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solidcorp

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Posts posted by solidcorp

  1. Posted · Edited by solidcorp

    Excellent test and interesting topic...

     

    Have you captured both Stella PC output and the 2600 and compared the outputs?

     

    Are those scope traces from Stella or from an actual 2600 Audio signal, and if they are from a 2600 how are they demodulated from the composite TV signal (are they coming through a television)?

     

    If you look at the audio output circutry of the 2600 (left center of this schematic) you will see that the audio output from AU0 AU1 is coupled to the modulator through a series 47pf cap (ignoring the effect of the other audio output circuitry). Has anyone on the Stella project tried to account for the analog circuitry in the audio output and video modulator sections of the schematic. It would be interesting to remove the TIA and use a spectrum analyzeer to measure the frequency response to the autio output circutry or simulate the electronics using SPICE to determine what color that circuitry may impart to the digital output of the TIA before it gets converted to FM in the modulator.

     

    This all amounts to the output being passed through a high pass filter and my suspicion is that ultimately the low frequencies that are lost are too low to be heard, but who knows?

     

    In my experience, audio output is typically coupled capacitively so I suspect you'd measure similar non square wave results from both your PC and an actual 2600, but again this is just a suspicion.

     

    As far as reproducing it perfectly, I'd like to share this only somewhat related experience:

     

    Some time ago I made a laser light show that could use audio inputs to control the x and y position of the beam. I wrote PC software that would allow the user to create artwork that would get processed into a 16 bit WAV file. It converted the time sequence of X and Y positions into left and right channel volume levels. The WAVs could be played as frames or strung together to make animations. The problem I ran into was that the output from the sound card on the PC could not hold a DC level, it was capacitively coupled somewhere, probably in the output amplifier. When I connected the audio outputs directly to my osciloscope X and Y inputs and looked at test patterns the distortion was clear. Circles looked great, diamonds were ok, but squares, shapes where one axis was supposed to hold a constant DC value while the other moved showed that same characteristic distortion or decay towards zero. I tried recording test patterns onto a CD which is purely digital and playing them back on stereos and TVs but coudn't find any device where the audio output circuitry could hold a DC level. I added some code that would attempt to correct for it by gradually increasing constant signals but sooner or later I ran into the limit in the volume space and when the signal clipped the distortion returned. Every output device was different so there was no one size fits all solution. It was still a pretty cool project and great learning experience.

     

     

    [edit] I forgot to mention that Stella is absolutely awesome and I have been really impressed with how well it reproduces sound as well as graphics.

    • Like 1

  2. Posted

    To do the up/down hills, are you saying that it basically curves the Y axis instead of curving the X (like a left/right turn, but affecting the other axis)?

     

    And, do you recall if the dark/light grey pattern used on the ground is also a sprite in STUN Runner? To me, it seems like Roadblasters is somewhat different from STUN Runner in that STUN Runner's track is broken up into somewhat large sprite chunks (ala RadMobile) but Roadblasters works on a per-scanline basis (like Pole Position). Maybe I'm not fully understanding this though. I do get that the sprites in STUN Runner are tied to the road's position, but solving the hill problem always turns out to be a sort of chicken/egg deal!

     

    Yes... well, it curves both X and Y axis independently.

     

    In RoadBlasters, each line stayed at the same vertical position on the screen and moved left to right by an amount proportional to the curvature of the track, and inversely proportional to depth for perspective. The vertical timing or spacing of palette changes on the lines also had to take perspective into account.

     

    In S.T.U.N. Runner, the rings are sprites that don't actually have any depth, they have to be drawn back to front (painters algorithm) along with the sprites for the gameplay elements in order for "nearer" objects to draw in front of (on top of) "farther" objects. Unlike RoadBlasters whos track pieces were lines that just slid left and right, the ring and track segments slid left and right and up and down. The amount that a piece slid was based on the independend horizontal and vertical curvature of the track (which are orthoganal) and perspective. Perspective is a 1/depth calculation and had to be applied to the horizontal and vertical displacement of sprites as well as their scale.

