malducci

There are more NES haters here than anywhere else I've seen. Man, jealousy never looked so ugly To the OP. List looks like, but the numbers look a little off to me.

That screen also made it exceedingly expensive. (might have been smarter to offer a lower-end model with cheaper passive matrix screen like its contemporaries) You think that's expensive? You should see the prices on the PC-Engine LT (not the GT). It's a PCE that looks just like a GBA-SP. Fold out style. And the screen is bigger than the GT(Express). I think that thing was like $600 when it came out BITD (and goes for just as much and more nowadays).

First, the Saturn. Though the Saturn certainly looked quite promising when it was being developed and released, it only lasted three years (it was discontinued at least year before even the Dreamcast!), it only sold 9M consoles (a very distant third behind the 33M N64's sold), and it didn't even have a true Sonic game (a beefed up port of Sonic 3D Blast, a racing game, and an "All-Stars" game was all you got). You might also want to read my "Top Five Reasons You Can't Blame..." post regarding the N64 using cartridges. And the N64 was the first ever console to feature a standard (not optional accessory) analog joystick controller--the Atari 5200 tried to make one (I think) but it definitely couldn't get it right. As for the TG-16, it sold a very meager 2.5M consoles in the US, was definitely not a true 16-bit console, and barely made a dent in the US market at all (my list was based on the US video game market, mostly). So clearly the N64 is far, far more deserving to be on the list than either of the consoles you mentioned. Check and mate. Uhm... "Was definitely not a true 16-bit console" Regardless of the argument, what relevance does that have? Nintendo64 isn't the 64bit machine that a lot of people think it is, or think that it's in its own generation (64bit), but nor does it mean, or detract, anything when one defines the consoles measure of achievements and such. The same can be said of any console, really. "it sold a very meager 2.5M consoles in the US" So this is "US history" only? Europe, Japan, and other regions are don't matter in history? The '16bit' Megadrive couldn't even beat the 8bit NES in Japan. Yet the 'not a true 16bit' PC Engine had no problem beating both the Famicom and Megadrive. But that doesn't count for anything, right? There's more the rules than just sales numbers, too, according to the OP. Many of the TG/PCE accomplishments directly effected the coarse of game console makers and history. "You might also want to read my "Top Five Reasons You Can't Blame..." post regarding the N64 using cartridges." Why? This has already been discussed a hundred times and a hundred different ways, and the conclusion always comes out the same - an overall mistake on Nintendo's part regardless of a few small positives. You have some info to support Nintendo's decision to stick with carts that no one else has though of or used yet? Doubtful. Highly doubtful. Regardless of the numbers of N64 unit's sold in the 'US', the system is pretty much a joke when it came to the library (and so were the lower resolution textures than the previous two competing consoles, despite coming out 2+ years later). The inflated sales figured in the US came from Nintnedo loyalist that held the belief that the system was going to be the next NES/SNES. And the sales figures in Japan are arguably laughable considering Nintendos history. Seems most of the Japanese gamers had more sense than most of the Americans. The PCE/TG16 was the first full portablized console (PCE GT / TG Express). First console to use CD media for games (that's a pretty damn big one right there). Was the first console that the addon media format surpassed the original media format, to become the main format (and probably the only console to do so). And the first console to make an all-in-one unit because of that fact. Was the first system to use real voiced dialog (not short snippets or 'phrases'). Was the first system to move away from 'chiptunes' and offer real soundtracks. AFAIK, the first game console to have 5 player support. Beat the Famicom and Megadrive and was the direct competition for the SFC. Lasted from 1987 or 1999 (last official game released in Japan). Yeah - it's probably not be on a lot of people's list, but it definitely deserves more credit than you give it. And the N64 deserves much less credit than what most Nintendo fanboys give it.

