mos6507

quote: Originally posted by Lee Krueger: BTW: The programmer has indicated that there is some special levels in Klax not found in any other versions. They don't follow the normal Klax rules. All I can say is that you'll know them when you reach them. What's the programmer's name? He's not credited in the Atari Age database.

quote: Originally posted by thelen: question for Jindroush : why do you want to have all the roms ??? and why won't you release roms to the public ? is it a problem that people have a cartridge image instead of a disk image ? - so i should dump my own cartrideg games ? Thelen This is nothing new. This is the same "service" that the CGE folks do, but behind the scenes, i.e. get collectors to dump ROMs, then hold onto them silently until they see fit. That's why we have to wait for games like Snow White to see the light of day, and I wouldn't be surprised if they already have copies of every other uncirculated game too, Pink Panther, Charlie Brown, etc...

As much as the 2600 gets a bad rap for its graphics, its wide palette separated it from other machines like the Intellivision, which could never do a game like Enduro. Just not enough gradations.

I think a related issue is the completness of AtariAge's ROM database. If there are a lot of games that do have ROM images floating around but just don't happen to be in the database, we should compile this list and get the ROM images added to the database. That way it will be easy to determine which games are and aren't available in NTSC or PAL. [ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: Glenn Saunders ]

The only reason to use anything besides a Supercharger is to support the larger ROMs. This is a pretty big reason, though. If enough people want it, maybe Chad will make more Cuttle Carts. I know he doesn't want to, so it's probably a matter of how much of a sense of obligation to the community he feels. The more people come around late who never heard of it but now want it, the more of a chance he'll change his mind about another run. To design something on your own would be tricky because it is going to have to support lots of special bankswitching routines. You'd just wind up redoing most of the work Chad already did with the Cuttle Cart for no real reason. As for the process of loading games, if you really wanted to, you COULD use a C64. There is a program for it that will take a ROM image and play the starpath audio format out directly via the SID chip, no tape step necessary. I wish there were something like that for the Atari 8-bit also. It would be more fitting that way. The original Starpath tapes were mastered using the tape interface of an Apple II, but I don't think it was the same format as the Apple II. The format itself is not the same as the C=64 or the Atari. It's much faster than most home computer tape formats, and is very reliable. By faster it's actually not a fixed datarate. It's variable speed and as long as the signal is clean, it can be pushed very fast. It's probably the best tape format ever designed when compared against known systems for home computers. Even if your original starpath tape has some dropouts, it will probably still load if you use the slow datarate side (not that there wasn't still a compelling reason to remaster these to CD--old standard bias tape as a medium are hardly a secure data archival medium).

To PAL users, what's your top 10 list of NTSC-only games you'd like to see in PAL format? To NTSC users, what's your top 10 list of PAL-only games you'd like to see in NTSC format? There are still a good number left that can be converted to the other format. Include finished prototypes in the list if you want (i.e. Save Mary).

They haven't been out in the open in deference to the Stella CD which until recently was sold as a commercially licensed for profit venture. Prior to the first CD (pre 1996) there was no way to go from a WAV to a BIN and back and emulators didn't support it so they were not originally placed online. Most of the ROMs first startewd circulating around '93-'94. The CD remainders are now available for only $5 or so at Hozer Video and I've announced that Cyberpunks holds no further objection to the ROMs being put online, as we've exhausted the CDs commercial potential and were unsuccessful at linking the games to any followup mainstream emu projects. It's now up to individual webmasters to decide whether they want to take a risk by putting them up since Bridgestone is more aware and interested in Starpath goings-on than most 2600 copyright-holders.

A lot of 8-bit ROM images can be converted to EXEs that run out of internal RAM. But only the smaller carts can do this. XEGS carts tend to be big banked ROM affairs (like Flight Simulator II, Ace of Aces or Lode Runner) and these sorts of carts will only run off original hardware via a RAMcart of some sort.

