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Posts posted by Hornpipe2
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Thanks for all the replies, you guys. I understand a lot better about this now, and it seems like a worthy project - I love the Atari sound.
Also - does RMT produce files with any kind of visualization, so they could be projected on a screen or something at a show?
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I've got a short stack of 8-bits in the garage and I need to turn them into something useful. "A-ha!" I thought. "I love the 8-bit sound. Let's make them into music tools!"
So who has advice on using the Atari 8-bits for music production and performance? Let's start with...
* model recommendations? (are some noisier or less stable? does extra RAM provide much benefit? etc)
* hardware and mods? I can add a mono audio-out jack easily. For stereo I've seen the standard piggyback mod which seems easiest, though I also know there are more advanced stereo out boards that do good things. What about MIDI control or...?
* software? I see lots of references to RMT on the forums which seems like a good choice for music tracker - are there other alternatives? Also something I haven't seen that I would like is a way to "play" the Atari as a keyboard synthesizer. Any tools like that exist?
-Greg
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LUNIX RULEZ JOO
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You know I would ordinarily never bid on this, but the free shipping makes it mighty tempting!
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The internal database now includes somewhere around 3250 entries. Since your collection only includes ~1700 ROMs, the answer is yes, there's definitely some extra stuff in there. I remove bad dumps as soon as I find them, but overdumps might still be considered valid. And there's many homebrew and demos that, while not part of your collection, still deserve a mention. I believe you attempted to do a demo/homebrew list at some point, but gave up because of the number of ROMs out there. Stella.pro already includes that info, so it would be a waste to throw it away.
I'm not opposed to marking your ROMs with a certain character (just as you use '~'), but at this point in time I don't want to completely erase all the other stuff in the database. Some cleaning could be done, but not a complete removal. I don't think I'd be opposed to removing overdumps, though, since they're bad versions of ROMs that already exist. Demos/homebrews are unique, and should be preserved.
How closely tied are the UI/launcher and the emulator? I don't feel Stella itself should come with any sort of whitelist, nor should it even care about what is being played on it. The only reason it has to care would be knowing what kind of controllers or hardware are connected, and the bankswitch type to emulate... both of which could be supplied on command line. (One might contrast this approach to MAME (which does whitelist or at least track rom info), but remember that MAME is a giant duct-taped together collection of emulators and choosing a romset actually implies choosing a driver as well)
Would it be a bad idea to make Stella into a command-line application which is called from a frontend, and in that frontend is where stella.pro (or in the distant future, stella.xml) lives? On GUI-based systems you could put them together into the single app.
In my ideal world 2600 .bins would have a 128-byte header at the front which described bankswitch type, controller inputs, name, etc. thus rendering this entire discussion moot. : )
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Well there you go. Ask and ye shall receive : )
Stephen - will this become a permanent change? Some emulator frontends use Mame's -listxml command to dynamically set themselves up with game lists at first run... probably exactly what neglectoru is trying to do with a static database file. A fully explained and parsable -listrominfo would be of great benefit to frontend authors everywhere.
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Rom - I believe he is looking for a downloadable database or spreadsheet with game information. Atarimania provides the same info but is web-based and can't be saved locally for doing custom SQL queries, enhancing emulator frontends with lots of information, etc.
neglectoru - Another option would be to download the entire Rom's Collection from Atarimania, list the filenames into a text file, and then try to use regexes on the filenames to produce a CSV of info. Most filenames include a rom name and manufacturer, and PAL releases have (PAL) appended... many others have a year (or even exact date) of release, controller info, programmer's names, AKA (for clones / pirates), prototype status, etc. Since version 4 (or is it 5?), Originals are marked with a ~ at the end. Link: http://www.atarimania.com/rom_collection_archive_atari_2600_roms.html
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Let's suppose you want a high quality digitized version of an instruction manual or box, but you don't have a scanner handy. No problem: with a tripod, your camera, and way to set up the document you can get the image easily.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3aXW5ZKa9w
This is a reasonable setup for one-time shots. Dedicated users needing multiple documents over and over should either
* get a scanner for maximum quality
* rig a setup like one of these: http://www.subchaser.org/photographing-documents
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Resources like AtariAge are really great, but is such information available in "database" format somewhere? I really love the Gamebase model, where there is an actual database (an MDB file, in the Gamebase example) from which one can write one's own frontend.
