frenchman

I wouldn't say Apple was a casualty at all - Commodore and Atari aren't the ones selling iPods and iPhones - and which company went tits-up first, Atari or Commodore? Seeing as how the even the Vic-20 came out AFTER the Atari-8, why didn't the Commodore 64 (or the Vic, for that matter) best the Atari in every single way? After all those years to copy, it should have been expected. Even the Atari 2600 had 128 colors in 1977. Actually Apple 2 was not a casualty at all, as the Apple 2 had already established itself in schools, that is something the C64 never managed, not even in UK. Apple 2 had the most software of all 8-bits (as I previously shown from that 1985 magazine report, here's a reminder): and even after C64 support dried up in the USA, games were still being made for Apple 2, eg Prince of Persia, Mines of Titan...etc. From Wiki: " By the end of its production in 1993, somewhere between five and six million Apple II series computers (including approximately 1.25 million Apple IIGS models) had been produced." "During the Commodore 64's lifetime, sales totalled 17 million units, making it the best-selling single personal computer model of all time. For a substantial period of time (1983-1986), the Commodore 64 dominated the market with between 30% and 40% share and 2 million units sold per year, outselling the IBM PC clones, Apple computers, and Atari computers." C64 outsold Apple II 3:1. I think it sums it up pretty well. Sums nothing up. C64 outsold other 8-bitters, but still Apple 2 was in USA schools, not C64. That was important for software companies back then. And if your way of thinking 'best selling is better quality', you must love the Spectrum, best selling computer in UK. Or lets put it this way, Apple 2 had most software of all the 8-bits, in your way of thinking Apple 2 software is best then.

I wouldn't say Apple was a casualty at all - Commodore and Atari aren't the ones selling iPods and iPhones - and which company went tits-up first, Atari or Commodore? Seeing as how the even the Vic-20 came out AFTER the Atari-8, why didn't the Commodore 64 (or the Vic, for that matter) best the Atari in every single way? After all those years to copy, it should have been expected. Even the Atari 2600 had 128 colors in 1977. Actually Apple 2 was not a casualty at all, as the Apple 2 had already established itself in schools, that is something the C64 never managed, not even in UK. Apple 2 had the most software of all 8-bits (as I previously shown from that 1985 magazine report, here's a reminder): and even after C64 support dried up in the USA, games were still being made for Apple 2, eg Prince of Persia, Mines of Titan...etc.

Don't think the Japanese would agree.

Here's another one of those comparisons Rocky did: Kick Off (Anco) C64 review in ZZAP! 64 issue 56 "the C64 just doesn't get started, appalling, graphics have ropey animation, sprite flicker (what? on a C64?), slow moving sprites, weak sound effects and no tunes...etc" 37% out of 100 Another crap game comparison from the 10 year old master.

Sorry, your logic just totally collapsed there... the Zzap! review was pointing out the blockiness in Milk Race because what it was doing wasn't the norm on the C64, so your comment about the "low-res C64" when the mag you're quoting are lambasting that game specifically for being a lower res than the C64 would usually offer takes a severe kicking; even if it struggled back to it's feet, the A8 version of Milk Race being a lower resolution than the C64 one floors it a second time... Nah my logic is spot on, Rocky Mountains compares a crap C64 title (which were common if you flick through the ZZAP! 64 issues) with an equally crap A8 title. No win situation for C64, now that's logic. But feel free to pass on this info to Rocky, he adores those C64 titles. So, your logic is spot on indeed.... . Well, thank you very much, but I knew this already.

Contrary to most atarians I prefer more hi-res graphics than less low-res on screen. Therefore, I use a lot of emoticons. Love me or hate me. What was your comparison? Milk Race. Oh yes, as printed in ZZAP! 64 issue 28: "blocky cyclists, Legoland backdrops, awful collision detection, badly animated riders, poor joystick control....etc; overall 34 out of 100%" You stick to your low-res C64. You still don't get any hints, do you ? but that's okay, I guess we shouldn't expect too much from you in that department LOL Hints from a low-res C64er? Why? It would bring the A8 down.

Sorry, your logic just totally collapsed there... the Zzap! review was pointing out the blockiness in Milk Race because what it was doing wasn't the norm on the C64, so your comment about the "low-res C64" when the mag you're quoting are lambasting that game specifically for being a lower res than the C64 would usually offer takes a severe kicking; even if it struggled back to it's feet, the A8 version of Milk Race being a lower resolution than the C64 one floors it a second time... Nah my logic is spot on, Rocky Mountains compares a crap C64 title (which were common if you flick through the ZZAP! 64 issues) with an equally crap A8 title. No win situation for C64, now that's logic. But feel free to pass on this info to Rocky, he adores those C64 titles.

Obviously your sense of humour box needs a total reboot again.. If you can't see the irony in what I posted then god help you.. Anyway, I'm done with you now once and for all.. You're a tedious man with a penchant for twisting the words of others to meet your agenda.. Auf wiedersehen.. Damn you andym00...you did it again and I almost died laughing Wow, you seem to laugh about anything Andym00 says, joined at the hip?

Contrary to most atarians I prefer more hi-res graphics than less low-res on screen. Therefore, I use a lot of emoticons. Love me or hate me. What was your comparison? Milk Race. Oh yes, as printed in ZZAP! 64 issue 28: "blocky cyclists, Legoland backdrops, awful collision detection, badly animated riders, poor joystick control....etc; overall 34 out of 100%" You stick to your low-res C64.

that's better

As for breaking down A8 fdds, I got 4 working since 1985 without any problems. Some fantasy story you picked up from C64ers perhaps? C64 was indeed more popular, that is why software was more readily available. But in Europe A8 software was always available, even in the UK all software shops used the 'Software Link Chain' which would order any piece of software for your A8 within the next day. No probs there. Well, you got 300+ gorgeous A8 cartridges for excellent retro gaming needs to choose from. Nothing shameful about that.

