Wolfram

I'm not sure I'm rading your broken English correctly, but I suspect you are just trying (and failing) at simple trolling... no, there have been numerous examples of c64 being called cheap thus bad. Also I'm not sure if you speak any language other than your native (I guess) english as good as I speak english. but anyway its really simple: you are just out of arguments. the troll's guide rule #3 says: when you're out of arguments, start being a grammarnazi.

Well, 'cheap' follows Jack wherever he goes. you mean success. anywhow, jack has nothing to do with the 8 bit line, you still sport that slogan on a 8bit screen. probably bcoz you're proud to be cheap. the thing you love to bully c64 with

@atariski: At 4:36 there are 1024 one scanline high "sprites" on C64. Other than that this demo is pretty much outdated (from 1998). How did you calculate 1024? How many per line is the key point since you need some horizontal replication to go beyond the 2000 sprites. I didn't calculate it. I read the note on side 2 of the demo and I looked at the routine which changes 4 sprite X-positions per scanline. 256 rasterlines * 4 = 1024. So it doesn't run on NTSC machines? sure not. ntsc and pal c64's have different nr of cycles / line. this one is timed for pal machines.

I just save this one here, so next time I can show it to the one who says cheap=bad.

the tolerance level of the data I/O depends on the loader you write. its all up to you. you change all the voltage leveles by hand in software. thats why very accurate emulation is required. whats so incompatible about LPT ports? well in the beginning (~1996) you could straight connect them to 1541 drives. nowadays you need diodes condensators and whatnot to make it work because of the LPT HW changes.

you should realise, that such statements tells a millions words about you, but nothing about the c64 guys. sorry, I dont really get whats your problem. I have said it uses 16 shades made out of 4 colors&dithering, which in fact it does. nothing else of anything what you imply above. can you accept basic facts? okay. show it in the code or show it in the screenshots: which pixels are repeated. you'd better just act like you havent ever stated this one. indeed. it is the same as your a8 example. no curved faces, no real light source. now what is your problem with that? dont change the subject. you have said this is something a c64 cant even get come close to. the fact is it can. it shows a more detailed tunel, and much bigger objects. one of them has infact plasma instead of gouraud on its sides.

thats a really good one

The A8 was declared dead in 1986 by Atari itself. After eastern europe opened the gates, Atari decided to start manufacturing the A8 again to take part on that market. yeah A8 got the c64 again there: died earliear than the c64 !

- the picture uses 16 dithered shades of 4 colors - background doesnt reuses anything, its a tunel on its own, the tunel is bended, depth shaded, etc, impossible to reuse chars. you can all see that before the objects enters ( )- the rotating 3d object is gouraud (just like the atari one) & not flat shaded, visible even on the picture you have posted, I am hugely amazed you can come here with a straight face and deny such an obvious fact. Nonetheless it displays a bended curved depth shaded tunel, with fullscreen gouraud shaded objects, something you said the c64 cant even come close to. Time to redefine "cant even come close to" to win this argument. As I know you, you will start with that straight away.

Cheater. You previously compared IDE64 to my joystick interface. If that's a separate piece of hardware (and not a C64 port only interface) then you are soar loser. can you cite where do I compare IDE64 to your joystick interface? and I am a loser because IDE64 is a separate HW ?! calm down a little.

That requires another piece of hardware it looks like to function. as I said only use such stuff if you're ok with the fact that it not supports custom loaders = nothing will work except onefilers and lame programs using the default loader. this is the thing: http://www.1541ultimate.net/content/index.php

I fully agree, and who suggested that? indeed, tell the atari guy who did that, to stop with it. this whole issue is on one side a pro on the other side a con for both machines. for all c64 loaders to work you have to emulate the 1541 timed cycle exactly. you cant just emulate a protocol, as each c64 fastloader uses different wires, different timings, different protocols. pro for the c64 because: intelligent drive design, you can speed it over atari loading speeds con: not so good for the emulation era. but when it really mattered in the heydays it was a pro. sure. even the unfinished/abandoned during development games has their own site, recovering every piece if information whats possible. many of them have layable demos: http://gtw64.retro-net.de/ the nr of such games is comparable to the ones released for a8. can. but nobody cares. cartridges were not a format being taken seriously for the c64. the best games are multiload and cant make it into carts without serious hacking, so why bother. those were made compatible with IDE64 already if you need instant loading times.

