wood_jl

There's lots of technical discussion comparing sprites, etc. in this thread. I played mostly A8 games but was surprised the first time I played friend's C64 that it was "as good as mine" in many respects. I seems a moot point to argue the point which was "better" in graphics, considering how primative both machines are by today's standards; any non-8-bit enthusiast spoiled on modern hardware would find the primitive displays of both machines suck equally. In reality, they both played a great game. What bothered me much more about the C64 (than colors ever could) were the crappy floppy drives. I believe they ran at a sloth-like 300 characters per second/2400 bps or something like that. Also, Atari Basic seemed more user friendly (a bigger deal in those days, obviously). I should think these things matter more, and it seems inexcusable that the C64 wasn't superior in every way being years later in introduction.

Bravo. I knew this was the case but have never seen it put into words this well.

money

Well Ikari warriors is a lousy game on both the NES and the 7800 to me. Control wise I will say the 7800 has this, because you can hold the fire button to keep shooting in the direction you want. The NES version shoots only where you are moving to. Which sucks when somebody is behind you and you want to shoot him while walking away. But the NES looks better. It does flicker a quite a bit on the NES, but it has more animation then the 7800. The characters look more terrible on the 7800. Not saying either one looks extremely good. Explosions are better on the NES. The animation is choppy on both systems, but slightly better on the NES. Sometimes there are Helicopters, Tanks, couple of men, and explosions all on one screen. This is what I mean by it being busy. The game is not always that busy, but there are times when it does. yeah my pile of $hit is better than your pile of $hit. galaga on both systems are pretty darn good with nes edging the 7800. Galaga is NOT EVEN CLOSE on these two systems. While I love every version of Galaga, the 7800 version sucks in comparison to the NES version. The NES version looks and plays like "real" Galaga and is surprisingly close to the arcade. 7800 version is not even close.

Ok, some very good points brought up in this thread. I think, however, that it should be said one of the coolest things about the Gameboy Player was the ability to play the **EXACT SAME** game on both a handheld and at home. The Super Nintendo games - Donkey Kong Country 1/2/3 and Yoshi's Island are completely awesome in this regard. After getting stuck/giving up at one point, having the ability to either play it mobile after being stuck at home, or play it at home after getting stuck on the bus - is a priceless aspect of the Gameboy player. It seems we shall never again see a system that allows you that freedom and choice. Mobility, and while at home, a huge screen and *comfortable* controller. I suppose that loss is the basis for my disappointment. BTW: If you ever see a Gameboy Player disc (loose) for sale and it's reasonably priced ($5 in my case), buy it and you can get a Gameboy Player that's missing the disc for CHEAP on Ebay. That's what I did for a second GB Player. The only thing left to do is hook all the crap up to play a battle of Advance Wars with 2 Gamecubes/GB Players, TVs, etc. Anybody ever tried anything that ridiculous?

The way the GBPlayer fit into the Gamecube would make it a problem logistically making it fit into the Wii. Also, the Gameboy series is basically finished. Why would Nintendo spend the money to engineer a GBPlayer to fit the Wii when they wouldn't be A) selling many or B) any at all? Well, seeing as how the Wii is "Gamecube compatible" it likely wouldn't have been a challenge electronically to do it. So they choose to make the Wii physically incompatible with Gamecube accessories by standing it on it's side for a "cool new look" which helps (in the eyes of the technically-challenged) ameliorate it's "Gamecube 1.5" status. Why do it? (1)Reward the few loyal fools who bought a Gamecube last generation. Because the Game Boy Player is awesome, and (2) it'd be one more reason for me to upgrade to a Wii. (3) So the Gameboy series is finished? Silly me, I was still having fun with it. I suppose I should declare it a piece of shit and shitcan it in some obligatory fashion. Gamecube is finished too; why don't you apply the same logic to Wii's backwards-compatibility with Gamecube? Is Gamecube any LESS finished than GBA? Probably more so. At any rate, how ridiculous (to you) to want your Gamecube accessories to work with your new Gamecube-compatible Nintendo. What an assinine expectation!!! I guess wanting the GC controllers to function as classic controllers can go in the same boat. Since it's important to have the latest stuff and show it to others and brag, why not a "DS player" for the Gamecube? Oh yeah, that's right....the Gameboy player SUCKED HARD in reality, and anyone who still enjoys it and wants for its longevity is full of shit, as would anyone who likes playing the same game on the big screen at home and small screen on the go. What a novel concept....oh but nobody would buy one.. Ok, now we understand where you're coming from.....carry on.