     

    I don't recall if the rings actually moved all the way towards the player or sort of vibrated in place at a particular depth. If they moved towards the player they would always need to be resorted, but if a sprite represented the track at some fixed distance or interval, it would start at the far edge of its range, smaller, scale up, and when it reached the largest size for that interval or the nearest position, it would "become" the next farthest track piece at the far end of its range again, so you would have the seamless illusion that the segment moved continuously from the horizon to the point where you pass through it, but in its lifetime it would have passed through each sprite responsible for each particular depth.

     

    In S.T.U.N. Runner the ring/track segments use different palettes to achieve shading and coloring, there is no color cycling or color per scan line palette manipulation like in RoadBlasters other than the palette change that happens for the dash board.

     

    I do notice that STUN Runner doesn't seem to have hills at the same time as it's curving left/right, so that should simplify the problem somewhat.

     

    The S.T.U.N. Runner track can and does turn in all directions.

     

    That's an interesting solution to the forking road. I did notice something a little funky about them, but couldn't put my finger on it!

     

    I'm glad STUN Runner was done using sprites-- speed is of course extremely important in a racing game, and it turned out great! In fact, it's the game that sold me on a Lynx in the early 90s.

     

    I don't think the game could have been as smooth any other way.

    Thanks!

    • Like 1

  3. Posted

    The value of the source code of those products to Atari is so close to zero, I can't imagine anyone at Atari would care. What is of value is the trademarks (the name, the logos, branding, etc...) and the "look and feel" of the game-none of which is really a concern as far as release of source code goes. Just my take on the situtation anyway, the decision is ultimately yours.

     

    That's speculative, I'm not comfortable assuming that anything is invaluable to the rightful owner. If you would like to contact Atari and get permission for me to release those materials, please do.

     

    These games (STUN Runner and Roadblasters) are just great on the Lynx, nice work!

    I'm not sure you can say that the

     

    Thanks a lot.

    • Like 1

  4. Posted

    Both games run on a spline, to use the term loosely, that is to say they are on rails, there are specific paths the "camera" will take and everything in the world is scripted by distance.

     

    Actually, objects don't even have 3D coordinates, in RoadBlasters they just have horizontal position from the centerline of the track and distance. In S.T.U.N. Runner they have angle/horizontal position, depending on whether you are in the tunnel or on a flat, and distance. The scale of all the graphics was related to 1/Z, and the position of objects was relative to the centerline of the track or tube. This is not strictly accurate in 3D but has enough scale and parallax cues to give a convincing illusion. I solved all the perspective curving and placement when I did RoadBlasters. When S.T.U.N. Runner came up in the office there was talk of doing it polygonaly like Hard Drivin or Steel Talons and no one thought it could be done at a decent framerate so I decided to experiment with extending the horizontal RoadBlaster system to X and Y, which worked nicely in a demo and I got to do the game.

     

    The RoadBlaster track pieces were discrete scan lines, the S.T.U.N. Runner track pieces are quarter pieces I think, they may have been full pieces, I'm not sure. Quarter pieces would have allowed left right reflection, but not top to bottom because of the shading in the tunnel which is done with dithering. The pieces had to be drawn back to front (painters algorithm) because there was no depth buffer or anything like that. Fill was not really an issue, I just had to find an ideal tunnel segment thickness in terms of depth. In retrospect, if I had to do it again, I think I would break the rings into more pieces so I wouldn't have to raster large rectangles with large transparent areas. S.T.U.N. Runner also had to deal with split tunnels, there were no forks in RoadBlasters Roads. What I had to resort to was using full filled in billboard sprites for the splits until the players path was determined and then populate the tunnel that was chosen, which fortunately happened well before the camera reached the split. They happen really quick, but occasionally, I think you can see vehicles driving through the plane for a brief instant.

     

    This is off topic, but S.T.U.N. Runner really had to manage palettes well too and would interpolate between them as backgrounds changed as you entered different colored tunnels. In both games the dash boards are completely different pallettes which were changed by a display line interrupt, not an uncommon technique.

