FastRobPlus

Good callout. Here's the Wikipedia entry on copper lists: One of the earliest popular systems with true display list was the Atari 8-bit family. The display list (actually called so in Atari terminology) is a series of instructions for ANTIC, the video co-processor used in these machines. This program, stored in the computer's memory and executed by ANTIC in real time, can specify blank lines, any of six text modes and eight graphics modes, which sections of the screen can be horizontally or vertically fine scrolled, and trigger Display List Interrupts (called Raster interrupts or HBI on other systems). Another system using a Display List-like feature in hardware is the Amiga, which, not coincidentally, was also designed by some of the same people who made the Atari 8-bits custom hardware. The Amiga hardware was extremely sophisticated, and once directed to produce a display mode, it would do so automatically. However, the computer also included a dedicated co-processor, called "Copper", which ran a simple program ("Copper List") oriented toward the display. The Copper List instructions could direct the Copper to wait for the display to reach a specific position on the screen, and then change the contents of hardware registers. In effect, it was a processor dedicated to servicing Raster interrupts. The Copper was used by Workbench to mix multiple display modes (multiple resolutions and color palettes on the monitor at the same time), and by numerous programs to create rainbow and gradient effects on the screen.

I think anything that you get after the thing you had before is a "successor". Technically my current dog is the successor to my deceased spitz. As for DNA/lineage, the A8 was redesigned to have the same industrial design aesthetic as the Atari ST, so there was not only the Fuji logo but also a super strong family resemblance in the plastics.

I don't remember Jet or FS for any system being responsive in any measurable way, so I can't understand the analogy there. But let's talk about F/A 18 Interceptor. That game launched from within the OS and was system friendly, a feat that Windows would not achieve for another 10 years! That game did have an odd disconnected feeling (you heard the engine noise before you saw the game screen), but in hindsight this was the natural abstraction of a game running peacefully within a multitasking OS. With F/A 18, you could accelerate the system and the game became smoother, just like modern games. This applied to a lot of games that had to be processor, OS version, or resolution agnostic. Games like Wing Commander, MMIII, Fighter Duel Pro, Battlefort, and Kyrandia for example. This would have been a major jolt to gamers used to the OS-disabling nature of earlier games, but Amiga twitch and arcade style games used old school techniques to bypass the OS and bang the hardware directly and were as responsive as anything that had come before. What you perceive as a weakness was also a huge and never before seen strength.

I don't disagree with much of what you said, but I do on the point you made above. You can tell the difference between Atari VCS, INTV and Odyssey games in a number of ways. The games were made in a way that played to the strengths of each system. For example, many VCS games had graphics that were cruder but employed color that made the other systems look pastel by comparison. That can be said for the A8 as well. While the C64 looked more pastel and sharp, the A8 employed zones of cycling color, often splitting the screen and displaying different graphic modes on the same monitor. The Amiga sacrificed sharpness for color too (check out the HAM artifacting in Mindwalker) often splitting the screen and displaying different graphic modes on the same monitor. But seemingly no other systems did this. It struck me as odd how similar just these 3 systems (and no others) were, until I learned later that they were all touched by the same person. Sort of like Nebulon said earlier. You can like a band at face value and not quite place why - something about the mixing or sound or cadence that isn't common but reminds you of an earlier band you loved. If you later find out the band shares a producer and lyricist with that earlier band you love, then suddenly the pieces fit.

One of the maddening things about the Amiga was the way they raised the price of the Amiga 2000 (technically, it had been on a very long "introductory price" that C= let expire) but the increase hit right as the Video Toaster was really taking off. And to compound this mistake, the Amiga 3000 they phased in to replace the A2K couldn't fit the Toaster! I agree with many here that there may not have been a winning series of moves in the long haul, but there were also some genuine missteps in the mix too.