You know, there was a reason companies like Activision decided to sacrifice a few scanlines and game ROM just for the sake of making their logo visible at all times. Even then, it didn't stop asian pirates from hacking those bytes out or changing them to show their own fake logos then passing the games off as their own. I am not saying that Lee is doing this just to make a profit, but surely there is some prestige-factor in making superficial changes to a game, making new packaging, and branding the end result with your own company logo. It really doesn't matter how creative you get with hacks and the packaging and back story. They are still hacks. Now given how little the copyright matters for all intents and purposes, I'm not arguing against hacks in general. Some people like them. I actually like Kabul, for instance--nice topical play on words. I also like the idea of changing arcade ports like Galaxian to be more faithful. But for the interest of posterity, a plethora of hacks makes it very difficult for future generations to know what the original ever was. If we're all such great fans of classic games the way we say we are and we're going to conventions and talking to the original programmers themselves and all, I think we owe it to them to give them credit wherever possible. Saying "a clever hack" isn't enough. You have to cite the original game title. I think things like Stella PRO files should also denote hacks. I still think it's unfortunate that no metadata wrapper format took off for ROM images because as long as the ROM is decoupled from its description there will be confusion about its identity.

I don't mind hacks as long as the original game is credited. By the looks of it, X3V0LuX is a hack of M-Network's Astroblast, but this is not stated on Lee's site. I think it is highly unethical to "file off the serial numbers" to speak, and take credit for the result as if you wrote the whole thing from scratch. That's plagiarism at its worst. If it's an all-original title, my apologies, but I wasn't aware that Lee was a full-fledged 2600 coder so I'm inclined to believe it's an Astroblast hack. Lee, please clarify this on your site. [ 04-20-2002: Message edited by: Glenn Saunders ]

Dan Skelton made artwork for Polo on the first Stella CD (a release sanctioned by Atari Corp, BTW, and ultimately the initial source of the BIN on the net). I was hoping that if a cart were ever made this way, that it would have used Dan's excellent artwork which reproduced the style of that era of Atari. I would hope that some recognition be given to Dan and to the CD in the new cart. Dan has given permission to distribute his artwork freely. Maybe Alex will put it online? [ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: Glenn Saunders ]

Joe Hargreaves ?

>> All though its true that a lot of the 2600 games from the past would not be good on todays market, I think that some of them could do well if they had todays graphics, sounds and music, but of course you would have to expand the game play a bit, games like Adventure, Pitfall, and some others could have made it. << That's kind of like saying Archon is a remake of Chess. I don't think it's possible to change a classic game to be palatable to hardcore gamers of today without totally changing its gameplay to the point where it really isn't the same game anymore. Like Kaboom would have all this backstory and cutscenes and other playmodes and powerups. Classic games are all about minimalism and while there is a niche of games like the remade Frogger and such that could be considered modern extensions to classic games, the mainstream trend is towards added complexity and realistic simulation which runs counter to the style of most classic games.

There are sites like this. VAPS comes to mind, for owners of arcade games. I think this would be a great benefit to collectors, to have an online database. Then you'd know who you can trade with by making your collection public.

I don't think any original Atari games would make it in today's market. The old games were a different aesthetic in the same way as The Wizard of Oz or Casablanca. If you released something verbatim the same as the originals, the critics would tear apart the graphics and sound and the minimalistic gameplay. Today's generation of gamers demand a certain level of VR immersion and the appearance of millions of dollars of production values. Only within the context of the original platforms can you avoid such criticism.

>> Homebrews are like KISS when the lineup isn't Gene, Paul, Ace, and Peter; the Brady Bunch Variety Hour without Eve Plumb; the Spice Girls without Geri; "Classic Coke" after the New Coke fiasco (it isn't quite the original formula, as they now use a different kind of sugar) - all with their merits, but not that special thing they once were. << Special? First of all, not all of the original 2600 games are worthy of this level of respect. There was a lot of crap in the original 2600 catalog. And there are thousands of original games, but only a handful of homebrew games. What's more "special" within that context? You've really got to judge these games on their own merit AS GAMES, not just the context of them being written now rather than 20 years ago. Secondly, what this really is is NOT a "New Coke" type of deal. The examples you are giving are corprate sell outs and corporate strategic mixups. This is a case of the original CONSUMERS of these games becoming the DEVELOPERS a generation later, as an homage. So for music analogies, think of acts like Lenny Kravitz or the Black Crowes who extend upon the musical forms they listend to in their youth. And as for the choice of platform, ONLY older platforms are simple enough to create a game yourself as a lone programmer that people won't be criticizing up and down for not having graphics that maximizes the power of the platform. Imagine if in the music business, every 5 years the number of bandmembers and engineers you needed to produce an album doubled. Moore's law increases hardware capacity which in turn increases the human demands to push that hardware. That's what we've got with videogames. Can you blame people for wanting to strip things back down to the basics?

