Underball

Another easy one godslabrat, because not only do some people like to beat dead horses, they are also hypocrites!! (Thanks for quoting that one HatefulGravey) Troll indeed. If you have me on ignore, there's no reason for you to post in this thread. This isn't the thread you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

I merely wanted to have a frank, open discussion about the possible ramifications of the outcome of this case Sony is making. There are some (at least I thought obvious) parallels to some of Apple's decisions and pitfalls. And I wanted it to be somewhat free of all the "You're all a bunch of mean, ugly, jerky pirates and you're ruining my life with your stolen games!!!" trolling arguments that pretty much show up in every other thread on the subject. Oh well.

Whaaaat? After what demand? Demand to run Windows on a Mac? You could do that before with VirtualPC, SoftWindows, RealPC, etc. DOS and Windows capabilities go back at least as far as 1994 or so with PowerPC Macs that came with DOS cards. I've been a Mac user since 1996 and I've never heard of any demand to boot a Mac into Windows. The ability to boot into Windows (or any other Intel-based OS) came along with the Intel transition. The whole Boot Camp thing seemed more like a "why not?" feature than a "due to demand" feature. And no, it wasn't always the case that Macs could natively boot into any OS. How many PowerPC-based operating systems can you name? And how many of those were Mac users clamoring to boot into in the days before Intel? I'm about as ready to champion the efforts of non-pirate hackers as anyone but this thread isn't doing a service for anybody. The fail is strong. and those abilities like SoftWindows were never really usable for anything serious. Anything taht required any horsepower to run effectively was pretty much castrated. Clearly you never tried to run anything processor intensive on those "Fake Windows" Mac workarounds - like say, AutoCAD.

They HAD to? Really? Please describe the process Apple took to offer Windows as an option on the Mac. I'd be very curious to compare your version with reality. That's referring to the iPhone jailbreak. Now you're just arguing semantics. Actually, I'm still trying to get a grasp on what the argument is. You keep running around in circles, and your answer to every question is either "Apple" or "OtherOS", despite the fact that neither adequately answers the question asked of you. For example, you talk about how PC makers will try to lock you into an operating system. Your example is Apple. I point out that Apple computers are not locked into OSX (while ignoring the fact that your characterization of Boot Camp is woefully inaccurate), and you then say you were really talking about the iPhone... a device which is not a PC and typically does not have its Operating System changed. Cracked, perhaps, but not changed. Your examples are not relevant to the point you want to make. Apple was a proprietary OS only platform for many years. Boot Camp came about in beta form in Apple's Tiger OS, and wasn't officially supported until Leopard, and then only for Intel-Based Macs - Which were released not really that long ago compared to how long Apple and the Mac platform have been around. The idea of being able to boot into other operating systems on the Mac only came about due to customer demand, because Apple's software support for many popular applications was severely lacking. So the Mac going with boot camp is an example of a major computer manufacturer who were once stalwarts of their proprietary OS, changing their entire philosophy of their operating system to make allowances for their customers demands. That's how it is relevant to Sony re: OtherOS. And the iPhone case is relevant to Sony and the PS3, re: jailbreaking a proprietary os becoming legal where Apple once tried to enforce their EULA on everything that touched it. I really can't believe I have to type this all out for you.

No clue what this thread is 100% about since I (thankfully) can't see most of it, but based on the title I think it's probably proof some people just like to beat dead horses. Go Fuck yourself, troll. I'm out. Have fun. Moycon has been trolling around behind me for months. It's got nothing to do with you or anyone else in this thread. He claims to have me on ignore, yet continues to respond to my threads. I don't understand it, really.

They HAD to? Really? Please describe the process Apple took to offer Windows as an option on the Mac. I'd be very curious to compare your version with reality. That's referring to the iPhone jailbreak. Now you're just arguing semantics.

I already answered you, SEVERAL TIMES. OtherOs. and I don't care if I can run Linux on a PC just as easily. That's not what I WANT to do. I own my PS3, I WANT to run OtherOS on it. I do NOT want to move my PC to my living room, and out of my office, if my PS3 is capable of doing the same thing. And I'm not going to go out and buy another PC, for the exact same reason. And I keep referring to Apple, because the cases are very similar in nature. Proprietary Hardware/Software manufacturer who eventually had to allow their customers to use their systems as they see fit. There are a ton of similarities.

So I take it you're unaware that you can install Linux or Windows on a Mac? Now you can, yes. Because Apple finally allowed it after much demand (plus they switched to Intel based hardware which made the transition much easier.) Wasn't always the case though. Those margins would be a whole lot larger if they got cash injections from the Mighty MS for exclusivity deals. I don't think this "is going to happen". What I was inferring is that it if Sony wins this current fight, it certainly opens the door for other such abuses, and this could be done without much legal ramifications.

Would that someone be another 7800 forum regular who also already has about 7-8 other as yet unfinished projects sitting on deck?

