Oswald

BTW, I've sometimes wished the sprites had stored bits 1-8 of the horizontal position in individual registers and grouped bit 0 into the 'extra' register, instead of storing 0-7 separately and grouping bit 8. That would have allowed games that didn't need the precise horizontal positioning to simply use 8-bit positions. thats a good idea indeed, never thought of it myself, but it would come very handy. a lot of games in fact use sprites at half X resolution simply because getting the 8th bit is easyer that way, and then one byte is enough to represent the x coord. the code then would look like this inside a multipexer: lda xcoord asl sta $d000 bcc nohigh lda $d010 ora mask sta $d010 bcs skip nohigh lda $d010 and mask sta $d010 skip

allas, simply just like I dont want code demos on pc, I dont want code demos neither on a8, cpc, ps2 or whatever else its as simple as that. but this discussion clearly showed something, even die hard terminator fans like you and thomas was forced to get a c= 8bit in the 2nd half of the 80s simply because the a8 line was commercially dead. while I have enjoyed fresh software support with my c64 into the early nineties....

you are comparing the whole A8bit line family against the c64 . you will not come out too good from such a comparison. I can take the colors from plus4, sprites from c64, sound from c64, basic from plus4, 1581 drive, 128k from c128, 640x400 screen from c128, 2mhz from c128, or I can take 256k REU (c= brand memory expansion) oh the irony )) I can get much better in all aspects playing your way ) No, actually is a 130Xe Vs C64 ok then take the c128 which came out in 85 aswell. faster cpu, 128k ram + 64k ram on the 80 column gfx chip(vdc), faster disk drive, autoboot, 640x400 screen without borders and dma memory copy on the vdc, can show two different pictures on two monitors at the same time, has two cpu z80 and 8580, faster better basic, better gfxmodes&sprites, autoboot, reset button, turn on off switch, keyboard, and whatever shit you listed there which every machine has since the 80s (like relocatable screen, charset, bitmap, warm/cold reset, etc) oh, and no the pokey is not better for sfx. if it could do better sfx then it could do better music aswell this is obvious if you know the basics of the logics.

you are comparing the whole A8bit line family against the c64 . you will not come out too good from such a comparison. I can take the colors from plus4, sprites from c64, sound from c64, basic from plus4, 1581 drive, 128k from c128, 640x400 screen from c128, 2mhz from c128, or I can take 256k REU (c= brand memory expansion) oh the irony )) I can get much better in all aspects playing your way )

the amiga OS was the first 32 bit Object Oriented Operating system with preemptive multitasking OS. Microsoft needed 10 years (85-95) to match it. as you were not interested and are not even able to tell how it could multitask I dont think you have any experience to tell wether it was chaotic or not. anyways if the Workbench is chaotic, then XP is chaos hell on earth

you got me right. anyhow at the retrogamer thread I have checked every pokey sound example I was pointed too, and then this guy just ignores sixteen years hillarious. but its even more hillarious when he brings up an atari demo as an example of good pokey sound, and then dismisses non gaming SID sounds saying he is only interested in games. I dont think you should either arguing with him there's no point. he's changing his own rules from post to post to his own advantage. very low and primitive I'd say. (btw did you know there was 2 rtypos (haha I mean rtypes :D ) on 64? check gtw, I'm shocked

yeah it was unbelievable technically for its time, in contrast the c64 come out with an unbelievable price:

nope. 5.9 What machine code is displayed on the Terminator's visual display? (The Terminator) 6502 assembler, specifically Apple 2+ assembly, taken from "Nibble" (QV), a computing magazine. Other code visible is written in COBOL. http://stason.org/TULARC/movies/terminator...or-s-visua.html

I attempting to be tasteful but it's real tossup between you and emkay who the king of the 15 year olds are. actually thomasholzer in my eyes took the crown from emkay with his 8 years old style debating no, I only except from anyone who respects himself as a grown up and not a 15 year old to admit that c64's graphics, sprites & sound are better than of the a8 line. resulting in better games in general. the whole timing of the whole machine is built around the video timing on the c64 same like on the a8. there's nothing exclusive or special in that in the a8. it just take a little knowledge on how these machines work in low level timing terms to see this. this is a fact and there's nothing to deny here. on the c64 for example when the 2mhz clock cycle is low the cpu gets the bus, when its high then its VICII's turn. if you change that 2mhz clock in any way the video signal will not work anymore. clear now ? the c64 has dma aswell just like the atari which again a lot of atarians used to think is something extra magically special. no its not. supercpu is just as hard to implement on atari than on c64, because both machines can work only at a fixed cpu-video timing. so saying that c64s built in gfx modes & sprites & sid is better than a8's built in same stuff, is a crime against humanity and tactless trashing? whats wrong with you? these are facts. and how does amiga come here ? where have I tactlessly trashed either amiga or a8? you're getting mad because I dare to say that the c64 is better in this or that? I did not tactlessly trashed neither machine. I hate liers you know. also my goal is not to make you hate the a8 or take away your memories. if you were above your mentioned 15yr old level you would see that. you know when an amigaer tells me amigas are better than c64s I dont take it as a trashing of my machine, but I had an amiga too, but even when a pc guy says pcs are more powerful than amigas I dont feel he is trashing my machine. why do you so ?

then think about it this way: the c64 has "DLIs" aswell, but it doesnt need to use them to get 12 colors on screen in charmode. also the c64 can get 16 colors on a line without using sprites in any of its modes. see, you need extra codings, and atari "sprites" to do things that doesnt even match what the c64 can do without extra code and sprites.