quote: Originally posted by Glenn Saunders: At least one of the original artists has died, or so I've heard. The artist I'm most interested in meeting would be the one responsible for most of the early box covers which usually feature a collage of 3 overlayed perspectives. I think that's the most appealing style of Atari artwork that they ever did. I think that style typifies 2600 nostalgia. The same artist probably did all of these covers: Basketball Surround Football Night Driver Missile Command Air-Sea Battle Outlaw Stellar Track The way he overlays different perspectives onto eachother is really nice.

quote: Originally posted by Tempest: Atari had a few staff Artists who did the artwork for both Sears and Atari. Someone was trying to track the individual artists down, but I'm not sure if they ever found any. Tempest At least one of the original artists has died, or so I've heard. The artist I'm most interested in meeting would be the one responsible for most of the early box covers which usually feature a collage of 3 overlayed perspectives. I think that's the most appealing style of Atari artwork that they ever did. I think that style typifies 2600 nostalgia.

quote: I'm 99.9% sure, the lower two shots are not from a 2600. Way to much resolution, especially in the bottom area. You are right. If you look at the release chart, Wings isn't even listed for the 2600, but it is for the 8-bits. I'm just surprised how blocky the horizon is if it's a game for the 8-bits. I think the Targ screenshot probably is the 2600, though, since that game wasn't scheduled for the 8 bit. [ 04-12-2002: Message edited by: Glenn Saunders ]

Tempest emulated on a PC at 1024x768 res is actually better than the original since color vector tubes are essentially TVs with the 3 pixel elements and a poor dot pitch. However, vector games on a portable screen are going to be much worse. For instance, Gravitar's ship can't wind up being more than a single pixel on a GBA. I haven't seen this package yet but I would bet that the small saucer and the small asteroids can't take up more than a couple LCD pixels. I think PORTS to portables of classic games makes more sense than emulations so you can tailor the sprites to that resolution rather than software scaling them into an unintelligble mess. That's also why I think ultimately 2600 emulation is going to look like crap on the GBA since its resolution doesn't match up evently to the GBA's resolution. If you were to PORT pitfall you could just make Pitfall Harry and the other sprites a little bigger. I do wonder whether emulation is being done on the GBA just for the novelty of having the processing power to do so for the first time on a portable--rather than doing it specifically to provide the best gaming experience.

Wow. Wings looks really good, doesn't it? Interesting approach to the dials on the bottom. How did they get that much text on a line above and below the dials??? The score at the top looks like it was done with inverse sprites (black) over playfield in order for the playfield to "draw" the lines between the digits. Really well done. I hope someone finds that game.

Now that the game database is mostly complete for the 2600, I think it's time to start driving ahead to flesh out the editorial portion of the database. You know, the game notes, history, trvia, tips and tricks. There is very very little in there right now. If you were to, let's say, convert what was said about the games covered in Stella at 20 into ASCII it would fill up a bunch of games right there and then. Outside of that, there is a lot of commonly known information about the games, but it's just not typed in yet. I wish I had enough time to commit to print everything that I know about these games, but I dont. We really should come up with a strategy to help fill out and maintain this editorial content. I think it's the missing element at AtariAge. If this were truly complete, this site would be the definitive reference for classic Atari knowledge. Maybe some of the text can be imported from another resource on aggreement from said party, like 2600 Connection?

The lynx only supports 100 pixels vertical res, vs. the 2600's 200+ pixels. I don't know how high res most portable TVs are, but I bet they are 320x200 or so.

I would really discourage selling a CD if it included ROM images. Not for a profit at least. At whatever point AtariAge is "complete" it would make sense to make a CD, though. The game databases really are thin when you consider the amount of lore associated with 2600 games. By lore I mean easter eggs, tips, tricks, technical data, historical trivia, etc...

>> RPGs are fun because it is interactive. It is like being in part of a story where you can decide how the story turns out. One of the best ones was the Phantasy Star games (I think it was III). It had multiple endings depending on which way the player decided to go. << How much branching is there in FFVII and onward? I think most people play FF games like they are watching a movie more than playing a game. And Play's problem is that they do not know the meaning of restraint. They think larger budgets equals larger profits, so they put all their eggs in one basket every single time, constantly trying to outdo themselves. It's the Hollywood blockbuster mindset and it's very risky, hence their big mistake with the FF movie.