     

    As far as the coin op 3D, it was pretty basic geometry, elongated lengthwise, probably looked best flying straight ahead.

    • Like 1

  5. Posted

    Hi,

     

    I wrote both Lynx S.T.U.N. Runner and RoadBlasters and you are spot on. First I'd like to mention that I checked out your page and it is an awesome treatment on the topic, very nice, very detailed. Frankly, I don't know what more I can add, but I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have or discuss it.

     

    S.T.U.N. Runner draws many cross sections of track as sprites to create the illusion of a solid 3D shape which is much faster than drawing the actual polygons on the Lynx. The ship, enemies, shots, etc. are all sprites who have 90 degrees worth of rotation frames that are flipped horizontally and vertically to fill out 360 degrees of rotation with 1/4 the storage on the cartridge.

     

    RoadBlasters uses the paletized lines almost exactly as you describe them on your site. There are no hills so the lines just slide left and right to curve the track, and the palette is changed for each line to animate the yellow centerline stripes, red and white stripes on the edges, and background off the road. All the objects in the game are sprites with rotation frames stored in the cart as needed.

     

    With scale and palette animations, care must be taken to account for perspective. Size of sprites varies with 1/depth which is nonlinear.

     

    I have most of the S.T.U.N. Runner coin op C source files in the form of printouts, and all of the Lynx 6502 assembly source to RoadBlasters, S.T.U.N. Runner, and Toki, but I don't think I should share them. What other Lynx games released by Atari have source that is publicly available? If someone wanted to take the time to get permission from Atari, I would be happy to release all the source materials.

     

    The coin op S.T.U.N. Runner is truly completely 3D.

     

    D. Scott Williamson

    • Like 7

  11. Posted

    You can search for many many Sears, Wards, and JC Pennys catalogs as photostreams... (that will take you back)

     

    1980 wishbook Atari console $159

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wishbook/3114585618/

    1980 wishbook games

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wishbook/3114585830/

    1980 wishbook game prices, most are $19.95, poker and space invaders are $27.95, Chess and Backgammon are a whopping $39.95 each

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wishbook/3114586076/

     

    Inflation reaffirmed: According to the inflation calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/:

     

    What cost $
    19.95
    in 1980 would cost $
    52.09
    in 2010.

     

    Can you imagine what they would have paid for Boulderdash?!

  12. Posted

    It will be a sad day when he runs out of parts. He did tell me he has all of ataris microfiche reels when I asked him about TIA schematics. (Couldn't get them for me cause of the expense... but I'm sure he'll take the time when he runs out of chips)

     

    I'll keep that in mind and only order if and when the project is ready and order only the parts I need.

  13. Posted

    Sounds great, thanks!

     

    My 2600's are fine for now, I really wanted to know availability of those parts for another possible project which should merit buying several. I just haven't been able to find anything that matches the look and feel.

  15. Posted

    I have a Boss and I love it for certain games. Mine is still fine and I'm not sure exactly what you mean by spongy... does it lack spring? and/or do the switches sometimes not work?

     

    It looks like the internals of a Wico Boss joystick pictured at the bottom of this page are really similar to the internals of modern top fire sticks except instead of using microswitches they use leaf switches. The picture is very muddy.

     

    To clean a leaf switch you can simply run a business card back and forth between the contacts while holding them together with your fingers, or as a last resort an emery board or sandpaper. Some contacts are silver coated and you really don't want to wear that off if its still there because it makes a better contact and keeps the underlying brass from oxidizing.

     

    I can't tell if the centering springs are integrated into those switches or are above the circuit board. If the springs are in the switches and have been compressed there is not much you can do except maybe bend the spring arms sligthtly towards center. If the centering spring mechanism is above (as I suspect) that circuit board, you can disassemble it and replace or stretch the spring slightly to see if you can buy back response.