The N64 shouldn't even be on that list. It wasn't the first game console to have an analog joystick. Might have been the first one to have it packed in, maybe. Other than that, there's nothing significant about the n64 compared to the Saturn and PlayStation - other than the retarded move by Nintendo to stick with carts and the fanboys that always try to back up that decision was some sort of excuse. Take off the N64 and put on the PC-Engine. Or TG16 if you're sticking to US only systems. It was the first gaming console to feature a CD drive. Even in the US if you go by that date.

TGCD and SegaCD are both 1x speed drives.

I like it. Looks more like egg shell than true matte, though. BITD, I did my original Turbo Duo as slightly soft/off white in pure matte (special "plastic dye" paint with a beautiful spray tip that gave an incredible finish. I still have it to this day, but over the years it got some wear and tear on it ). Are you using any special plastic etching/bonding primer first, before applying the paint?

Say what you want about SMB 1, but it doesn't resolve the matter of shaq-fu sucking ass godslabrat: (try to) Beat the game first, then come back with a comment. But yeah, it's not the worse game out there (there are plenty of train wreck games out there). But that doesn't change the fact that it's a shitty game. Come on, now

You just happen to like a shitty game, that's all. Happens to the best of us. Don't sweat it

Sure. I suppose it's the best term I can give it, the term for homebrew is defined as "A beverage made at home"; the term can be extended to other things as well. Hardware and software can apply. Sure, yeah. It can. Just sounds a bit funny though when used in that context, that's all. I think MOD would be more appropriate (since it's been used before to describe consoles hacks/projects into portables and whatnot).

Homebrew?

I dunno. There are plenty of coders that program in assembly language for the NES. Their background is irrelevant as how they came to obtain their knowledge, and for whether they're motivated to create a project on a much larger scope/scale. I have lots of experience with coding on old consoles, with public and private demos, RE'ing systems, exploiting hardware and such, emulating stuff - for a few years now. And I have yet to make a "game". I want to and have even planned/started projects - but it's a lot of work for one person (even two). Sometimes it has to do with finding free time, other times it has to do with keeping the motivation (or it turns into "work" and you rather be doing something else. Just like anything else in life). I'm sure quite a bit of knowledgeable and experienced coders for these old consoles have been in the same or similar positions, preventing them from finishing a product for said system.

Well, then you misunderstand the term "homebrew".

Pier Solar has also been in development for like 5-6 years (total). It's takes a lot more than just technical knowledge of the system to develop a game. I've never seen the Jag homebrew games, but there's always exceptions to the rule (relative to a more complex system requires more effort to achieve to what is considered acceptable by the system's library standards).

Does the OPL3 have an algorithm using the individual carriers/operators as separate voices? (like algo 7 in the YM2612) Or the OPL2 for that matter. (less useful, but still more than just sine -1/2, 1/4, and absolute sine) Yes. Both OPL2 and OPL3. It's additive synthesis, but if you treat the carriers separately in that mode, then it's the same as separate channels (the reverse is also true for systems like the PCE where they can do additive synthesis by combining 2 or more channels in unison). In other words, it's additive synthesis because you use it as such - else it's not. Here are some docs: http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article447.asp http://www.oplx.com/opl3/docs/ymf262.pdf For OPL3, you'd define a channel as 2op mode, then use all 4 operators as single channels (and select from 8 waveforms). OPL2 waveforms: WaveForm 0: Sine WaveForm 1: Half-Sine ³ /~\ ³ /~\ /~\ ³/ \ / ³/ \ / \ Ä/ÄÄÄÄÄ\ÄÄÄÄÄ/ÄÄ ÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÁ-----ÁÄÄÄÄÄÁÄ ³ \ / ³ ³ \_/ ³ WaveForm 2: Abs-Sine WaveForm 3: Pulse-Sine ³ /~\ /~\ ³ /~| /~| ³/ \ / \ / ³/ | / | ÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄ ÄÅÄÄÄÁ-------ÁÄÄÄÁÄÄÄ ³ ³ ³ ³ OPL3 extended waveforms: WaveForm 4: Sine - even periods only ³ /~\ /~\ ³/ \ / \ ÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ\ÄÄÄÄÄÂ-----------ÁÄÄÄÄÄ\ÄÄÄÄÄÂÄ ³ \ / \ / ³ \_/ \_/ WaveForm 5: Abs-Sine - even periods only ³ /~\ /~\ /~\ /~\ ³/ \ / \ / \ / \ ÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÁ-----------ÁÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÁÄ ³ ³ WaveForm 6: Square ³-----¿ Ú-----¿ Ú-----¿ Ú- ³ | | | | | | ÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ|ÄÄÄÄÄ|ÄÄÄÄÄ|ÄÄÄÄÄ|ÄÄÄÄÄ|ÄÄÄÄÄ|ÄÄ ³ | | | | | | ³ À-----Ù À-----Ù À-----Ù WaveForm 7: Derived Square ³ |\ |\ ³ | \ | \ ÄÅ--__ÄÄÄÄ|ÄÄÄÄ~~-----__ÄÄÄÄ|ÄÄÄÄ~~----- ³ \ | \ | ³ \| \|

It may not be good as a direct replacement for a square wave, but it's an interesting sound in its own right. Algo #7 allows for a finer resolution square wave implementation. But you're right, two channel method is different enough from a normal unmodified sinewave for sharper frequency response like normal square wave. I don't know. OK, but that configuration would still limit those 2x 2-op voices together for that FM channel when using the hard panning stereo or controlling volume, right? For the YM2151 or YM2203, the stereo would be a non-issue. (those are mono only) Yes. Stereo panning is limited to the "channel", not the carriers. But you still have ADSR, master volume control, and frequency period (notes) over each one, so it's still equivalent to, two audio channels. You can take it further and have 4 channels per "channel". But you'd only have sine as the output (you still have ADSR, master volume, period control). Sine by itself is kinda bland, but you could technically have up to 24 plain sinewave channels just for the FM chip if you wanted (Algo #7). Would have been great if more waveforms were selectable. It would make that option *much* more useful. Well, having an external DAC vs an internal DAC is irrelevant. Either way, all channels are put together with an ADDER (and possibly clipped), before being sent to the DAC. The hardware could have been made to pass direct writes to the internal data register (the channel sample buffer) if it's internal or external, because it would be added in, in place of the original channel sample hold/buffer.

Maybe my understanding is too limited, but that looks like it's simple additive synthesis using sine waves not FM. Kinda. All amplitudes add (amplitudes are signed, so they subtract too). Anyway, the chart shows using just two sinewaves, in comparison to using 3 or 4. Two doesn't really cut it IMO, especially for mid range (and lower) frequencies. PSG is limited in range for the SN76489 variant. With 10bit precision, you're limited in range before you start getting out of tune frequencies (which is most SMS games have a limited frequency range for notes/music compared to the NES). If you wanted a square output with finer control, adding sinewaves from multiple carriers on the FM chip would be better (which I believe TmEE does for some of his square lead stuff). 50% duty cycle. But it has more than just square waveform support (saw and something else too). Hmm. I don't remember specifically about the OPL2 waveforms. I want to say it had more than just sine, but I can't specifically recall. Yes. See the algo's here - http://www.smspower.org/maxim/Documents/YM2612#page3 . Algo #4 sets up as two 2-op modes in a single channel. IIRC, it's better than 4bit linear PCM (it's either 8 or 7 bit non linear PCM). I'll have to track down the game and record some samples from DOSBOX to see. Not that I know of. It's mostly used in PCs, which already have a ~20khz timer.

You'll need more than 2 modulators. Here's a chart showing a square built from sinewaves - http://www.fly.net/~ant/bl-synth/4.harmonics.html For really high frequency, two carriers might cut it - but that's still kinda sloppy for a square waveform. But 18 channel OPL3 chip is more capable than the 2612 (although you need some macros to really get the most out of the opl3). The fact that you can modulate with the other waveforms is nice, among some other features. 18 channels sound like a lot, but you can divide the 2612 into 12 2op channels (if you don't use channel six for direct DAC writes). The opl3 has a feature where you can freeze a carrier (there's 36 carriers total on the chip) in place and use the volume control as a DAC (a PC pinball game did this). Not the best DAC output, but still interesting.