you dont want such stuff for the c64. it wont run anything with a custom loader. I dont know if you already know this so I just exlain anyway: all c64 fastloaders, and 99% of games and ALL demos load using custom loaders. this means uploading code to the 1541 drive's ram. the 1541 has to be emulated so such loaders will wirk. c64 to pc solutions only emulate the default protocol, and not the full 1541 -> c64tpc and similar doesnt runs shit except onefilers. if you want a system which runs almost anything get an 1541 ultimate: http://www.1541ultimate.net/content/index.php

Yeps a real failure on the main market. With 18 million sold units... And with C128 selling another 4 million. May I mention that the entire A8 line sold just about 4 million too? Vic 20 a mostly non starter, Not C64, what can I say, the public often is not too bright. Sorry I don't know commonsore terminology. To me a vic means vic20. Your original statement was that the VIC was an utter market failure in the US. Sorry, but you got that wrong. VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was absolutely not a technical breakthrough, but more people could afford it than Ataris. If I remember right from the C= Book "on the Edge" VIC20 was originally a few weeks own hobby project of Bob Yannes ( SID designer). He just wanted to build a computer around the already existing but unused VIC-I gfx chip for fun. But when he showed it to one of his bosses, the machine got eventually made it to be seen by Jack Tramiel who instantly ordered it to be manufactured Sorry, you are wrong, it never got market penetration and most who bought it found they could not do anything much with it and there was little to no software and what little there was was very hard to find as nobody carried it. With Atari you could go lots of places like Sears,Service Merchandise, Burdines,Lazarus and most major retailers. Also I still hate SID sounds, really grates on my nerves. Sorry, you are wrong. The first computer to ever sell 1 million units had market penetration, and is/was a market success. Total flop and wholly unsupported at the consumer level unlike Atari. I know a few people back in the day that bought one as it was cheap. They however did nothing with it and could not find software for it. Yeah.. that a real success VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was a huge market success. Say it all you like. Still wrong. Here in the US. (main computer market) it was a flop. Success generally means that people dev for it and it's available easily to the public. It was not. Kind like the Virtual Boy, sold a bunch, no software, flop. Actually I think Virtual boy did better Most of those machine sold here were never used. It was a novelty based on price.It was the cheapest machine around and people bought it. People wanted to be part of the emerging "computer age". Not understanding anything about machines they chose the cheapest one. Besides the machine sucked. Give me an Atari 400/800 anyday.Heck at that time a 2600 was a much better choice. Consumers at the time were buying machine for games mostly. Commodore had no great license games and really nothing to offer even if you could find software for it. It's only thing was that it was cheap. Made a great doorstop,closet liner, landfill filler, take your pick. We had neighbors who had one setup on the coffee table. They showed it off. When asked what it did they turned it on and we all looked at it. I asked what they could do with it and the answer was that they had no idea. They never did. You are wrong. The original claim was that it was a market huge market success. the first computer ever selling over 1 million unit is a huge market success. Market success is to be measured in sales numbers. Keep trying. Still wrong. Again market success or failure is obvious when nearly nobody writes software for your system. As in programmers are trying to make money. As is obvious VIC20 failed.Not mainstream. Atari,Apple, Heck Tandy and TI(not a bad system) had more available and Atari and Apple had 1st tier titles as well. Vic failed. I can't even believe we are having this conversation about such a joke of a system. Were you even alive at the time? Stop redefining the meaning of market success. VIC20 was a HUGE market success. whatever you say. Its not like I dont agree with most of you're seeing. But its all offtopic, changing subject. One thing you can never take away from the VIC20: first ever computer to ever sell 1 million units. and that means a huge market success. edit: interesting note from spiceware. VIC20 sold 2.5 millon. more than half of ALL a8 models put together. It's a fact. You just don't like hearing it. They sold a million pos doorstops with no 1st tier software and no availability of software. You'll just have to deal with it. Maybe Lemon64 would fit your few. I imagine there are many there with the same lame excuse. I lived during that period. Did you? wow man, face it: already even 2 of the atari guys have corrected you, one of them even said it had software, pheripherals, etc etc etc. VIC20 was a huge market success. you just cant face the reality. You still don't seem to get it, face reality son, you keep avoiding the obvious, peripherals that noboday could find or use and home grow software are far from success. Floppity flop flop/ Face it, You also avoided my question. Were you even alive back then? How would you know how things were without actually being there? Just a foolish fanboy. Why any love for that flop box is beyond me. VIC20 had both Commodore and third party peripherals, software was even made by atari for it, game carts alone counts 300. sold ALONE more than half of ALL a8 models together. VIC20 was a huge market succes, first computer to ever sell a million, its sales numbers dwarfes any 8bit atari computer model's. we can deeper and deeper in the numbers, and thing is it goes like this: as we go on you have to step back always from more and more of your claims. it had pheripherals, it had games, it had userbase. it had everything. You cant accept the bare facts. wow how stupid can this get. were you alive in the 1st world war? how do you know what happened then? stop trolling sir. play it fair. accept the facts. The stupidity is on your part son. I guess your answer(finally) to being around at the time is no. So you don't have the same reference of the market the people who were do. You just have some wiki crap and a warped pro commodore bias. The trolling is on your part as I've been here awhile and not seen you. Judging from what I am seeing so far you will probably be gone to troll elsewhere with your incorrect info soon. Floppity flop flop, Vic failed. Nobody back in the day took it seriously here in the states especially with only 5k ram and 1 joystick port. It was Apple or Atari. Those were the main systems. Your insistence is funny though. :) ah I see you give it up now. you are now really into the trolling. no arguments. only personals. even the atari fans are prooving and provving you wrong. lets take the facts again: let's just repeat: VIC20 sales dwarfes any other atari 8 bit model's. take a wild guess what machines where the main systems back then. VIC20 had both Commodore and third party peripherals, software was even made by atari for it, game carts alone counts 300. sold ALONE more than half of ALL a8 models together. VIC20 was a huge market succes, with being the first computer to ever sell a million. it had pheripherals, it had games, it had userbase. it had everything.