     

    Wico made coin op and consumer products. Here is a picture of another Wico joystick that used micro switches and has a compression spring for centering, it's from this site with photos of lots of Wico stick internals - all that I see seem to have the compression spring.

     

    Good luck, post pictures if you can.

     

    Scott

  17. Posted

    I would very much like to contact the Star Castle license holder.

     

    I was, at one time, thinking of purchasing the rights. I don't know that I ever would or not because of issues with the better half...

     

    Keatah, how much are the rights? Who is the IP holder? How can I reach them?

    (did you ever find Earth Friend?)

     

    Andrew, Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:09 AM you posted:

    ...I've contacted the copyright holder of Star Castle just to see what they have to say. I'll share their reply, if any.

    and I replied Thu Jul 21, 2011 at 10:23 privately via messenger:

    ...I have really really been trying hard to get the Star Castle license and am curious to find out who you are contacting at which company. You said it as though you *know* who the legal license holder is. As I said, I already talked to WB, WMS, and Atari, none of which know they have the license. If you have any inroads I would sure appreciate it if you either shared them or had them contact me...

     

    Who did you contact? Did they have the rights? How can I reach them?

     

    If anyone else in the community is able to help me contact the Star Castle license holder I would greatly appreciate it.

     

    Thanks,

     

    D. Scott Williamson

  18. Posted

    For those of you too numerous to quote who continually suggest that I'm teasing for the ego boost...

     

    I'm sorry you feel that way. Really, I am because that's not at all what I set out to do or how I had hoped it would be received.

     

    I made it it, it took a long time, it was hard, and I'm damn proud of it. I exhibited it twice where people seemed to genuinely like it, but when it was showed here I didn't know it was a mandatory prerequisite to share it (crimestopper actually shared it initially).

     

    If, after actually listening to the interviews, you really think that I took all the time and energy to write this game and make this cartridge only to parade it here on Atari Age to tease and to torment this passionate community then maybe, just maybe, you ought to reconsider who the "ego maniacal narcissist" may be.

     

    I'm done talking about this for now.

     

    D. Scott Williamson

  19. Posted

    Not to mention, there ARE ways to control the piracy problem if he really wanted to.....I'm sorry, I still see this as a case of 'look what I did, and no one can ever play it, heh heh!' ego stroking.

     

    I respectfully disagree... Are there any Atari 2600 games that are unrippable or unemulatable?

     

    I doubt it, the best we can do is make it hard, but without hard copy protection in the console the 2600 is a 6507 machine that can only run software out of a 4K address space. It's almost trivially easy to either emulate a 6507 to "run" the game on an ICE connected to a cartridge, or monitor the address and data lines while a game is being played "live" to map the data in a cartridge. You can add encryption or key software to the cart, but in such a small system with a community of experts like this, there's bound to be someone who would be up to the challenge of ripping, patching if necessary, and sharing the game. If the 2600 can read it, something else can too. It's only a matter of time.

  20. Posted

    This thread has gotten pretty ridiculous, with a new twist: "the trolling programmer".

     

    Anyway, if the footage of 2600 Star castle is indeed EVEN REAL IN THE FIRST PLACE, then we are faced with the question: could it possibly mean that the guy who marched through the doors of Atari's management and stated that Star Castle couldn't be done on the 2600 and convinced them to do a completely different game instead was:

     

    1) LYING?

     

    2) Didn't have the programming skills to pull it off?

     

    3) Too lazy to attempt a proper port of Star Castle?

     

    The game is real enough, I've exhibited it twice, people have played it on video and if you look you should be able to find links to interviews with live gameplay.

    • , Note: I mention that I did not discuss the project with anyone except my friends Kevin and Bob. I was not an active member of the Atari Age community, just an occasional reader. Upon review, at four minutes into the video I find it creepily prophetic when crimestopper says "...once I post this video to AtariAge.com there's going to be a fury about it...", though he clearly meant something less literal when he said fury.
    • on the melody cartridge, featuring crimestopper and I playing the game.
    • with full custom cartridge, lights, improved ship control, progressive difficulty, and AI truer to the original than the 2010 version.

