Oswald

thats something that never happens on the c64 (whats this artefacting stuff? I have no idea as never had a8). looks like the a8 designers had no idea how to make colors accurate in 320x resolution, the whole gfx engine is based on 160x. whats worse about TLN than action biker?! and what has the c64 sprites has to do with how isometric games work? its up to the coder. collision detection has nothing to do with how you display the game map. if its isometric its isometric. actually the difference is never bigger than 1.7, and thats when the a8 doesnt displays anything. Amaurote displays a bitmap, so the difference is smaller there. LN was so bad that it was the best selling game for the c64. also it was ported from the c64 to a lot of other systems.

Yeah, and everytime you re-use a color index with a different color horizontally and vertically or do multicolor sprite overlays, you are adding to the bit depth of the image with ceiling of bit depth set at 8 on the Atari (assuming no interlace). On C64, your ceiling is 4 so even if you had a C64 running at 10 Ghz you max out there. its 4 on the atari too. either monochrome, or monoluma

great, now that you prooved atari multicolor sprites are superior, why not do with them a turrican clone which would be superior to the c64 ?

16k of ram is still not enough for anything

Many new entries (software and hardware) this and previous year for Atari too, of course! Check http://atarionline.pl/, http://www.atari8.info/index.php?lang=en, http://atariarea.krap.pl/, http://www.abbuc.de/index.php and other well known links for homebrew production. how many in this year? just so we can compare if the c64 is dying with these nrs the a8 must be already dead ? I dont think it has more oh and ofcourse I wasnt allowed to count in demos, graphics, music, etc because the c64 has more of that .)

Oswald, did I understand you correctly that you are not counting stuff when it is not done in c64 way??? ehm.... ok maybe you wanted to say that when A8 is using special "trickery" only available on A8 then of course the c64 scene had not adapt it or created it... the FX are made in bitmap mode which VIC has too... so... they use interlace, which VIC has too they use hscrol shif which VIC can do they use 256 colours which VIC can not do but you could use your iFLI stuff instead they use CPU power which C64 has but not enough... most if not all of those effects were done better on a8. but I just said they were made for the c64 aswell (in similar quality and in many variations), which is correct I guess. check soiled legacy for a high res bump on the c64. error 23 for another bump and a highres 16col plasma (tho this is slowed down a lot because the demo loads while it is displayed, well some ppl gets around technical limits, some adds more mem ) btw, ifli is not an option as it neads 100% cpu where the picture is shown.

I will just do so, and ignore posts about what can be compared and whatnot. cheers

what moneysaving?! the only restrictions while designing the c64's custom chips were: time&available chip manufacturin technology. Jack Tramiel told the guys there's no budget. if Bob Yannes had more time he could fit like 9 or more channels into the SID with the same tech to the same chip size, but he had to use a poor engineering solution because -lack of time ! the c64 had better steering helper than most other 8bits, and those were the SID& VICII. the motor (cpu) was weaker tho me too. but thats just one game.

obviously the c64 can not do effects in a8 modes. if a8 didnt made an effect in a c64 mode then it wasnt done?

they aren't. are atari or c64 sprites more usable? whats better a multicolor charset with 128 chars or one with 256 colors and onscreen one individual color and hires/multi option per char ? is atari cpu faster or c64 ? which machine has more colors? which can display them more freely? cheers I think the main beef of deathtrap's argument is that we're arguing over 26+year old computers, both of which are great and have huge libraries and support. Why would you still harbor a prejudice against one or the other in 2008? It doesn't make any logical sense. I am arguing about objective numbers and scenarios. not about pejudices. just like tmr does. what doesnt make sense is people joining an argument for the sole purpose of stopping it by trying to proove it doesnt make sense. what does it matter to you about what ppl argue living hundreds of kms away from you? cant you leave them doing what they like ?

Yes, very civil of you, Oswald does name calling and you telling ME I will be banned? (I regard your answer was directed towards me, if not I accept your apology). And you even replied towards emkay: I have not paid very close attention to his posts. I suggest you'd better. (Oswald started calling emkay 'shitboy' or shittyboy, something like that, it's pretty nasty anyway, but if you can't even bother reading posts, I won't backtrack to find out exactly). I only told the truth about Oswald as he never even coded an Atari 8bit computer and seems to know better, but YOU BLAME ME?

The Apple IIe came out in 1983 , the original graphics was effectively 140x192x6 ( b+w + 2 possible colours/7 pixels ) ...here's one picture... http://www.flickr.com/photos/blakespot/2417886747/ and some more here: http://toastytech.com/about/myap.html Thanks! My apologies for the post up thread. It didn't go where I thought it would. I enjoy the passion for the older computers. It's a really great thing in this day, to be able to still enjoy them like we do. And the emulation comments are just spot on. Entire environments then fit on a thumb drive, you can lose in your pocket today. Just didn't want the emotion to end up damaging that. In all other respects, game on! From that sport comes the occasional person with that idea that pushes it all just a bit farther, and that's really what I like to see. So then, the question to Oswald was not why is he here in an inflammatory way, but more like "Aren't you here to see the old machines do cool stuff like the rest of us are, and if so, isn't there some quarter to be given for that?" That's all. I've no beef. Text sometimes is a PITA. ...and if we are to talk about SID less sound, can't we include the system speaker, or the AM Radio tricks? LOL!!! Game on!