how about accepting facts... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Commodore_VIC-20_games there are many arcade games amongst the hundreds.

Yeps a real failure on the main market. With 18 million sold units... And with C128 selling another 4 million. May I mention that the entire A8 line sold just about 4 million too? Vic 20 a mostly non starter, Not C64, what can I say, the public often is not too bright. Sorry I don't know commonsore terminology. To me a vic means vic20. Your original statement was that the VIC was an utter market failure in the US. Sorry, but you got that wrong. VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was absolutely not a technical breakthrough, but more people could afford it than Ataris. If I remember right from the C= Book "on the Edge" VIC20 was originally a few weeks own hobby project of Bob Yannes ( SID designer). He just wanted to build a computer around the already existing but unused VIC-I gfx chip for fun. But when he showed it to one of his bosses, the machine got eventually made it to be seen by Jack Tramiel who instantly ordered it to be manufactured Sorry, you are wrong, it never got market penetration and most who bought it found they could not do anything much with it and there was little to no software and what little there was was very hard to find as nobody carried it. With Atari you could go lots of places like Sears,Service Merchandise, Burdines,Lazarus and most major retailers. Also I still hate SID sounds, really grates on my nerves. Sorry, you are wrong. The first computer to ever sell 1 million units had market penetration, and is/was a market success. Total flop and wholly unsupported at the consumer level unlike Atari. I know a few people back in the day that bought one as it was cheap. They however did nothing with it and could not find software for it. Yeah.. that a real success VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was a huge market success. Say it all you like. Still wrong. Here in the US. (main computer market) it was a flop. Success generally means that people dev for it and it's available easily to the public. It was not. Kind like the Virtual Boy, sold a bunch, no software, flop. Actually I think Virtual boy did better Most of those machine sold here were never used. It was a novelty based on price.It was the cheapest machine around and people bought it. People wanted to be part of the emerging "computer age". Not understanding anything about machines they chose the cheapest one. Besides the machine sucked. Give me an Atari 400/800 anyday.Heck at that time a 2600 was a much better choice. Consumers at the time were buying machine for games mostly. Commodore had no great license games and really nothing to offer even if you could find software for it. It's only thing was that it was cheap. Made a great doorstop,closet liner, landfill filler, take your pick. We had neighbors who had one setup on the coffee table. They showed it off. When asked what it did they turned it on and we all looked at it. I asked what they could do with it and the answer was that they had no idea. They never did. You are wrong. The original claim was that it was a market huge market success. the first computer ever selling over 1 million unit is a huge market success. Market success is to be measured in sales numbers. Keep trying. Still wrong. Again market success or failure is obvious when nearly nobody writes software for your system. As in programmers are trying to make money. As is obvious VIC20 failed.Not mainstream. Atari,Apple, Heck Tandy and TI(not a bad system) had more available and Atari and Apple had 1st tier titles as well. Vic failed. I can't even believe we are having this conversation about such a joke of a system. Were you even alive at the time? Stop redefining the meaning of market success. VIC20 was a HUGE market success. whatever you say. Its not like I dont agree with most of you're seeing. But its all offtopic, changing subject. One thing you can never take away from the VIC20: first ever computer to ever sell 1 million units. and that means a huge market success. edit: interesting note from spiceware. VIC20 sold 2.5 millon. more than half of ALL a8 models put together. It's a fact. You just don't like hearing it. They sold a million pos doorstops with no 1st tier software and no availability of software. You'll just have to deal with it. Maybe Lemon64 would fit your few. I imagine there are many there with the same lame excuse. I lived during that period. Did you? wow man, face it: already even 2 of the atari guys have corrected you, one of them even said it had software, pheripherals, etc etc etc. VIC20 was a huge market success. you just cant face the reality. You still don't seem to get it, face reality son, you keep avoiding the obvious, peripherals that noboday could find or use and home grow software are far from success. Floppity flop flop/ Face it, You also avoided my question. Were you even alive back then? How would you know how things were without actually being there? Just a foolish fanboy. Why any love for that flop box is beyond me. VIC20 had both Commodore and third party peripherals, software was even made by atari for it, game carts alone counts 300. sold ALONE more than half of ALL a8 models together. VIC20 was a huge market succes, first computer to ever sell a million, its sales numbers dwarfes any 8bit atari computer model's. we can deeper and deeper in the numbers, and thing is it goes like this: as we go on you have to step back always from more and more of your claims. it had pheripherals, it had games, it had userbase. it had everything. You cant accept the bare facts. wow how stupid can this get. were you alive in the 1st world war? how do you know what happened then? stop trolling sir. play it fair. accept the facts.