    Perhaps my motivations and reservations are better explained in these interviews (I am more likely offering more fodder for criticism).

     

    As for Howard Scott Warshaws motivations, I can't speak to them in any way other than to direct you to the material I read. I'm a big fan - I certainly don't think he was lying or inferior in any way. After all Yars Revenge was his first Atari 2600 project, he did it in 4K, and sold well over a million units all of which are truly awesome feats. I invite you and anyone else to draw your own conclusions - read Racing the Beam, check out Howards Once Upon Atari documentary and read his interviews - Star Castles aside, it's all really interesting:

    Scott

  21. Posted

    (Personally, I think $75 + S&H for BoulderDash is a little nutty and at that price they will gross $37,500 in 500 units, nearly $5K over my asking price, but that's their prerogative and I wish them all the luck, after all it took the two of them 6 years to bring to market - that's a lot of evenings and weekends)

    There are only going to be 250 units of BD carts (that's $18,750, $14k less than your price) and it has way more overhead than you can imagine, FAR more than your game. There will be full-color, professional boxes (250, not one), 250 boards (which have 16k RAM, using 250 expensive microcontrollers) and First Star is taking a significant amount in licensing fees. This is the most expensive production for any modern homebrew game, hands down. The programming in this game is simply amazing and consists of thousands of hours of work by several programmers. You really cannot compare.

     

    My point is pricing is their prerogative.

     

    Your bitterness is noted.

     

    I can imagine, I've done a lot of licensed games, and I deal with the cost of technology all the time.

     

    I used that game as an example because everyone is familiar with it and Andrew is so vocal on the topic of licensing.

     

    They may be doing this for zero profit for all I know, they could have charged double and it wouldn't matter - they are within their rights either way and I am not going to buy it for $75, so it may as well be $75,000 to me. I didn't say it wasn't a fair price (which should not be determined by cost of goods and services but bound by it, to maximize profit price should be set by what you honestly think the market will bear over time), I said it it was "a little nutty" because I will not buy any 2600 game, BoulderDash or Star Castle it at that price.

     

    I was not comparing the technical implementations of the games (nor do I wish to).

  22. Posted

    godzillajoe, Wickeycolumbus, and others: Thanks for your interest, I'm sorry, I'm not planning to release my version of Star Castle 2600 at this time.

     

    potatohead, Emehr: Thank you for your rational and thoughtful posts.

     

    cd-w: Very nice work and good luck. (I've always encouraged people to explore writing this or any other game)

     

    Andrew Davie, roland p, potatohead: The licensing for Star Castle is far more complicated than a typical port, and while it may not be obvious in the posts on AtariAge, I put significant effort into obtaining the license while doing the game. Take BoulderDash* for instance, First Star Software is quite remarkably still in business making and selling products with the license and there is someone to negotiate with for the right to sell the 2600 version. The Star Castle property has changed hands several times in the last 30 years (Cinematronics, Tradewest, Leland, Midway Games, Wiliams, Warner Brothers Interactive, and possibly, though not likely Atari), and the current license holder is unaware that they own it. Anyway, I now have releases from the legal departments of Midway, Warner Brothers Interactive (the likely license holder), and Atari (Infogrammes). I'm still doubtful anyone here would have thought twice about licensing if the price were twenty bucks or if they were to just download a dump of the game.

     

    *Andrew Davie: Excellent job on BoulderDash 2600, it looks and sounds great. It's one of my all time favorite 8 bit games and it appears that you and 've done it justice.

     

    ----------

     

    Cynicaster, Random Terrain, rmaerz, et al: "how about a guy parading onto a scene..." I didn't "parade onto the scene", I'm a former Atari employee who was inspired to write the game to prove it could be done and done well on 1981 technology because a legend said it couldn't. I did it for me, crimifighter played the game at VGS and announced it in 2010 on AtariAge, not me. The discussion that followed was all quite positive until I mentioned that I didn't want to release the game due to piracy, after which I spent page after page defending my position.

     

    In 2011, I made improvements to the game-play, got my cartridge electronics working, fabricated a case and exhibited it again at VGS. It's something I am very proud of (most of what you see on Atari Age is something that someone is very proud of)... I not only wrote the software, I designed the PCB, wrote the bank switching logic, added lights, designed and machined the Lexan case on a CNC machine that I designed and built myself. This time I decided to put a big price on the one physical cartridge I made from scratch. Do you want to know why? Because of AtariAge. Because I was taken totally off guard at how quickly this community turned on me in 2010 for not sharing the game. It was those conversations that made me think to myself: "well, what would you let it go for?" - not "what is it worth?", not "what will the market bear?", not even "what is reasonable?" but what amount of money could I not turn down if offered. I didn't do it for money in the first place, if I had, it would have had a price tag in 2010. (Personally, I think $75 + S&H for BoulderDash is a little nutty and at that price they will gross $37,500 in 500 units, nearly $5K over my asking price, but that's their prerogative and I wish them all the luck, after all it took the two of them 6 years to bring to market - that's a lot of evenings and weekends)

     

    Is it worth it? I don't know. If someone eventually buys it, well, then yes, but if I never sell it, then clearly NO... but then again that's no different from it not being for sale at all. It doesn't matter, if YOU aren't going to buy it then what's the difference between "not for sale" and "costs too much"? (other than in the case in which someone buys then shares the game, which is relevant but beside the point I'm making here)

     

    Re-announcing the price after VGS in the forum may have been in poor taste, even antagonistic, but it was not unprovoked.

     

    The AtariAge forums hold a great community, full of experts and interesting people willing to help or discuss anything Atari, but not everyone has been so gracious. I've been villainized and called a troll here because I won't share something I made and I honestly discussed how I felt about it in just two threads in these forums - without resorting to name calling or threatening anyone's "exhaust pipe" I might add.

     

    Scott

    • Like 2

  24. Posted

    Both!

     

    Racing the beam is a fantastic book. The only one that I've found that chronicles that great era, introduces the players in context, discusses how the hardware drove the market, and where the market went from there and why.

     

    Once Upon Atari is another animal all together - a fantastic, personal documentary by one of the most influential game developers of all time. The interviews, by allowing the people at Nolan Bushell's Atari, and Nolan himself to tell you their stories and perspectives allow you to get to know these people in a way that I don't think you can from anything in print.

     

    Racing the beam is the book that inspired me to write Star Castle for the 2600. The chapter a Yar is born drew my interest to Howard Scott Warshaw, which led to my getting Once Upon Atari, and reading all of the interviews about Star Castle and Yars Revenge. I was a huge fan of both games and never knew their connection.

     

    D. Scott Williamson

  25. Posted

    I'm om the southwest burbs in chicago...montgomery right on the montgomery / aurora border (Kendall County)..I would certainly be interested...

     

    this might even encourage me to get through my longest and tedious project...the scanning of 1600 5.25 floppies from the milwaukee atari user group archive to ATR's and be ready for a DVD

     

    If you have any trouble reading the floppies, after you have exhausted all other options, you may be able to read them by carefully cleaning them with a cotton swab and rubbing alcohol. I just recovered ALL my data off previously unreadable 3.25" Amiga, PC, & ST Floppies. I wish I knew about this when I was recovering my 8 bit Atari floppies.

     

    See my photo blog with instructions here

     

    I repeat: I tried everything to repeatedly read these disks and they always had bad sectors until I cleaned them, then they read like new. (I only cleaned the ones that needed it)

     

    Do this at your own risk and I ONLY recommend it as a last effort.

     

    Here are some pictures - my photo blog linked above has more images and a complete description of what I did and plenty of warnings about what not to do.

    IMG_3996.jpg

     

    IMG_4001.jpg

     

    IMG_4000.jpg

     

    IMG_4004.jpg

     

     

    Good luck.

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