I made this same analogy on another ST/Amiga thread a few years back, but with cars instead of musicians. There are people out there who love Chevy but don't trust Toyota, Suzuki, or Daewoo. Yet it's possible for this Chevy lover to buy a Chevy Prism, trade it in for A Chevy Cruze, and then an shiny new Chevy Spark without realizing they have never owned a Chevy-produced vehicle. Ironically, they may have felt like traitors had they traded in the Chevy Prism for a Toyota Corolla, but without even knowing it, they'd have simply been buying an updated version of the car they always loved.

I know at least ONE PERSON at MacDs used an Amiga. I got a 500 in a boxed lot of stuff a few years back and it had a bunch of employee handbook stuff on the drive. All sorts of stuff about how long your lunch break can be and what constitutes "one sandwich, one beverage, and one side." It was all done in Pen Pal, an old home WP/DTP package. I know I shouldn't be peeking at other people's files, but it was such a fascinating glimpse into franchise store management circa 1993.

More colors.

The reto bug seems to come and go. For example this is the most active I've been on AA in about 2 years.

I'm not sure what an A8 to Amiga convert is. I'm guessing someone who went from an A8 to an Amiga when it came time to upgrade? Like a great deal of A8 users, I bought an ST. And like most (nearly all?) users, I had no idea about the shared DNA between A8 and Amiga. As an A8 user who loved Bill Williams games like Necromancer, I was surprised that the first Amiga game I saw in a store was Bill William's Mindwalker, and the games seemed so incredibly similar that it was stunning. The use of ambient sound and music alongside rainbows of rotating color was so similar it was like someone took an Atari 8-bit game and put it on steroids. Even the rectangular pixel aspect ratio was just like the Atari! My other favorite A8 app was RAMBrandt. My first ST purchase was Degas, but imagine my surprise when I saw DPaint on an Amiga - same ala carte style color and resolution selection, same pixel aspect, same non-embedded fonts. It was so reminiscent of the A8 that it was uncanny. It was these sorts things that made me sit up and take notice of Amiga. Not the other way around as you seem to think. I didn't initially want to like the Amiga, I just wanted a 16-bit Atari 800. I just couldn't escape how the Amiga, despite being a commodore product, was somehow impossibly similar to my old Atari. Imagine my surprise when I read years later how C= actually went to court to try and discredit the link between the two systems, which was so strong that it looked as if Atari might even be able to halt shipment of the Amiga!

I think the cost of hard disk drives was a huge nail in the coffin. Not only was SCSI way more expensive, but if you'd paid $500 for an A500, you likely weren't the type to shell out an additional $500 for an external HDD solution. Interestingly, laptop IDE drives started out pricey but started dropping fast. They were legitimately cheap just after C= went under, but imagine how much more longevity the Amiga might have had if there was a very cheap IDE solution a bit earlier. AdIDE was an awesome device and dirt cheap, but the actual drive was a deal breaker for your typical A500 user. And the 1200/600 had IDE built in, but actually adding a 20MB drive was insanely pricy.

The PC-1 was really pretty too if I remember correctly.

I skimmed it. It seems you are projecting a bit. You never got an Amiga and feel like you are in a lesser class for not having the experience. If you didn't have the spiritual successor to the A8, you'll make sure nobody else can make the claim. -edit-

I confess I didn't read past the above sentence, but are you saying that you have never heard the term "DNA" used in technology discussions to describe the set of traits, qualities, or features that characterize a product? If not, that may explain some of your replies. Here's the 2nd of the two definitions of DNA from Dictionary.com: 2. the set of nongenetic traits, qualities, or features that characterize a person or thing:

Nice to see some folks finally admit that there is a some shared DNA between the A8 and Lorraine technology. A decade ago it was so apocryphal that when I said it, I'd get angry PMs asking me why I hate Atari so much. Actually, check this out. It's an old response by an AA'er after I said I had made "a mistake" by purchasing an Atari ST thinking it was an upgraded version of the A8 technology (to be clear here, I wasn't saying buying an ST was a mistake, simply buying it based on the knowledge that the architecture was shared with the A8): "Do you have some guilt or complex about "abandoning" the Atari brand yourself, driving you to search your sole (sp) for justification? No???? Then why keep bringing it up? Why not just enjoy the Amiga without evangelizing? If nothing else, answer these questions, so we can get to the bottom quickly: Exactly (1) What is your motivation for bringing it up, (2) What is your point in bringing it up, and (3) What do you intend to do about it, and (4) What do you want others to do about it?"