are you sure? here you can see bigger gouraud shaded objects, with a more complex tunnel.... (its in the same resolution as the a8 one, the video is shitty doesnt shows that)

wow, you have no idea what you are making fun of. there are quite a few commercial hits which are based on the 3 voice c64 sound. one case is even on court as timbaland stole a whole SID music and put it in the background in one of his hits songs (he also stole another one and sold it as a ringtone). there's a dutch composer who used a famous c64 composer's drum sound in his hit song, and after things were straightened he had to pay royalties for using it (!). So here's your hit of that shit: c64 music is played today by orchestras: and c64 music fan bands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LK-52QzEDA and classic c64 game music idols does play/mix sid music on parties: jeroen tel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UccfIsAj0uA reyn ouwehand the one man band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3aQAafH2U c64 music has its OWN remix scene: http://remix.kwed.org/ http://www.remix64.com/ c64 music has its internet radio podcast sites: http://www.slayradio.org/home.php SID used as a music device on its own: (this one is a MUST to watch and hear, pure SID chip sound of 8 SID chips!!! SID here sounds better than in your worst nightmares ) the SID chip alone of the c64 has given birth to various fan communities, its HUGE.

25 year casio keyboards can do this really? also pokey's are not built into various commercial boxes which are used to make music. no wonder why SID is used for that and Pokey is not. you are just playing it like emkay. A8 cant do turrican? no problem. lets compare c64 turrican to amiga version, now we can say it sucks. you do the same trolling.