In particular, I am searching for a good list of atari games. The three pieces of information I'm most interested in is
- Game Name
- Publisher
- Release Date
Any database format (even an Excel spredsheet or CSV file) would be greatly appreciated.
Do such databases of Atari 2600 games exist in any format?
I haven't seen anything like that before, though I imagine it would be handy.
You might try your hand at writing a script to parse the stella.pro file ("properties" file for the Stella emulator):
It has at least Cartridge MD5, name, manufacturer, and sometimes additional info (model #, controller types, sparse rarity info, AKA for clones / rereleases). The release year is usually in parentheses in the Cartridge name.
- Game Name
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Thanks once again for putting this all together - the extra ~ marker is a great help in picking out Originals. I'm currently working on One 4k Multicart to Rule Them All and ran across some of these which I think should have a tilde but don't. You may want to tack one on for a hypothetical V6.
Air Raid (Men-A-Vision) (PAL).bin Air Raiders (Air Battle) (1982) (M Network, Larry Zwick - INTV) (MT5861).bin Atlantis (Lost City of Atlantis) (1982) (Imagic, Dennis Koble) (720103-1A, 720103-1B, IA3203, IX-010-04).bin Atlantis II (1982) (Imagic, Dennis Koble) (720103-1A, IA3203).bin Pepsi Invaders - Coke Wins (Coca-Cola, Coke & Pepsi) (1983) (Atari, Richard Maurer, Christopher H. Omarzu - Coca Cola).bin
Thanks for the corrections, hornpipe.
I will correct Air Raiders and Atlantis (I just can't believe I forgot that one).
Atlantis II is an official hack of Atlantis.
Air Raid is an (un)official 'hack' of Space Jockey.
And Pepsi Invaders is an official hack of Space Invaders.
Therefore no true originals, IMO.

Hey wait, I just tried Air Raid and it's not (very much) at all like Space Jockey...? How is this a hack?
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Well, you technically added another hidden paddle game, making it 43, so why not, was this also a time issue or would that have cost more, what?
Well now, it's not stated outright that it's a paddle game, just that it uses a non-joystick non-keypad controller. It could very well be Indy 500!
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It would seem rigged but maybe its designed to only give a win to like a certain number of clicks? Like the 500th click or something?
Here's what it says at the bottom:
Prize wheel does not represent the actual odds of winning a prize. See the Official Rules for complete odds disclosure. Click here if you can't see the game.Essentially they have already determined the 300 winners and the wheel is just a gimmick to give you something to do. It's probably rigged to only give away one at certain times of day.
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Oh, I didn't know it was from Namco. I figured it was Atari property : ) Never mind then.
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Aw man. I wish Pole Position had been on the list.
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I would understand the 3.0 browser going for $10 or more considering the low print run and how relatively rare it is.
Back when I had my DC I requested (and received!) Web Browser 3.0 from Sega for free. Didn't even have to pay shipping, if I remember right.
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I've done a little more research into taking panorama shots, and even tried one of my own over the Christmas break. A couple of free programs to try:
* hugin (Linux) is nice and automated, and can pick out control points for you automatically.
* Windows Live Photo Gallery (Win XP and higher, free from http://download.live.com/photogallery ) also does a good job of image stitching.
The key to good results is to use a (level) tripod, and take shots with a good amount of overlap between images. Otherwise, you end up with weird breaks or distortions, or the images are not in a straight line and you have to crop out a bunch.
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Hmm, I waited too long to try to prepare my order. Since I can't seem to even browse around right now, I think it's highly unlikely I will come up with anything. Oh well... I already got my solder station for Christmas anyway : )
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I bought a used DENON 7.1 audio receiver that has component outputs, inputs, svhs, (s-video), input and composite input. What I found out was that it converts composite and s-video to component and converts composite to s-video and vice versa for vcr recording! I can hook up my Sega Genesis to the composite input and it converts it to component to the tv!
Oh wow, how cool. We're on the lookout for a new audio system (the 5-channel analog-only Dolby ProLogic system needs an upgrade), that's a feature I would definitely keep in mind.
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Hornpipe2,
I also like that take on it, very interesting.