Gameboy player is totally awesome. I can't believe they gave it up. I can't believe they didn't make it work on the Wii. It's worth it for Advance Wars alone. I am so used to playing Advance Wars 1 and 2 on a television that I can hardly get excited about playing a new version on a DS screen. If they'd make a DS-player for the Wii, I'd probably have to have one eventually. But the industry seems to be abandoning backwards compatibility. How much more would it have cost for the DS to play Gameboy Color (and earlier) games? Why doesn't the Gameboy Pocket play old Gameboy games? Gamespot had a news story month or so back that a new Nintedo patent on another iteration of the DS has been filed, which means it may be in the works. It abandons Gameboy Advance compatibility completely. I guess so you'll buy the simplest games that you still have and like - all over again - or "rent" them on a virtual console-type of thing.

Wavebirds are only $14.99 at "Gamestop." They price them THE SAME as regular Gamecube controllers. They also do not distinguish between Nintendo brand controllers and off-brand controllers. What that means is that if you can find one, a Nintendo-brand Wavebird is the same price as an off-brand wired controller (or a Nintendo wired, or off-brand wired, etc). I'm stocked up now! What a deal!! Just be SURE to check the free play on the analog stick and make sure it's reasonably tight. I had to take ONE back and get a refund, then found a nice, tight replacement at another Gamestop. Wii lovers, don't be offended, but I don't want to flail my arms around when playing videogames, thanks. I'll go do the real thing if I'm not lazy enough to be playing videogames. I also don't want my controller split in half with a little wire between them. Both hands on one controller allows one to hang on to the controller and relax the arms. When I want a real workout, I play racquetball or get on a bicycle. Therefore, I think the Wavebird is the ultimate evolution in Nintendo controllers, and for $15 a steal. The fact that Gamecube graphics are equivalent to Wii graphics, yet Gamecube stuff is dirt cheap, makes Gamecube stuff quite a bargain. Never realized how good the Gamecube was, until I saw they were able to sell the same thing (almost) with gimmicky controllers as a new system to an unsuspecting public. Guess they were going for the "mass market" who has no idea what "1080p" means anyhow. Any my, how they've succeeded.

The only time a seller needs to leave negative feedback for a buyer is because of nonpayment. What the hell else can a buyer do but pay his bill? If one of the many unscrupulous sellers sends you a PIECE OF SHIT, and you paid immediately, isn't that deserving of negative feedback? If it is, should you - the buyer and injured party - be worried about NEGATIVE RETALIATORY FEEDBACK??? I think not. Negative retaliatory feedback is a venue for dishonest sellers - with childish tendencies - to throw barbs at people they've screwed over. If that wasn't the case in many instances, this likely would not have been brought to Ebay's attention.

I have only recently sold 3 consoles on Ebay - making me a new seller. It was hardly worth the trouble for such a few dollars. The fees were excessive, I thought. Not sure if I'll bother again unless it's an item worth 3 or 4 times what a console will bring. I guess that makes me a buyer rather than a seller. However, as a seller, I placed LARGE, DETAILED pictures of what I was selling. In each case, you could tell the consoles were mint as described. I wish others were that way. And when you get shafted - like having a beat-up console shipped to you - all you can do is leave negative feedback. Then you get NEGATIVE RETALIATORY FEEDBACK, even when you're the injured party - you made lightning-fast payment (what more can you do as a buyer???) and then got shit on by a dishonest seller. Therefore, if the new rules say that a seller can't leave negative feedback for a buyer, what they're aiming to eliminate is RETALIATORY feedback, which serves no purpose at all, save for childishness on the part of dishonest sellers. I think this positive aspect is at least worth mentioning.