Am I the only one who noticed that Pikachu is totally naked on the cover of Super Smash Bros?

If you have evidence, why not show it? The video linked at the start of the topic was a long string of assertions without any evidence offered. The only evidence given in this thread has been mine and that contained in the rebuttal videos, which I doubt you have viewed, but are really quite ironclad. And for the record, I and most others are absolutely holocaust deniers. I for example deny the holocaust said to have been caused by the great flood that wiped out all life on Earth as told in the Epic of Gilgamesh, because geologists have found no evidence for it. Reminder: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." -Christopher Hitchens

I have not given it a lot of thought, but I sometimes wonder if the path to winning for Atari or Commodore might have been to become immediately more open. For example, we know the ST was mainly built from off-the-shelf parts, but around an MC68000 rather than an Intel 8088. I wonder if somehow retaining rights to the platform but letting all the clone makers produce the systems in the same way it was happening for PC-DOS clones might have somehow been a winning bid. Amiga on the other hand was so specialized that I don't see how it could ever have survived. Remember, Apple and the Macintosh flat-lined in the mid-late 1990s. Only an emergency cash infusion from Microsoft and the subsequent turnaround headed by Steve Jobs saved them. And the only reason so much energy was expended in saving Apple was the antitrust lawsuit against MS. To avoid being labeled as a monopoly they desperately needed a second viable rival. If that's what it took to save Apple, what hope did Commodore/Amiga ever have? Still, I wonder what might have happened if in 1985/86, Commodore did the unthinkable (for that era) and released an ISA card with the Amiga's custom Deinse/Paula/Agnes chipset and marketed it as a cheap and easy all-in one PC gaming and multimedia card. Recall that back then, Hercules Mono, CGA, EGA, and VGA were all viable in the market and this was forcing most games and applications to support all 4 graphics formats. AdLib and SoundBlaster were doing the same for audio. SoundBlaster eventually won out for audio, and VGA for video but only because the price of VGA monitors began to fall. Imagine the disruption that may have occurred if a largish company like Commodore had offered an all-in-one card with beautiful graphics and sound that could output to existing televisions and monitors and use common 9-pin joysticks. I have no idea how such a ploy would have turned out, but it would be cool to go back in a time machine, take over Commodore, and give it a try!

Not an ITNV user but I love this idea.