Well it's nothing I came up with, mostly just an application of some game design topics I read over the years on Lost Garden. I probably got much of it wrong... anyway, here's a link with a better description of what I'm trying to say:
http://lostgarden.com/2006/01/creating-system-of-game-play-notation.html
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Re: Accuracy troubles. There is a menu option for "Wii Sensor Bar Position" which has two options - Above TV and Below TV. Make sure the setting corresponds to what you're actually using. If it does, try swapping the position and set the menu accordingly... I have had similar pointing issues relating to the TV being too short or tall relative to my height, and moving the sensor bar helped.
Here is a calculator that will help you figure out how far away to stand to get most accurate precision: http://www.davidhawley.co.uk/WiiSensorBar.aspx
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Interesting. The idea of old games losing their charm is something I've been thinking about a lot lately. The author does seem to have some ideas and the examples are sound, but I don't think he has totally nailed it yet...
Danc over at Lost Garden sometimes breaks game design down into a series of skill-reward pairings. Players are led through the game and taught new skills (moving, jumping, shooting enemies, etc) and are thus rewarded (enemies dying, powerups, points, level up, satisfying sound effect, plot line advancement) or punished accordingly.
As a simple example - Mario jumping on an enemy. The reward is obvious: dead enemy, pleasing sound effect and graphical feedback. Punishment for failure is a lost life and having to restart the level. Players go through a process of mastering the skill, where the rewards become more and more commonplace, and the entire process of skill mastery is perceived as "fun" (up until it becomes second nature, and the thrill of the reward wears off). This is where game designers build on the basic skill to create complex ones, thus extending the fun: jumping on a turtle releases a turtleshell, some enemies are dangerous to land on, jumping on multiple enemies in a row gives further reward, etc.
Anyway! Take any game - again, Super Mario Bros. is a fair example. Once shipped, the game is a solid-state assembly of skill-reward pairings. You can only learn so many things, play through a set number of worlds, etc. before it runs out of things to teach you. Now, the sequel comes out (Mario 3), which does two important things which obsolete the sequel:
* it presents nearly the same skills (gameplay) as the original did, plus more
* the rewards for mastering the skills are "better" (more levels, new methods of exploration, more sound effects, better graphics, more potential skills to build upon the basics)
Given that the two important contributors to "fun" are improved in the sequel, why bother playing the original any more? It just psychologically doesn't feel complete any more, given the knowledge that a different game provides further extension of the original's ideas. As the article states, if you "go back" far enough in a series, the old games become fun again. The same reasoning here applies: over a series lifetime, the game mechanics evolve, to the point where the most recent game no longer closely resembles the one from N iterations ago. Again, different skills = fulfilling experience.
One more point to make is that of streamlining the skill-reward sequence, which helps explain one other way in which new games may obsolete the old. Learning skills is fun, but only when the method is straightforward/repeatable/reliable and the connection to the reward obvious. It isn't fun to learn to power-slide in a racing game if the move randomly fails 50% of the time, or sluggish controls impede the ability to do so. Thus a new game with faster processing or alternative control input (Wii Wheel?) or whatever may be able to let the player focus on learning the skill and not fighting the interface.
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RF modulator should do the trick, and they are readily available at Radio Shack, K-Mart, Wal Mart, etc.
While that would let me connect to the antenna/cable jack on the back of the TV, the quality would no doubt be worse than using composite. I was hoping to find a hookup that preserves the (relatively) high quality of the s-video signal.
Why not just use the Composite Video connection on your TV. There shouldn't be much difference in picture quality between Composite and S-Video.
I have not actually tried the Composite input on the new TV yet. When I compared composite to s-video on the old CRT, there was definitely a noticeable difference. I find "dot crawl" to be very distracting.
I guess I'll just have to live with composite, though, until I can spare some change for one of these:
http://www.google.com/products?q=%22s-video+to+vga%22&scoring=p
or enough time to build this:
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You might be able to cut some new rubber caps out of a disused PC keyboard...?

My Air Raid Auction Update
in Atari 2600
Posted
I worked as a cashier at Tuesday Morning for about 6-9 months in the mid-2000s and while I remember getting truckloads of stuff in, I don't ever remember shipping anything back or throwing it away (unless it was broken). They did go to extreme markdowns though and stuff ended up on a super-cheap clearance rack.
What happens to all the junk that the third-party marketers don't sell? Was I just not around when management packed up boxes of 90% off stuff and put it back on the truck? Surely there are not really homes for all the stuff every store across America produces.