I agree with you completely. I'm still sitting on the fence regarding all this next-gen HD stuff - consoles included. I'm afraid when I make my move, it will be to the 360. While Sony backs out of the backward compatibility, at least Microsoft (which did not seem to tout backward compatibility in the beginning) has been moving in the opposite (correct) direction with updates that allow the 360 to play many popular original Xbox games. I was especially delighted when my friend (who's not interested in paying/playing online) downloaded the updated from Microsoft (with a PC, FREE), burned them on a CD and updated his system. Talk about excellent (free, too) support. Sony really lost my interest by abandoning the b/c. Throw in the fact that 360 is cheaper (likely always will be) and the controllers rumble (right now, no promises) and the choice becomes easier. Over the past few generations of hardware, I end up collecting ALL the systems in time, but I'm NEVER going to pay $500 (or even close) for ANY game console. I also don't like the cheapness that Sony seems to pursue as of late. Example: at Christmas, Walmart had PS2 bundles with some game and an extra controller....but a NON-RUMBLE PS2 second controller!!! Now I see these non-rumble controllers on the shelf at Walmart, next to the Dual Shock 2. Was it really necessary to be THAT cheap? I wonder if the Dual Shock 2 is being phased out. I can't imagine justification for manufacturing/stocking 2 kinds controllers (for a system on the way out) just because of rumble. Cheapness!!!!

Not sure if these are still considered "modern;" when will they be "classic?" Anyway... LOOKING FOR A SOFT CASE FOR THE GAMECUBE. I remember seeing one that looks "official" that has the Gamecube logo on it. That's what I like. Anybody have any experience with this? Will the Gamecube fit in it with the Gameboy Player attached? THAT'S THE BIGGEST CONCERN. Likewise, looking for similar for the original (BIG, UGLY) PS2, and the original Xbox. Just as with the Gamecube, I like the OEM look of the soft cases I've seen that have the appropriate system's logo on it. It also makes it easier to pull the correct system out of the closet. Does anybody know if these were actual OEM parts, or just licensed by different manufacturers (or maybe ONE manufacturer made the ones I like for all systems). Unfortunately, this stuff has pretty much dried up in retail. 360/PS3 cases are everywhere in retail! Have to go online, I guess. Thanks for any info on this not-so-important subject - any info greatly appreciated.

It looks like it's trying to morph into an "original" Atari 800. At least the color's getting close!

It seems that a common theme in this thread is always WITH MODIFICATION which is best. Yet - over and over - I keep asking the questions "WHERE TO GET ONE MODIFIED?" and "WHAT IS THE COST OF MODIFICATION??" And these questions keep going unanswered. That fact speaks for itself. Getting an Atari-8 modified is not only impractical in 2007/2008, but likely prohibatively expensive. So the only practical answer to this thread (to users, not modders) is "which stock machine offers the most utility." So if you want clear video and don't do a lot of typing (who does on 8-bits nowdays?) then 130XE. If you do more typing and want fuzzy video, an XL. Does that sum it up, or can you tell where to get one modified and how much it costs?

Best 8-bit computer of all time is the NES. So it has no keyboard. But it has a 6502. I'd like to see "Super Mario Bros" on an Atari 800 or Commodore 64 or TI99 or whatever you want to compare to. I had an Atari8 at the time it came out. I talked trash....then I went over to a friend's house and played Super Mario Bros. and my prejudice was lifted. Since all I use 8-bit computers for now days is playing games, the lines between consoles and and computers (of that era)have blurred retrospectively, unless you surf the web with your Commdore 64.

Many good points. Memorable thread for those who lived out those days. I had an ST in those days. Thought the Amiga was interesting, but I really didn't like the "look and feel" of the O.S. "Zzzzzz" when it's busy? Is it sleeping or working? I am, however, going to write off all that stuff.... .....my vote is for the SUPER NINTENDO. Clearly 16-bit. Show me graphics on ANY of those systems that is superior to games like "Donkey Kong Country" and I'll be convinced. Those graphics hand all the 16-bit computers their asses. First time I saw one, I realized that consoles weren't to be pissed on by computer gamers anymore. Now, where do the keyboard and mouse plug in so I can call SNES a computer?