I can. boulder dash fex. but why does it come from the a8? 9 game preview 20 games 23 utilities 39 non c64 based utility how much on the a8 ?

So you are saying you are just here to be a pain, right? Well that sucks, I think most kids here would rather not play with you. I imagine you had a "does not work and play well with others" on a report card at some point in your life. here, from now on post stuff regarding me here, including personal insults.

clearly the 2nd one is better. 2x2 pixel and 16k ram is not enough for anything even if the cpu is fast. what I find meaningless is how people are joining discussions finding meaningless, telling everyone its meaningless. its meaningless

I have not paid very close attention to his posts and nobody has complained about him. Please feel free to point out any specific posts that have been abusive. But don't do that in this thread, either use the Report button or send me a PM. Here's the thing. If Oswald is defending the 64 in a topic called "Atari v Commodore" then I don't think there's much reason to boot him. If only Atari owners debated then I think we would have concluded that the 64 causes genital warts by now. If he jumps into legitimate Atari discussions with bashing, that's another thing. -Bry I dunno, the bad language has to go Not to mention it's an Atari site, do any of us go to Lemon64 and start arguments? I remember some examples. and for the record: it wasnt me starting it.

they aren't. are atari or c64 sprites more usable? whats better a multicolor charset with 128 chars or one with 256 colors and onscreen one individual color and hires/multi option per char ? is atari cpu faster or c64 ? which machine has more colors? which can display them more freely? cheers

you are comparing a 20 years old game which had deadlines to met and was done purely for money, with a game done these days with modern tools, enthusiasts with unlimited time to polish, and a machine using more than 64k. I bet the c64 could do better with a REU (ram expansion unit) with todays knowledge, and it wouldnt need interlace to add colors. regarding numen: that textureless duke nukem like stuff is out of the reach on the c64. the speed is barely acceptable on a8 already, and on the 64 it would be even slower. the other effects were all done on the c64 during the 90s. yes its better. and do you know turrican, creatures, mayhem, last ninja, defender, winter games, armalyte, california games, pirates, maniac mansion, zak mcracken, skate or die, grand prix circuit, newcomer, katakis, midnight resistance, rick dangerous, stunt car, myth, power drift, salamander, IO ?

another of those emkayish arguments. what is a complete computer ?! I bet I've yet to see one. it would emulate the universe realtime or smth. because it can do 16 roughly freely colored Last Ninja with 3 hires sprites. 45 rainbow colored Last Ninja is ugly sure they arent. millions of atari stuff was sold and those evil forces alone can prevent a8 making better 2d games

I think you should open an "oswald" topic with emkay and alison, and discuss related stuff there. edit: you know what I'll answer: its endlessly funny arguing so that the opposite side tries to claim the impossible and is clearly wrong in the moment they stop its boring. if an amiga zealot would come to a c64 forum I wouldnt try to explain him how the c64 is better nor do I try to explain how the c64's cpu is faster as an a8. but its really enterteining seeing atariski "prooving" atari sprites are better or emkay saying a8 can do 48 color last ninja

Define "active". I see far more stuff coming out for the A8 than for the C64. I'm also willing to bet that far more people remember the 2600 than the C64. And even more remember the C64, 800, VCS/2600, pong units, vectrex, Coleco all collectively as simply "The Atari we used to have" or "The Nintendo we used to have" the kids were arguing in the schoolyards of who has the better machine. it was like todays xbox vs psp3. no way they forgot. Im used to look through lot of 8bit youtube stuff, never saw a comment calling wrong names. perhaps you can find one or two ? edit: see: noone forgets

Define "active". I see far more stuff coming out for the A8 than for the C64. I'm also willing to bet that far more people remember the 2600 than the C64. active = doing gfx, music, demo, game,crack, etc. You searched for: Releases matching: Released between: 1 January 2008 and 1 January 2009 Found: 776 matches. Refine search. http://noname.c64.org/csdb/search/advancedresult.php and as simply more c64 was sold than 2600 more people will remember it.

I'm doubt that. c64 holds the largest active user base regarding any 8 bit computer sytem. also I believe more ppl know it than the vcs or spectrum or etc. alltogether.

LOL

I was just turning back emkays argument on him. I like that bunny, but dont tell him I was gonna say... The Spectrum pictures show a lot of effort, but they also show that the hardware is very simple. The worst thing is having those squares around all of your game graphics if you try to do much color or when objects get too close. The system is best suited for text or tile-based games. you can do suprisingly nice stuff with the speccy tho, r-type, chase hq, the isometric games. check them on youtube