No! Your point is that the C64 is the superior machine. Superior implies that it is doing all better.... You wrote: Why don't you just admit the shortcomings of the A8 instead of trying to pass off worse quality stuff than the C64 can do? After putting a less complete version of the A8 to compare with a complete picture of the C64. And I was only showing the direction... In other words, you again hammered on the weak spot of the A8, the intentional reduced colours, to show that the C64 can do better.... every C64 freak comes here and is doing the same. ..... Here's a quote what the experts have to say about this subject (from Commodore magazine ZZAP! 64, Issue 10 and Issue 11 Lucasfilm interview). " We're generally of the opinion that the Atari (8 bit) is a better computer for graphics at least, and it's easier to do fairly spectacular things on it." "...the major problem I think with the Commodore version is its lack of high resolution and the graphic presentation. The game dynamics themselves are exactly the same as the Atari version and the two run at exactly the same speed. So, that was of primary importance -- in order to make the gameplay the same as the Atari version. The game originally was not designed with conversion in mind, and so it made extensive use of the advanced hardware in the Atari, so as to perform the animation of the grid and so on." "I think our stuff looks the best on the Atari, but they're fairly close on the Commodore, although the graphics are certainly slower. We've been able to come across on both machines. There are some things you can do on the Atari that you just can't match, like the shading -- if you take a look at Koronis Rift on the Atari."

Maybe Seawolf (arcade) comes close. My microvision works fine too, I got the German version of Sea Duel, which is called, funnily enough, See-Duell:

Quite the contrary, you need some serious lecture on Arcade machines. When you ask me silly questions like above it only proves that you don't know what you are talking about :D And right at this moment Rocky Mountains has become the authority on cabs, actually lecturing owners of arcade machines. He obviously googled. The C64ers must be very saddened by the fact they have him to defend Commodore 64.

Sounds like you never played the arcade Rockford. Whatever the case it sure burns your butt that the A8 version is better! Thanks budd You don't actually believe Rocky Mountains is capable of doing his own research, do you? You know, judging by his posts so far, he might own a C64/tape player (plus all the budget titles from UK software houses from way back), probably never even touched a Colecovision nor a 5200 either (Yes, I know, it (5200) was never released in Europe, didn't stop me to own one). He just uses other forum replies and posts them here, that's all. And the so-called hardcoregamerwhatever.net reviewer missed out the NES version in his comparison? Not very hardcore, if you ask me. As for comedians, if we are you should be dead by now. Go for it big boy.

I don't know* what he coded-only, produced-only or designed-only, but he's an all-rounder alright. *I know most, but sometimes attention's going (must visit 4chan to get those glasses) Yes, and by the same lack of exact information you don't know what I coded, produced, etc from the C64 days through to now Pete Exactly, and Heaven/TQA has the same lack of information about the A8 posters here. Point proven.

I don't know* what he coded-only, produced-only or designed-only, but he's an all-rounder alright. *I know most, but sometimes attention's going (must visit 4chan to get those glasses)

Just check out this thread (way back)

You really haven't been paying attention have you.. Here, you can borrow my glasses Wow, you gotta wear THOSE? Nah you keep 'em, my eyesight is perfect. As for paying attention.....just to remind you: I don't see any C64 game coders here, wannabe coders yes, but coders no.

I don't see any C64 game coders here, wannabe coders yes, but coders no. As for A8 coders, Steve (Jetboot Jack) is highly here above all others, having published on A8, PS, CD32 Dreamcast and many other platforms.

Not much of a killer app given Atari waited until '82 to stick it on the VCS and 5200.. I guess they'd run out of other better options by then to raise some cash And as for first first person games, go look up Spasim from 1974.. That'll be your first first person game I reckon, and it's a shooter as well as networked multiplayer as well Ah you misunderstood, a killer app is a piece of software which sells hardware, on Apple 2 it was Visicalc, on 2600 it was Space Invaders, PC had Lotus 123, and the software which sold 800s was Star Raiders. Irrelevant on other platforms. As for Spasim, great, even I who knows all, learnt something new, thanks. Looking on Wiki it says Maze War was also 1974.

Space War was not 'first person', but Star Raiders (1979 cartridge A8) certainly was, and it was the first 'killer app' were gaming was concerned. But the first 'first person' was some tunnel game on Pet in 1977

Price is important factor... In any products success... I just somehow doubt that if A8s were cheaper they would sell well as C64... My C64 is 22 years old and it is still working... I have 10.000+ games for it... And I love its looks! Sometimes I try to put bread in it... but that is just early in the morning... Price is most important, otherwise Apple 2, the 8-bit computer with most software, would have been the top selling computer way back (in USA). I once found this article here on AA, it's from some US magazine from the mid-80s about the Apple ][ and its importance/impact in schools/homes etc. Also a video was mentioned here once, 'Thriumphing Nerds' or such, were the story was told that Apple 2 created an industry/companies were formed and so forth. A bit like Sinclair in UK:

Yes that's the trouble with C64 software in UK. C64 seemed to live mainly on budget softs, and when a full price piece of software was re-relased on budget, it sold even better than the full price title. Just check out the soft charts in UK on C64 from that time, full of budget titles. But I blame the Spectrum for this, Spectrum was leading the market where sales were concerend, eg budget titles, and software houses had to do the same on C64. They had no choice.

I guess its connected to year of release... by the time 16bits hit its peak, those games were old news... But it also shows the superiority of the A8, for it's lifespan.... Having something really superior available. While the C64 only was a budget machine with budget software, easily outdone by other machines of the same time. That is so true.