Over in the 8-bit section, as the discussion goes on about "Which is best A8 overall" it is frequently brought up (as it has been everywhere) that the Atari 130XE has the shoddiest build quality. Everybody agrees the earlier (400/800/XL series) A8s are built better. The keyboard is "mushy." The case is "flimsy." There are no sockets on the motherboard; *everything* is soldered in. The motherboard itself has traces so thin that it's easy to delaminate them when soldering. For those unfamiliar, the 130XE (and 65XE) look exactly like a 520ST without the numeric keypad and cursor keys, so it's obviously not as wide. My question is, how is the build quality of the ST series? Any complaints? Any changes over the years? Is the Falcon built as cheaply as the 130XE that it so-resembles? I myself used 520/1040STs up until about 1991, but haven't since. I never had any problems, but never heard anything about it. I am assuming the same thing is the case with the ST? Cost cutting was a favored Tramiel tactic. Any opinions?

I agree completely about the 800. I want a mint one just as an ornament. XL innards would be awesome! But new colors?? Whoa there - gotta have the beige. As cheap and flimsy as the XE's are, it's hard to ignore the fact that you can get a NICE 130XE for $40 on Ebay, about the same price as 800XL. How many multiples of that price would it cost to buy the 800XL, pay shipping both ways to a modder (not all users are modders) as well as pay the for the mods? You'd be lucky to get in under $150 (more??) by the time all that is taken care of - even if you knew *where* to get the work done. The only point in the 130XE is you can play a cheap, S-video game of Star Raiders on a $40 machine, and since you only type with 1 finger when 8-bit gaming, the keyboard isn't really an issue like it was in the 80s. This thread should be titled "Which is the most practical Atari 8-bit computer overall?" For casual users on a budget, the "best A8 of all" is of comparatively little relevance. Since there's all this talk of modding XL's - which indeed makes them the more desirable machine once paid for - anybody have a list of modders (and prices) that still perform typical mods on 800XL? Then this topic could be brought out of the theoretical. Correcting XL video and memory upgrades would be of course of prime interest!

Quote: ->Would you die for a Jaguar? Well a mother of 12 did in a radio contest "Kiss a Jaguar for a Jaguar" from jaguar mauling. ->Join me in the boycott of the Jaguar and anything Jaguar related. Why? Because had Atari not named their console after ->a deadly cat, these children would still have their mother and their mother would still have a head. That has to be the FUNNIEST thing I've ever seen on here....I'm still laughing! Bravo!!

Much agreed. It up to "the kids" these days to HAVE to have the latest (i.e. anything less than Halo 3 sucks). It's as if somehow, you must believe PS2/Xbox/Gamecube graphics INSTANTLY became sh*t because they're not the latest. I wonder how many people hook the "next-gen" systems to SDTVs and "waste" the graphics potential anyway....except for Wii of course. I picked up a mint Gamecube for $25 at a pawn shop. Had them bring "the stack" to the counter, then divided them into semi-finalists (not scratched/banged) then settled for the one with the least dust in the fan!!! Got Gameboy Player for $10, Wavebird controller for $10 - all nice. Everything for less than the cost of ONE CONTROLLER for a PS3. I'd been holding out on Gamecube until they got to this price, and I must say I am impressed! I think the Gamecube has excellent graphics. I can't understand paying so much for the Wii and the same franchises (Mario, Starfox, Smash Bros, etc) when it has the SAME graphics, plus I wouldn't trade the Wavebird for that jiggle-me-jerk-off controller any day! Now stocking up on cheap Gamecube games. They're disappearing from retail fast, but they're in the pawn shop - my store. Indeed, it's a great time to be a "last-gen" gamer!!!!

