gun at the target. If both conditions are NOT met (such as pointing the gun at a light bulb), then it will not count. The third part will be like the NES games. Fancy background, etc...But did you ever PAUSE an NES game like Duck Hunt at just the right instant? What happens? All you see is a white block. Then (in two-target mode) the same cycle again as it tests for the second target. For all of the sound and graphics, at heart it's very much like the 1970s games! So far, because a CV does not have analog, I set it up so that it is digital, using the directional contacts. If the gun is pointing at a light source, it is as if you are pushing UP on the joystick. The actual trigger mechanism would be as if you are pushing a FIRE button; this tells the game to go into the part that checks for a hit. So I am testing to see what the game is reading...by using Gateway to Apshai. The 5200 version would likely simply use an analog comparison- does the value drop and then rise? Easy enough to check for this on a Vic-20; the values can be placed in a corner on the screen. Oh, get this: Part of the test involved clipping the wires from the gun to a multitester...and shining a spot of light on the wall, and then the television, with a white LED flashlight. Don't you folks just love my ultra-sophisticated testing methods?

There were several basic reasons why the 5200 did not do as well as the CV, or as well as Atari had hoped: 1) The CV had a head start of several months on it. This was much more important than it might seem in 2010. 2) The CV included Donkey Kong; the 5200, Super Breakout. 3) Most of the 5200 games had a "been there, done that" feel. Which leads us to... 4) THE 2600. Atari's 5200 was up against Atari's 2600, which was still strong. Had the 5200 been directly compatible with 2600 games- as was the 7800, mostly- it would have helped. I guess people prefer not to have to deal with modules, especially "within the same company." 5) Atari in those days had to support arcade games, several computers, the 2600, and the 5200. That was spreading it pretty thin. 6) Atari failed to realize that just because, unlike the unbeaten 2600, the 5200 was not #1, it did not mean that it was a failure. Had they stuck with it, especially in view of some of those great unreleased games, then it would have been fairly successful. The CV did NOT beat the 5200 as badly as the 7800 was beaten by the NES; the 5200 was respectable. Yes, it could have been saved. The 5200 was the victim of short-sightedness, impatience, the stupidity of believing "experts" who claimed that video gaming was dead, and a total disregard for their customers- the 5200 owners. I should be getting my new POKEY chip anytime now. Hopefully, then I can repair my own 5200. Then, I'll try the new lightgun design for it. Maybe we'll see lightgun games for it?

Got it- well, by at least 95%. Probably part of the problem is that it is just a mess of wires, alligator clips, and twisted-together wires. And merely touching the base of a transistor can trigger a current. But it does now work. I'm going to go to a second-hand place up on the "other hill" to see if they still have the old Vic-20s. I can properly test the gun with one of those, since I did used to program on Commodore computers. Question: If this thing does ultimately work as it should...are there any CV programmers interested in programming lightgun games for it? P.S.- The new design should make it work all the better for a 5200, too. Much more so.

Having designed and built a 5200 lightgun prototype, I'm now working on a CV one. It too uses an NES lightgun, although you wouldn't recognize the insides. The trick is that the CV does not have analog readings, as do the 2600, 5200, and 7800. Or the Commodore computers. So far, the second prototype does work- but too well. The problem is "stored current" in the gun. Even disconnecting all capacitors does not help. The problem is by 1/2 second to 1 second. Among some ideas I'm going to try is an LED to "eat up" the excess current. The gun, as with the 1970s light guns, works directly on dark/light tests, so the problems I've heard about with modern televisions should not exist here. The dark/light test would be used in any games this would use; otherwise, pointing the gun at a lamp or reflection would count as a hit- just like some of those pre-programmable games of the 1970s. What's holding me up is a total lack of money, and a lack of materials. I literally have to use some junk I have lying around. And to test the gun's readings, I might use Ghostblaster on pause, or Choplifter!- after hitting the RESET button quickly, so the white chopper is all that's left.

It's hard to guess from the tech specs what exactly this thing can do- how about a basic comparison? How would it compare to, say, an NES or SMS? Maybe a Genesis, or somewhere between an NES and Genesis? Overall, that is.

The advantage to the 5200 design over the CV's is obvious: if you have chips known to be good, it is easy to test to see if a chip is bad merely by unplugging the (possibly) bad and plugging in the good. Diagnostics for the 5200 would not be as difficult as with other systems.

I cannot give an exact price yet, because actually we just started the plastic case project, but I believe we will have the answer for that in about a month. However I can tell you that we are aiming for $50, which I believe should be a very good deal considering similar projects. About pack-in, my deal with River West Brands (for the use of the Coleco name) doesn't allow me to include unauthorized software with the module (and I believe you know what I mean by that), so no pack-ins. However the non inclusion of a pack-in will be reflected at the lower price. Finally me and Dale are working hard to offer 3 games for the module this year, Goonies, Donkey Kong Arcade and Knightmare. All of them will come in a new deluxe packaging that I hope will raise the bar for homebrew presentation. And of course the games themselves will use the new MegaCart2 and because fo that will be able to at least store their own high-score table. DK will also store current [arcade] settings, Goonies will offer the option to start from already completed stages and Knightmare will keep track of already visited stages to offer warp doors. $50.00???!!!!! Hell, even I can afford that! It'll take a bit of time, but I can do it- and so I will. How much do you figure the cartridges for this thing will be? Can it play regular ones, still? Will it improve the quality of the regular ones, like reducing flickering, for example? Keep us all up to date. Don't forget the DP, too! Thanks!

Well, today I order a POKEY chip for my 5200 from Mike's Arcade. Hopefully, that'll do it. If not, maybe it's the transistor cluster. But it's half educated guess, half hunch, that it's the POKEY chip. Wish me luck. I do sort of miss Berzerk and Qix, as well as Blueprint.

You could try this: take the chip out of a cartridge casing, and plug it in that way. See if that works. As for the chips in a 5200: they are the plug-in sort (no soldering! ). If you don't have one already, you might want to invest in one of those "chip pullers" Radio Shack might still sell. Good luck.

How much will this cost, do you think? Will it come with a pack-in game?

Does jiggling the wires, especially at the ends, do anything? This happens with 5200 controllers quite a bit. This can cause jittering.

Studying the schematics again, and a description sheet, tends to point at the POKEY chip- it is supposed to scan and reset values from the controllers. If something is wrong here, then nothing related to the potentiometers would work. At this point, it is less than knowing, but a little more than an educated guess. Sheesh. Testing the CV Roller Controller was easy compared to this problem so far. If only I had the info on what to look for, then I could be sure.