agreed, some people will never admit that c64 is better in gfx and sound and games in general. see my post above. wrong. you can get 2mhz in c64 mode in a c128, but then the display will go garbage. and thats because of the same thing you thing is something special and exclusive to the atari: the whole timing of the machine is built around the video chip. at both c128 and c64, but even the vic 20 c16 plus4 whichever you pick. this is not a jay miner style architecture, its 80s 8bit computer style architecture. and changing display modes on the fly or midlie is also not a8 trick exclusively, but simply how the hw architectures worked in the 80s.

well even a big bunch of atarians are saying that the c64 is better. then there are the rest refusing it until they die, with them we can go on forever indeed. some cant even admit that c64s charmode with 12 possible colors 256 chars and mixable hires/multicolor mode on a per char basis is better than 128 chars with 5 colors, or that c64's 16 colors in hires/multicolor modes are superior to those of the atari. and we havent spoken about sprites yet. there's nothing to argue about here in fact.

http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=12352 here you can download and check it in action. dont forget that its not finished tho.

no, you DONT HAVE ALL THE TUNES. you are missing 16 years of sid tunes and 16 years of development which resulted in having the sid sound better. which you refuse to check out to get a picture as of what the SID can do at its best. anyways you're not qualifiyed to be engaged in an argument which makes sense. so farewell. please dont even reply to this. bye.

there are various basic extensions on the c64 aswell. but are you sure the c64 basic is faster? the atari has a faster cpu so this sounds strange to me.

your comments are ridiculous. Your comments are like the people in the medieval ages who refused that the earth is round, and even refused to check the arguments which prooved that. You should be taken as seriously as those people. You're like the little kids blocking their ears with their hands and screaming "lalalala I cant hear you lalala". Alright dont check what the SID can do at its best, tho its far better what was done in the eighties, but then you're opinion is not to be taken seriously either.

thats your personal opinion... what matters here is mayhem does 9 colors (max possible is 12tho) with no tricks while atari needs tricking to get 14-17, and a lot from that is not true ingame graphics, but stuff lke water and some clouds, in the play area you have it more close to 5-7 colors with all the tricks. while the c64 can do 12 colors without any tricks. thats the HW difference.

you have checked the wrong c64 games. compare these (and this is just a sub list from a bigger one): http://youtube.com/watch?v=TEQcpLJa4PM http://youtube.com/watch?v=0BcIjsp94uM http://youtube.com/watch?v=CQ3CeHrPzxk http://youtube.com/watch?v=T7_idxmoJk4&feature=related http://youtube.com/watch?v=ovCZt8QUbAE the atari can not overcome these limitations. with some programming the c64 gets over 24 sprites each being several times bigger and multicolor with one own color and transparent. and movable in finer steps than atari ones. and you can animate and move them in Y without rewriting the whole sprite. they can be single/multicolor, have displayed under or over backgrund gfx, stretched to twice in x/y. no the atari can not do this. not even with clever programming. example:

oh ok, lets count it again: 40 bytes for char pointers, 40 bytes for char gfx, 24 bytes for sprite gfx, 8 byte sprite pointers, 40x4 bits of olor ram = 40+40+24+8+20= 132 bytes for the VICII....

do you know Trabants? its very similar to a mercedes, they both have wheels, doors, windscreens, steering wheels, seats, pedals, clutches, motor, etc. still the meredes is much better than the Trabant or well you as a trabant owner would say its not much better since the missing abs, airbag, airconditioning, gps, built in radio hifi, onboard computer from the trabant are simply just the emulation level loss of quality nope. its not cons and pros. the c64 graphically can do more. period. there are more games better on the c64 than vice versa. the game Mayhem does that without any tricks and there are no restrictions as of what color can be used on which vertical area like in Crownland which pulls it off with tricks. How many colors can the atari show in charmode without tricks ? 5. and have only 128 chars, while the c64 can have 256, and even mix hires and multicolor in charmode. the c64 charmodes are undoubtedly more powerful. just like the bitmap modes, sprites, sid, scrolling resolution, etc.

here you go, 2 bitmap pictures without tricks from the c64, one hires and one multicolor, and finally one multicolor charmode: without any doubt a8 can not display such pictures in any of its built in modes without using extra trickery.

oh then the VICII has 64 bytes of internal RAM in this context. (40 bytes for gfx and 24 bytes for sprites per scanline) but there's a reason we differentiate between RAM (=slow outside chip storage, big amount) and registers (=onchip fast storage small compared to ram) because they are reffering to two different types of RAM, so why mix them up ? its not semantics. its emkay's misuse of terms. (again)

you have brought up a demo as an example of the pokey's capabilities, and when I try to show you some sid tunes, you refuse to check them saying that you're only interested in the gaming era. very unfair and incorrect behaviour I'd say. and then I have choosed polite words to describe your behaviour. one thing could be said for sure: you can not judge how much better the sid is as long you refuse to check some tunes which stands really out with their sounds. so stop making such statements from now on. thank you

Have you hard speech on the sid without digis thomas, or are you stuck and thinking sid = rob hubbard quality ? even these days musicians push the sid more and more, so if you dont check out my examples you will not know what is the SID really capable of. but probably you dont even want to know, or do you?

Turricans, Creatures, Mayhem, Maniac Mansion, Defender of The Crown, Last Ninjas, Armalyte, Impossible Mission, Giana, California Games, Enforcer, Katakis, Skate or Die, Newcomer, Rick Dangerous, Midnight Resistance, Predator, Driller. most of these games feature ingamegfx that the a8 cant even do as stills (turrican, creatures, mayhem, defender, last ninjas, for example) so how do you think the a8 could even match or exceed their quality? and we havent talked about yet movement, c64 sprites and scrolling can move in double the resolution of the a8 in the X direction. few examples: