kisrael

Not me. The second I played SOUL CALIBUR (a launch title), I was like "holy shit". yeahbut... I dunno. I know it did Shenmue but could it have done a good GTA3? Not sure I see it that way, but I get your point. In most cases, its a case of one dominating and distant also rans. For example: Atari VCS was vs. Intellivision and a bunch of others, but the VCS was so far ahead of everything else in sales. NES dominated substantially over SMS (except in Europe) and also the 7800 and XEGS. The Genesis and SNES was the one where they were all really close, but for the first couple of years of that, there was also the Turbografx, which moved a few million units. Even the 32-64 bit generation had multiple players. It was first 3DO and Jaguar (and CD32, CDi and 32X if you really want to get granular), but the only ones that made any noise with millions sold were the Playsation (dominating) followed by the N64 and the Sega Saturn. I just don't agree with the Dreamcast being a "tweener". It was the successor to the Sega Saturn, which was the competitor to the PS1 and N64. it came out three years after the N64 and a year before the PS2. Certainly the games on the DC are, imo, a lot more like what you see on the PS2 than what you see on the PS1. Unless someone wants to show me Soul Calibur on PS1. :-) And the reality is that all of those systems (GameCube, PS2, XBox, Dreamcast) were all intended to be the successors to the last generation (N64, PS1, Saturn) I think partially I'm in denial because I don't want to admit how PS trounced N64 when the latter treated me so much better as a system. (and I tried to like the PS, bought a psone, looked for all the great cheap games and mostly found shovelware... if you don't like the main genres of RPG etc the PS was pretty bad) But I think you're overstating the Saturn! I know I barely heard of it at the time, and just like PS was 3:1 to N64, N64 was 3:1 to the Saturn. Plus, I hear how the Saturn had kind of tacked on 3D... I see it more of a stumbling way to get to the fun of the DC, continuing the tripping over Genesis add-ons...

what's the best way of getting WiiFit if you forgot to preorder?

Sorry, probably my old Usenet habits showing through. The generations counting thing was the most enlightening for me here... I love the DC but it felt like a "tweener" to me, and it still *feels* like most generations were the story of two consoles fighting it out with some others picking up the scraps (Atari vs Intellivision, NES vs SMS, Genesis vs SNES, PS vs N64) and then finally 3 stage fights (PS2 vs GC vs Xbox, PS3 vs Wii vs 360) That's how it felt at the time, but who knows... I do know I never saw a Jaguar, Turbo Grafx, or Saturn in the wild, so it's hard for me to give 'em full credit. Well, I was thinking about my previous assumption that "Worst. Generation. Ever" is a ridiculous , almost self-contradictory viewpoint. But I guess SOME generation has to be worst! But whenever it's the current one that happens to be worst, it sounds like it's running the risk of just being curmudgeonly. On the other hand, when I try to think "which generation is worst for me, then?", I realize my assumption that each generation can build on the previous, along with benefiting from better technology implies that I think the Atari generation is the worst (not going back to Pong-ish days etc) -- something that I wouldn't want to argue, 'cause I do love the Atari, and am glad that the style of gameplay lives on in casual games and minigames. So I guess then it comes to thinking about dominant genres.. you mentioned thinking there were too many FPSes... I'm more concerned about franchises, but hell... how high did Mega Man get on the NES, like 6? And there is still a lot of new and creative ideas being put out there. So... well, every generation has it charms. Though you're more concerned about the hardware angle, and I guess I just can't get past how this generation has a ton more power to play with. And I'm a little happier than you about how online options are being used. Right, at least by my reckoning... I still concede that certain genres are better served on PCs (FPS, RTS... not to mention a slew of casual gaming!) Alright, I guess I see the trends as fundamentally limited by the dumbing down console makers are forced to do (on the other hand, setting up a PS3 and getting the sound and HD out right was WAY more annoying than it should have been) Also, high speed internet is still far from ubiquitous so we have at least a while before tht becomes 100% neccesary (maybe not as long as I think though!) But as for upgrades... the Atari had the supercharger and the Genesis had the 32X-- As long as it's just hard drive space, that's just, quantity, not quality, and that's an ok place to put a price point without really breaking up into haves and have nots. (This might be why the 3D0 never caught on w/ console makers... not enough things to differentiate one company's product from another) Some people are griping because Xbox 360 titles like GTA IV aren't allowed to rely on hard drive installs, so maybe that limits developer options... conversely, tons of people were seriously kvetching at the one PS3 game that took half an hour to install... then again putting on my retro hat, I'm glad the N64 had a cartridge system, and wonder if solid state gaming will ever show up again, or if it will just be downloads...

It only captures about a quarter of all that, but have you ever tried Earth Defense Force 2017? Avalon Hill once had a fairly realistic wargame boardgame based on the novels.

Tank games are a sadly neglected genre :-( There was Battle Tanx: Global Assault (and just plain Battle Tanx) for the N64 and PS... this might be your best bet, really great games, though the systems are like ten years old...

Very good points. I think though it's helped me pinpoint exactly why I hate this generation so much. Yeah, I actually think this has managed to be a thoughtful discussion, sorry if I was harshly complaining about your dour viewpoint. It's funny how subjective a lot of experience is. I went to college, and was only in the Genesis/SNES time as a tourist... then after college I got an N64 at the same time I was living in a big shared house, and its 4 player amazingness means I will always look very fondly on that generation. I thought Mario 64 managed to keep some of the cartooniness but I see what you're getting at. It's funny noting how many cues the Xbox took from the DC, esp. the controller (and including keeping up the N64-ish 4 ports) I agree that the GC did a great job at button differentiation, especially compared to PS2... its controllers have been getting worse since the dual shock 2, with extra mushy buttons, removing rumble (maybe that's being fixed), mediocre motion detection, etc. I still see a giant gap. With very few exceptions, your game will work, and with the same performance, on the console it was designed for, and (though w/ the rise of standard game engines this is less true) it may well be customized to take advantage of the hardware. Which system configurations with differing inputs do you mean? Different video and sound outputs, yes, but inputs? And besides that, mostly you're talking about "how much can you store"... none for the lowend 360, not enough for the Wii now that the Virtual Console and WiiWare etc is really swinging, lots and lots with the PS3. But there's no equivalent to the PC world of diff. video cards and memory and processing speed and any "driver updates" are handled extremely seamlessly. (I got burnt trying to play punk freshman w/ their shiny pentiums w/ my lovable old 486 in Duke Nuke'em when our dorms got wired... since then, PCs just weren't much of a gaming platform for me, at least til the rise of casual and indy gaming) You don't NEED the network connectivity, but if you have it, you get big libraries of new downloadable games, some goofy gimmicky content, and the chance to play online if that's your thing. (not mine, and I dislike how it can push out split screen / shared view couch gaming, but still.) Well, I could compare the Atari (admittedly the release price is right before a big sock of inflation, so it's a little exagerrated) to a C=64 or Apple of the time. It would be a big chunk of that. Nowadays.... Can you get a decent web browser computer for $400, the cost of the most expensive console? Probably - but with a monitor? not sure. One that will play games besides casual downloads? I don't think so. Howabout $250, cost of a Wii? Forget it. In 2006, I was getting along just fine with PCs and laptops NONE of which could play humble GTA:VC w/o terrible stutter and framerate issues. And my 2001 PS2 was playing it just fine! And once I got a better PC (still in a slimline case, rather than one of those power monger machines) -- I STILL don't know why I can't play Darwinia without instant crashing. With consoles, I don't have to worry about it. (Some exceptions, like why the slimline PS2 won't play Puzzle Fighter, but those exceptions are pretty rare) Again, the hardware configs are pretty minor variants, the Internet services are very focused, I'm sure any console gamer will point out just WHY mouse and keyboard have it all over everything on consoles (and this generations controls?? They're 90% the same as the last, except all wireless, except for Wii... and in many games, Wii controls have a lovely elegant simplicity (like Excite Truck, or Mario Kart) like you praised on the GC; and pointer functionality (which admittedly is a way of sneaking DS or even mouse-like pointing ability to games, but it doesn't feel very console-y, more lightgun-y)

I take some of your point, but I would argue with some of the generation lumping you do. And I see that maybe I underestimate the importance of "also ran" systems, but still, it seems not that common to have three really powerful contenders going at once. Selling someone a zapper with the system or seperately is very different than selling them a system with different hook-ups, a missing harddrive, or no backward compatability. Not that different! Not enough to curse a generation. Previous generations had different size memory cards, and as systems aged often smaller versions (w/ different A/V hookups) were released. I can see that there's a larger level of seemingly arbitrary price distinction here (like Vista Premium Gold Super Edition or whatever) but all in all, not a big deal in terms of actually enjoying games. The idea of this is ugly, but I haven't seen it in that much use. I think I bought one pack for Crackdown, just like I might buy an expansion pack at a store back in the day. See I didn't buy expansion packs back in the day. I played videogames. Whatever you and your computer did and called gaming is between you and the terrible "games" you chose. Again while the potential for abuse seems there (like paying for extra weapons in Godfather... well, I guess we should expect extortion in a game about the mafia) I don't see it much in practice - - any worse than that Genesis Sonic + Tales lock on cart gimmick? Same idea. You only have a right to complain when it's obvious that game makers are holding parts of their game back to sell in bits and pieces. Until then you're saying "oh, darn, I have the opportunity to cheaply get MORE GAME without having to buy all new stuff" It is a videogame forum centred around systems from 30 years ago. You want universal praise for broken systems and forced controller upgrades, you can go visit Xboxer, Wii60, or one of the three or four sites that still centres around the PS3. You're in a forum called "Modern Gaming". You have some points to complain about, but if you want to argue this is like the worst generation ever, you're just sounding like an old crank. When system do a ton of what the old ones did PLUS new stuff the old systems could never do, it's hard to see it as all that bad! Or even in the nitty gritty. Who misses the crappy RF connections we all used in the Atari/ Intellivision days? The NES terrible connectors? The dumb delay in the release of the 7800? Or your talking about the controllers being bad? You may disagree with one or more of the following but: * the 2600 had an elegant stick, but really it wasn't great for your wrist and 1 button was kind of limiting * the Intellivision disc - some people liked it. Others.... just plain bleh. And the Colecovision mushrooms. * the 5200 non-centering controller etc etc. Fact is there is plenty to complain about every generation, but thinking gaming evolution is working in reverse is a mistake. (And controller upgrades? Like 2600 paddles and driving controllers? Like multitaps? Like power pads / dancing pads?) Whats wrong with it? the first question got answered in short order and now it's being used as a good ol' generational debate :-)

You're right, of course. It'd have to move up pretty far to make it to terrible. The lowest number of systems to choose from in the history of gaming. ???? how do you figure? Sticking with just reasonably popular mainstream consoles, last gen had: GC, Xbox, PS2, prior: PS, N64 (somewhere between those last two was the DC), prior: SNES, Genesis, TurboGrafx ... Right now you have 3 pretty damn strong contenders. How are you counting? Only if you ignore inflation. As far as I can tell, this hurts pirates and importers. I only feel bad for the second camp. NES: Control Deck, Deluxe Set, Action Set, Power Set, Sports Set.... this is nothing new! The idea of this is ugly, but I haven't seen it in that much use. I think I bought one pack for Crackdown, just like I might buy an expansion pack at a store back in the day. ?? What is this, Gran Turismo? One game doesn't condemn a generation. ?? haven't heard of that many. The Wii's controls were a bit oversold, but they often work pretty damn well, like Mario Kart/Excite Truck, Galaxies, anything using the laser pointer like function, etc. The coders don't always use them well, but when they do, it's great and new. Dude, you really like grumbling. This is a fantastic time to be a gamer. Games are coming out that just blow previous expectations for graphics and physics and size of world out of the water, and every console has big downloadable libraries of older titles so you can get the bet of both worlds on today's hardware. Online play is a solid reality, new ideas in control have been implemented to great and fun effect... the only thing I see wrong is too much coasting on existing franchises, but maybe that's because I don't see how todays "huh that's kind of cool" title is tomorrow's legacy franchise.

No kidding! There's not really anything that sold quite like the PS2 in history. It has so many good games and such enormous brand equity. Plus, its cheap and plays DVDs out of the box (unlike the other too). A great bargain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-...g_game_consoles - guess you're right about "quite like" though some systems came pretty darn close. It's interesting how the best seller numbers increase over the years, the Atari 2600 seemed like it was EVERYWHERE but it technically only sold 1/4 as well as the PS2 (though you maybe should include some population "inflation" figures). And then stuff that seemed somewhat established like the DC only sold 10 million. I think the last few generations of consoles have all had pretty damn strong offerings and unique titles.

Hell, I quoted him! Seriously, just like people who are against prejudice should be allowed to be prejudiced against the prejudice, I hate hating in general. Basically, everything sucks in some ways, and nothing popular sucks in every way, or even most ways; otherwise it wouldn't be popular-- it's the wisdom of crowds, even if you don't get it. I have very little intuitive feeling for why people like Tony Hawk, but I can still recognize it as a terrific series. Same with Final Fantasy or JRPGs in general...

quote blocks : not just for replies any more

I typed kotaku down as a part of the title for a reason. I mentioned them as a way to give credit to them, so I wouldn't be accused of plagiarizism. I wasn't accusing you but I WAS finding it confusing... you should probably wrap stuff in quote blocks, that would eliminate the confusion.

Yeah, we get it you don't like the Wii that much. Honestly, games only interest me in two ways these days: * a new game comes out like GTA 4 or Mario Galaxies and I play and enjoy it * I have some friends over and playmultiplayer games besides those things, EVERY system just kind of sits there...

I'm amused by some of the Wii Fit griping here. Nintendo is trying different things with games. I wish they'd make a version of Prop Cycle http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9139 complete w/ one of those floor mounted mini-exercise bike components. (heh, they have it for kids now: http://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-K5054-S...e/dp/B000NWU9NI )

Hmm. I wouldn't say FUNNY funny, most of the writing was pretty mediocre and the voice acting was worse. It DID, however, pack in a truckload of great small games -- I'll always remember lava surfing to that great surf rock soundtrack. And "beachhead" or whatever it was was great in multiplayer.

Ahh, hater logic. Cube > PS2 ("I know the XBOX and Cube are more powerful") and Wii > Cube (since it plays every game the GC does, and then some) but PS2 > Wii ("Yes it can out perform the Wii,") Well, I guess that's some good rock paper scissors logic right there! PS2 was a decent system with many interesting games built for it because it was so popular... like I heard how Katamari Damacy started on GC and moved to PS2, and they had great stuff like the Eye Toy and Guitar Hero and all that... a ton of shovelware but some gems in there too. I'll still always resent it for not having 4 controller support without a multitap. I'm sure that decision saved them like 28 cents a unit, but cost me a ton of multiplayer gaming fun. After the N64, the DC figured it out, the Xbox figured it out... only PS2 said 2 controllers are enough and then just made up a multitap ghetoo.

Ha, first I thought you were saying kotaku was copying YOU and then I still thought you were the write for kotaku. looks like you're doing some plagiarizing yourself I do think it's kind of weird that Kotaku posted the fake downloads WITH prices...

I still think people are too uptight about the cops and some other details in this game. That said, there are some things that Crackdown does better, including "sniping from an insane distance". Crackdown is less ambitious than GTA4, and what it does it does very well.

Me think you doth protest too much. This game is not crap. It isn't perfect, and didn't deserve the perfect scores, but it's big and rich and beautiful. The overdid the cops, and I dunno if it's deliberate or a glitch (maybe someone is stealing your cars when you get so many PS and you shouldn't really trust game reviewers anyway

LJ wasn't part of that mission. Brucie is hilarious. LJ is a great character too. "There gonna be an EXPLOSION!!!" YEAH BRO! 'CAUSE THAT'S THE WAY WE ROLL!!!! Brucie's just fun to listen to. So much dumb enthusiasm! He's funny even without (or despite) the "he's a closet case" subtext

I don't like to run cheats 'til I've finished the game, what kind of surprises?

First impressions from the first day or so * the polish on the UI bits is astounding. adding GPS pathing to the map is a bit much, but other things, like press up to zoom out on the map, radiio stations showing up on your HUD when you change 'em, and some other details just seem to reflect a lot of user feedback about previous complaints * the voice acting might be good, but the accents are kind of broad and clumsy * similar to what I went through with GTA:SA, when you start writing a character I might give a damn about, it takes me a while to come to terms with all the amoral fun I want to have with this game. Even stuff like driving sloppily! (I start to get worried that the game might start penalizing my guy with high insurance rates or something) As the main characters and supporting cast become more real, and decisions might have a moral weight, the contrast between them and the nameless strangers you can wreck havoc on with relatively little fear of retribution grows more stark. * this game seems to be the enemy of the completist... previous GTAs it felt like you could exhaust all the media the game had to offer... towards the latter half the radio would be repeats a lot, and every special bulletin was pretty clearly delineated. (Though I heard you'd get better coverage of some of the climatic events on certain radio stations in GTA:SA) But this game... from the TV having all these stations I'd have to just watch (not sure if there's ever a plot element with this), to a cellphone I actually have to manipulate w/ a UI, to the way it seemed set up so that the details of a mission (loan sharks looking in) interrupted the explanation of why the bridges were closed (Terrorist lockdown, cute -- as good as weather warnings, better than GTA SA "you're a marked man" and/or "repair" work) on the radio. Since then I've come to think the biggest issue is how sometimes you can decide to be merciful, but other times you get forced to kill in order to advance the story...

Puzzle League is pretty great! And the Pokemon version is fun in the grating taunts kind of way. Usual Gripe Variant: I'd probably buy it if Nintendo hadn't forced me to re-establish my N64 as my sole legal means of playing 4 player Dr. Mario at my friend's house, thus also letting me just play from the original cart.

Wii's probably is the best, but the software updates broke the version of Freeloader I was using to play the import only "Puzzle Collection". (grrrr, back to the N64 for 4player Dr Mario...)

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