If Sony wins this case - yes, you bet your ass that's on the table. It's not entirely unfathomable to think that Hp or Dell won't follow suit and start strong-arming customers into exclusivity contracts for specific OS use, and to start creating lockout hardware that only allows Windows OS. IT makes total sense for them from a service/manufacturing standpoint. Okay... that's it for me. Have fun. You don't think it's possible that certain Name-Brand CE/Computer Manufacturers might take this as a cue to limit OS installations on their hardware to one they contract up with exclusively? *ahem* I'll see your: and raise you a:

Yeah the dude had serious mental issues, I hope that he was able to get some help IRL to deal with them. Nah. He seemed relatively intelligent and coherent. I think he was just a monumental ass. He got into fights with EVERYONE. even people who supported his efforts.

But this isn't entirely correct either. The Linux distros that run under OtherOS on the PS3 don't run any differently than they do on a PC platform. This isn't a hypothetical. It's the real Deal. Debian is Debian. Sure, there aren't ports of Windows or OSX for the PS3 yet, but that doesn't mean there won't ever be. It's simply a case of drivers, and kernel changes. So your point is... that because one day in the future we might theoretically be able to run Windows on a PS3, we should concern ourselves with the possibility that one day we might NOT be able to run Debian on a PC? Is that about right? If Sony wins this case - yes, you bet your ass that's on the table. It's not entirely unfathomable to think that Hp or Dell won't follow suit and start strong-arming customers into exclusivity contracts for specific OS use, and to start creating lockout hardware that only allows Windows OS. IT makes total sense for them from a service/manufacturing standpoint. The PS3 is primarily known as a gaming console, but in reality it's hardware is no different than any other full featured, Class B computing device, not unlike those made by most other CE firms.

Apparently you missed the entire first post I made here where I basically told people like you that I don't have to actually justify my intentions to you. OtherOS LEGALLY allows you to run various Linux platforms on Your PS3. Since this is something that was originally provided to PS3 owners by Sony themselves, it is inherently NOT piracy, and not illegal. Therefore, no justifications of it's uses to you is necessary. and no, there is NO difference between a modded iphone/ipad being legal, and teh same ability being afforded to PS3 owners. In fact, the case that allowed iPhones to be jailbroken for personal use is only compounded by the fact that Sony provided PS3 owners the ability to run OtherOS originally, and then Took it away. It's touched by both the verdict of the iPhone case, AND consumer protection laws governing bait & switch tactics.

But this isn't entirely correct either. The Linux distros that run under OtherOS on the PS3 don't run any differently than they do on a PC platform. This isn't a hypothetical. It's the real Deal. Debian is Debian. Sure, there aren't ports of Windows or OSX for the PS3 yet, but that doesn't mean there won't ever be. It's simply a case of drivers, and kernel changes.

This argument is pedantic at best. It's like telling someone who wants to ride a motorcycle "I don't understand why you can't just drive a car." It's simple. Current Gen gaming consoles are just as powerful as most current spec home computers. They are capable of running operating systems and software effectively, in a convenient, consistently manufactured platform. They're a developer's dream, compared to the PC platform. Although there are a number of games I do like for the system, there are other things it is capable of as well, and I want to use it to it's fullest extent. I own it, therefore, I should be allowed to, barring any illegal pirated software. I don't understand why you have such a narrowminded viewpoint, that you think hacking always equals piracy. Just look at the iPhone. There are tons of useful, inventive, AWESOME FREE apps, that aren't pirated or illegal in any way, but that require the use of a jailbreak because Apple's publishing requirements are all sorts of retarded. Apple Jailbreaking however, is completely legal.

Plugging it into my 65" Mitsubishi Television in my Living Room, using HDMI, and playing PS3 Games, Movies, and any other program that will run on it that I choose. Something my PC cannot do. Perfectly vague. Well played. What programs are you running on your PS3? What homebrew programs are worth all this complaint? Remember, you said they were all legal. I have a PC hooked up to my TV, admittedly it isn't 65 inch, because I don't have money to throw around like that. That computer does all kinds of great things. It does them better then my PS3 could hope to. It doesn't play PS3 games, true, but my PS3 doesn't play PC games, so I guess its a fair draw on that. I have a PS3 as well, and its hooked up to the TV too. It plays PS3 games and I don't have this problem. I feel sure you also have both in your house as well, and if you got that computer in the last few years chances are pretty good it has HDMI too.... My point is you can do all the same things without having to worry about all this crap. The only reason to try to mod a system like that is to cheat or take something you should have to pay for. That is the only reason. So, what homebrew apps are worth this extra hassle? PS: I'm going to play NES games on my modded PSP while I eat lunch for a while. I say this because 1) its true and 2) I don't care what you pirate. I just don't understand the arguement that the main reason to mod a system isn't for pirating things. It always is. If you didn't want to do things you weren't supposed to with the box then you would have no need to mod it to begin with. You really should pay attention. OTHEROS.