It was the complete opposite for me. I hated US made *crap) games. Japanese knew how to make great games. US stuff was low grade, simplistic, poor art and graphics, poor sound, and felt souless. EU tried to somewhat copy that Japanese fell, but failed IMO for the most part. Almost everything before NES never interested me. Even before I had a NES. When I was younger, I'd rather go outside and play and such (even program on my home computer). When NES came around, that all changed (that and Japanese arcade games). The Japanese showed the world how to make "real" games, thanks to the NES.

Accuracy depends on where one puts their threshold of the definition. I believe you're missing the term/stage "recession", which can easily be applied to a lot of scenarios in gaming history. Which goes back my original point, people are using the term incorrectly or without care or just blatantly without any regard to context. Things are always more exciting that way Exactly how those of us there during the '76-'84 years felt about our generation. Though I for one was turned off by the plethora of crappy "same thing different day" platformers when the NES started becoming popular in '87. Yet you weren't turned off by the stock piles of crap coming out before the NES? Yeah, yeah I know it all comes down to a matter of taste and relative to personal experience (attached memories and what not), but I still find it hilarious when gamers of the previous generation think the NES era was crap or huge majority of crap. Gets a laugh out of me every time. More so when they try to state it as fact and make some ridiculous point based on that premise.

I think you need to clarify the context of "hate". Hate as in a specific console because it constantly lockup up, reset, or whatever; or hate in general for that system (what it stands for, what it is, etc)? I don't think I had any hate in either context for a system, that I recall.

I'm not sure what I played, but it was in the arcade next to our house. Sometime in 1981. I was pretty young. I remember the plaza and arcade store very well, just not the specifics of the arcade games. I played a Coleco in '83 and we got our first home computer that same year with some games, IIRC. I might have played a 2600 briefly at friend of a friends house around '81. I remember the system, but don't remember playing it (or being excited about it).

Yeah, you could do that. Variably set sections of the external address range with different programmable wait states. But the SNES didn't do that. The SNES simple divider the external memory address in half. The upper "could" be used for faster memory or rom, but the first half is always in slow mode (which I stated in that reply, you just replied to). Compression is extremely variable in nature. A few changes can lead to size changes that require restructure and such of the rom layout. Not to mention most advance compression routines are sequential in access and need to be decompressed to a buffer to grab something in a the middle of a block. It is doable, and some SFC carts have gone this route(hardware decompression), but overall I don't think it's worth that much. Not to mention that almost all carts from that era for the 16bit consoles, already use compression. Quite a few schemes too. Adding a hardware decompressor isn't going to improve much, if anything, over those existing cart sizes already. A blitter is going to require two separate buffers (each the size of the screen width/height). Not to mention access to rom (leaving it to a small ram cache would be a terrible idea, but on a console - you might have to do just that). I.e. wait states and/or interleaved access, etc. There's also the fact that a blitter system requires more CPU involvement. It's not as simple as simply updating a single SAT entry. A blitter can be more flexible, but requires much more cpu involved relative to a raster based video compositer.

ShapeShifter - nice graphics/colors. Big bosses. Pretty good music. Terrible, terrible gameplay/collision mechanics (especially the cat form, but not limited to).

S-video on my model 1 SNES looks extremely sharp. I couldn't imagine anything sharper via s-video for it.

Exactly what I was thinking when I read through this thread. Because people don't have a clear understanding of what a crash is? Why they don't? I dunno. It's pretty easy to understand. I think it's probably more about people trying to make things out to be more than what they were/are. This seems to be very popular in the retro gamer community since the pass ten years or so (re-write the wrongs! Or re-write history using scattered/makeshift facts and theory, to project their own version the as the ultimate truth. Never mind if it's biased or not. Or some people just want the have information that no one else thought or knew, even if it's the result of distorting facts. ETC).