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." -Christopher Hitchens

Okay, Sarkesian may not have uttered a single truthful statement since she began poisoning gamers with her oddball religion. But maybe she’s leveled up from her usual tirade of subjective one-line assertions. Let’s watch a bit of this new video and find out… Opening statement: “Here is a list of some of the invisible yet concrete benefits imparted by being a male gamer:” 1. "I can choose to remain completely oblivious or indifferent to the harassment that many women face in gaming spaces.” Verdict: Semi-true! As a male playing in a gaming space (for example Xbox Live) I can ignore – or even mute! – trolls I hear calling the lone woman on the server “bitch”. I can also ignore or mute the trolls who call me a “noob” or a “faggot” because I elected to use a gender neutral gamertag and they can’t identify whether I’m male or female, so they have to resort to more generic slurs. I can also report the trolls using the built-in policing tools. Hmm… come to think of it, perhaps a better way to phrase statement number 1 would have been: "Online trolls will use knowledge that you are female against you if they can, just as they will use any knowledge they can possibly glean about anyone against them if they can, because they suck as human beings.” 2. “I have never been told that videogames and the surrounding culture are not intended for me because I am male” Verdict: Untrue. The last two games I worked on were Adera and Disney Fairies: Secret of the Wings Both games were targeted at female gamers primarily. If a guy were to come up to me today and say “Hey I like Disney Fairies but I think it would be better if Tinkerbell showed a lot more cleavage.” I would tell them “I’m glad you like the game but I don’t feel that the majority of players - female gamers ages 8-14 - really agree that they want more cleavage in this game. Have you considered buying Bayonetta?” 3. “I can publicly post my username, gamertagg, or contact information online without fear of harassment or stalking.” Verdict: Holy Shit! No! No! No! You absolutely cannot and should not publicly post your real name online without fear of harassment (see my response to point #1 above). In fact even using your real name somewhere in your gamertag is a violation of Xbox Live terms of service for this very reason. The cases I have personally seen where police/FBI actually intervene in online stalking and harassment and ask questions have all involved minors, but they weren’t female. This statement is so out of touch with reality that I can’t help but be reminded of the people who think reading Harry Potter books can be dangerous because they make you susceptible to demonic possession. It is that asinine. 4. “I’ll never be asked to prove my gaming cred simply because of my gender.” Verdict: False (and also isn’t this the same as #2 above?) A member of “PMS Clan” called me out for being male once. She said “I thought guys weren’t supposed to suck this bad at Halo!”* *full disclosure: I kind of suck at Halo. Actually thinking about this again, does this mean that next Retro Gaming event I go to I can play in any of the tournaments without bothering to qualify? After all, if statement #4 is correct shouldn't only girls have to first pass a qualifying round? Or at the very least, a special "girls only" qualifying round to make sure they can move on to the real qualifying round? No? We'll then, false Q.E.D. 5. “If I’m expressing my fondness for videogames, nobody will accuse me of faking my interest in games just to get attention.” Verdict: False. (and also isn’t this just a different way of sating #4 above?) Male of female, I will totally accuse you of faking interest in games just to get attention (or more likely ‘credibility’) if I think that's what you are doing. For example: Donna (not her real name) was Sr. Online engagement manager for Xbox Live for about 2 years. Walking from Millennium B to the cafeteria once she remarked that she felt she wasn’t taken seriously as a hardcore Xbox gamer by the other Xbox gamers on the team. My response was “What’s your gamertag?” She didn’t have one. Also for #5 I must add that Sarkesian is probably projecting here a little bit. Many in the gaming community do call her out as a shill and a non-gamer. There is video footage of her responding during Q&A to a small auditorium back when she was a "pop media critic" saying that she doesn’t like games (I think you can find the clip in the vids OldSchoolRetroGamer posted) but then a year later she’s made a whole new career exposing male privilege in gaming while saying she was always a lifelong gamer… And you wonder why some people say that she’s faking it for attention or credibility... Okay that’s the top 5 of her 25 easily dismissed as factually and demonstrably inaccurate. Why does anyone still listen to her? Are we just starved because Jack Thompson seems to have faded away and we need a new villain? For now at least she seems to be employing some "sounds about right" style pop psychology to get a lot of people agreeing with her. It reminds me of that fable about the kid at a science fair who got all the parents to sign a petition banning the school's unregulated use of di-hydrogen monoxide... It sounds so reasonable until you actually do a tiny bit of fact-checking.

The handheld Sega is $40 at BB&B. Looking at their ad, they seem to be making a play at becoming Radio Shack Jr.

Got my copy - Thanks!!!

I'm pretty sure I had Oregon Trail for the Atari 800...

Here you go, multimedia and the Amiga in a nutshell: "The Amiga was so far ahead of its time that almost nobody — including Commodore's marketing department — could fully articulate what it was all about. Today, it's obvious the Amiga was the first multimedia computer, but in those days it was derided as a game machine because few people grasped the importance of advanced graphics, sound, and video." -Byte Magazine