Well, since you asked... 1- Computers are sold with the intent of allowing you to change the operating system. It's not super easy for the average person, but there's nothing in the design making it difficult. This is understood at the time of purchase. OTOH, at no point in buying a console will you be told that you can run homebrew games on it. Even if it's possible, it is not a reasonable expectation. Wrong. See: Sony Computer Entertainment, PS3, OtherOS. Sony Computer Entertainment, PS2, PS2 Linux. I'm well aware of both options. I even had OtherOS on my PS3 before Sony took it away. That's not the point. Sony did support linux, and linux does open the door for homebrews, but that's not the same as actually OKing homebrew development. The fact that Sony took out their OtherOS on the PS3, and only half-assedly supported Linux on the PS2, makes me think of them as little more than an aberration. Console makers don't want you running unofficial software on their systems. Sucks, but it's true. And more to the point, in no way is a backdoor Linux install comparable to the OS choices in the PC world. No one said they were. But this is like telling someone they cannot ride a bicycle down the street, because it's not as fast as a car. They are for different uses, different purposes.

Plugging it into my 65" Mitsubishi Television in my Living Room, using HDMI, and playing PS3 Games, Movies, and any other program that will run on it that I choose. Something my PC cannot do.

I would say "No its not illegal" but you are clearly an attorney. How about just don't buy the box to begin with. You had to know this was going to be an issue. If you give people the abiity to program for the PS3 there are going to be people that take that and make it do something illegal. You have to expect Sony to stop that. A few bad apples will ruin the bunch every time. What are you doing on your modded PS3 that you can't do on a PC? What is it about the PS3 that just said you had to have one for this one hacked feature? Cheating a video game? Getting something you didn't pay for? PCs can do those things too, and you don't have to deal with Sony breaking your box because you did it on a PC. How did people who bought the PS3 on launch day know that OtherOs was going to be an issue 4 years later?

I haven't bothered with PSN since about a week after I got my PS3, well before I hacked it. And No, We're not just talking abotu Emulators. There are hundreds of original homebrew games and programs, and many thousands of legal software that runs on Linux. What we're taking about is bait and switch. Sony advertising and selling an item with a specific feature as part of it's advertising "OtherOS" and then taking that feature away when they realized it introduced potential security/copyright protection issues. On it's own, the OtherOS ability isn't a hack, or even remotely illegal. Nor is it a Violation of the EULA. But selling it to people, and then taking it away is fraud. It's bait & switch. That is illegal.

Well, since you asked... 1- Computers are sold with the intent of allowing you to change the operating system. It's not super easy for the average person, but there's nothing in the design making it difficult. This is understood at the time of purchase. OTOH, at no point in buying a console will you be told that you can run homebrew games on it. Even if it's possible, it is not a reasonable expectation. Wrong. See: Sony Computer Entertainment, PS3, OtherOS. Sony Computer Entertainment, PS2, PS2 Linux.

So lets start another thread about it and argue about it all over again. How about this: Let's start this ONE thread about it, so all of the nanny naysayer trolls who like to go in and fuck up otherwise readable, intelligent threads won't? Something of a Neon bugzapper for people who want to ruin every decent thread about a news story in here with accusing everyone of being a pirate.

This whole forum seems to only really ever have two main topics in discussion, in every single thread: 1. (insert game name here) sucks. I'm disappointed with spending $60 on this piece of shit. 2. Hackers are killing my gaming experience. Wah Wah Wah my life is over, I might actually have to leave my couch for entertainment. As to point # 1 - I'm pretty sure this is one of the leading causes of point # 2. As far as quality of games - this is really no different from all the way back to the days of the 2600, and especially the NES. Game software averages 85% to 90% shovelware, and good to great games are pretty rare, even today with all of the insane graphics and sound and AI that is capable. Now as to point # 2 - Just stop it. There is a VAST difference between hacking a console for homebrew/emulation/educational/development purposes, and piracy. NOT all hackers are Pirates. I own this box. I can do with it as I please, provided I don't break the law. Installing a modified or alternate Operating system on a consoles is NOT illegal, provided it's not using stolen proprietary code. Running pirated copyrighted software - sure. THAT is illegal. But look at it this way. All of you champions of Sony and Nintendo - who snidely remark about "You're getting what you deserve, if Sony decides to brick your console because you ran a homebrew game on it." What if every off the shelf PC manufacturer started doing this to people running Linux instead of the Microsoft Windows OS that came with it originally? How is Sony or Nintendo threatening to brick people's consoles for running homebrew games any different than HP or Compaq starting a policy threatening to do the same to your laptop for running Red Hat, or Xubuntu, or something else? Yes - Pirated games are illegal. Those people should be dealt with accordingly. No one in here is disputing this. But the tinkers, The homebrewers, The curious console owners who want to learn more about what makes their system tick - you know what - you don't have the right to tell them what to do with their owned hardware. So really - stop playing forum cop. Stop bragging about how much you support Sony and Nintendo for illegally damaging someone's personal property. It's not germane to the subject at hand, and only serves to fuel arguments and trolling behavior.

The point is to be able to play prototypes, demos, home-brews, and rarer games that the collectors try to overcharge for. Also for development purposes.