What you want is the "Total Control 3" by EMS. I have 2 of em but have never tried em. I don't want to sell them, but I did find a place that claims to have them in stock, and right at your price! You better hurry and get them while you can. The place I got mine from (Jandaman) has been sold out for 1.5 years. According to this site: http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-h5-49-en-70-46.html .....it indicated they are in stock, which is suprising! I'd jump on it! James Wood

Petroleum Naptha - commonly seen in "Coleman's Camp Fuel" gets rid of most marker ink. I've used it on discs many times. Used to be sold as "Chevron Blazo" fuel which is how I usually remember it. Also commonly referred to as "white gas." Also, Ronsonol lighter fluid (in the little yellow squeeze bottle) does the trick. All this stuff is great for removing "permanent" marker, stickers or sticker glue residue, dissolving chewing gum, great for treating oily spots on laundry (careful - sometimes will leave a light spot instead). I agree with the comments on Isopropyl alcohol as well.

I'd have to say that the main reason to own a Genesis and its games is that you actually OWN THEM and when you buy them on the Virtual Console, you're actually just RENTING THEM. If your console goes belly-up, say bye bye to your games. You can back them up to SD card, but you can't play them on a DIFFERENT Wii, say you pick up a spare console (used and cheap in the future). Personally, I can't stand ALL of these downloaded games for all the systems. It seems the console companies have finally found a way to *put a stop to used game sales*. That's what they're after. For years, they've been fretting over cheapskates like me who wait and either buy their games out of discount bins (if new), used (Ebay/Amazon marketplace, etc) or (my personal favorite) at Pawn shops for $3 to $10. Buying the Genesis games on PS2 (or whatever) compliation DISCS is actually a fair way to OWN the games, but don't count on any more of that. This online distribution of games is the only way you'll be able to retro-game in the future. The console companies will also be releasing their top-tier games with half the features omitted (on purpose) so they'll be happy to sell you "additional" content that would (should) have been included on the disc. Of course, when your console fails, say "bye bye" to your additional, "rented" content. What a business model to benefit the manufacturers. That's why they love the online content. So that's a major benefit to OWNING (meaning: the media is in your hand) games, be the Genesis or otherwise. One of my favorite Genesis games is "Virtua Racing." The cart is a HUGE and has some 3-d capability in hardware (similar to SNES's Super FX??). The best [home] version of Virtua Racing is on the 32X. Don't laugh, I paid $7 for my 32X unit and the game was $5. It's a kludgy setup - to be sure - with all those power cables/etc. But as far as I know the few 32X games worth playing aren't available on any other system. Virtua Racing - Simply the best version - better than Saturn. Saturn version is bad with terrible load times and the control seems off, and doesn't look any better. It was developed by an outside company, if I remember. NBA Jam TE - One of the best versions, on par with Saturn. One of the few times the PS-one version wasn't as good because it didn't handle large 2-D sprites as good as Saturn or 32X. Shadow Squadron - 1st person space shooter that shows off 32X pretty well Star Wars Arcade - ditto above. If you're really a collector, the 32X games above (limited list, to be sure) sora make it worth having because I don't think you can get them anywhere else. Plus you can get a brand new (boxed) 32x for about $20. Also note that 32x Virtua Fighter was great for the time and fun to play for a few minutes, but we all know how many superior versions of THAT game there have been.

You must have mistaken this with Doom. It was playable on a 386/40, but the framerate wasn't very good (could have been around 15 fps). Only CPUs with an FPU (like 486DX) could handle it fluently. Also if you only had 4 MB of RAM, you would experience long loading times on start of the game and between levels. On the other hand, Wolf3D was pretty fluent on a faster 286 (16 or 20 MHz). This is EXACTLY how I remember it. I was jazzed about building an affordable 386/40 AMD after years of using 286's and nor being able to afford a 32-bit computer, then found that DOOM was "just ok" on my new machine. Later got a DX2/66 and was more satisfied. I played Wolf3D on a 286/16 and it was great, and that's why the 386/40 and DOOM was disappointing.

Back in the heyday, I used to know which of these was the better machines, as well as what the differences are. Someone chime in here who knows. It seems to me that the Hong Kong version had a "better" keyboard, and that lots of chips were socketed. I know that the "Tramiel era" counted heavily on Taiwan manufacturing, so I'm assuming then, that the Taiwan 800XL (I believe he continued to manufacture 800XLs prior to XEs) were the less-desirable product. Is that the case? James Wood