Yeps a real failure on the main market. With 18 million sold units... And with C128 selling another 4 million. May I mention that the entire A8 line sold just about 4 million too? Vic 20 a mostly non starter, Not C64, what can I say, the public often is not too bright. Sorry I don't know commonsore terminology. To me a vic means vic20. Your original statement was that the VIC was an utter market failure in the US. Sorry, but you got that wrong. VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was absolutely not a technical breakthrough, but more people could afford it than Ataris. If I remember right from the C= Book "on the Edge" VIC20 was originally a few weeks own hobby project of Bob Yannes ( SID designer). He just wanted to build a computer around the already existing but unused VIC-I gfx chip for fun. But when he showed it to one of his bosses, the machine got eventually made it to be seen by Jack Tramiel who instantly ordered it to be manufactured Sorry, you are wrong, it never got market penetration and most who bought it found they could not do anything much with it and there was little to no software and what little there was was very hard to find as nobody carried it. With Atari you could go lots of places like Sears,Service Merchandise, Burdines,Lazarus and most major retailers. Also I still hate SID sounds, really grates on my nerves. Sorry, you are wrong. The first computer to ever sell 1 million units had market penetration, and is/was a market success. Total flop and wholly unsupported at the consumer level unlike Atari. I know a few people back in the day that bought one as it was cheap. They however did nothing with it and could not find software for it. Yeah.. that a real success VIC20 was the first computer to ever sell 1 million units. It was a huge market success. Say it all you like. Still wrong. Here in the US. (main computer market) it was a flop. Success generally means that people dev for it and it's available easily to the public. It was not. Kind like the Virtual Boy, sold a bunch, no software, flop. Actually I think Virtual boy did better Most of those machine sold here were never used. It was a novelty based on price.It was the cheapest machine around and people bought it. People wanted to be part of the emerging "computer age". Not understanding anything about machines they chose the cheapest one. Besides the machine sucked. Give me an Atari 400/800 anyday.Heck at that time a 2600 was a much better choice. Consumers at the time were buying machine for games mostly. Commodore had no great license games and really nothing to offer even if you could find software for it. It's only thing was that it was cheap. Made a great doorstop,closet liner, landfill filler, take your pick. We had neighbors who had one setup on the coffee table. They showed it off. When asked what it did they turned it on and we all looked at it. I asked what they could do with it and the answer was that they had no idea. They never did. You are wrong. The original claim was that it was a market huge market success. the first computer ever selling over 1 million unit is a huge market success. Market success is to be measured in sales numbers. Keep trying. Still wrong. Again market success or failure is obvious when nearly nobody writes software for your system. As in programmers are trying to make money. As is obvious VIC20 failed.Not mainstream. Atari,Apple, Heck Tandy and TI(not a bad system) had more available and Atari and Apple had 1st tier titles as well. Vic failed. I can't even believe we are having this conversation about such a joke of a system. Were you even alive at the time? Stop redefining the meaning of market success. VIC20 was a HUGE market success. whatever you say. Its not like I dont agree with most of you're seeing. But its all offtopic, changing subject. One thing you can never take away from the VIC20: first ever computer to ever sell 1 million units. and that means a huge market success. edit: interesting note from spiceware. VIC20 sold 2.5 millon. more than half of ALL a8 models put together. It's a fact. You just don't like hearing it. They sold a million pos doorstops with no 1st tier software and no availability of software. You'll just have to deal with it. Maybe Lemon64 would fit your few. I imagine there are many there with the same lame excuse. I lived during that period. Did you? wow man, face it: already even 2 of the atari guys have corrected you, one of them even said it had software, pheripherals, etc etc etc. VIC20 was a huge market success. you just cant face the reality.

assuming 256 byte wide scanlines it should be faster than that imho.

that's a bit overcomplicated doesnt looks more simple than plotting something on the c64. plotting to c64 bitmap, width restricted to 32 "bytes": ... Width in above equation is 0..511 not 0..255 (32 bytes). If you know the vertical quadrant you are plotting in, the ANDs aren't needed. MUL by 256 obviosly isn't needed and X/8 is a look-up. so can you provide the code? so we can see how much a8 benefits from the better bitmap arrangement.

I've just added ths to my collection: Great machine. Much prefer it to atar.

Perhaps, you can get them to write "Thanks to Atari 800" on the certificate. I also used to participate in science fairs when I was in high school and there was always a whole bunch of Apple projects, some C64 and some Atari 8-bit and some PCs. All the first place winners were always from Atari 8-bit or PCs and second were C64 or PCs and never saw anyone with with an Apple. I saw once someone control a walking robot from an Atari 800XL w/256K memory expansion. wow, and what does that proove? I didnt even know 8bit atari computer's exists into the 2000's. I had an amiga, the only thing I knew about atari that its some kind of crap 16bit machine. It's an observation of mine that Atari 8-bits won (me and others) science fairs. Presentations were more colorful for one thing with nice scrolling title screens. I never stated it was in 2000s; it was actually in 1980s. I also used amigas in science fairs in late 1980s and early 1990s. Later the projects were incorporated into results you see here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=320359212377 I can state a true observation without getting emotionally biased toward one machine unlike you. I have also just stated a true observetion, without getting emotionally biased, and a bonus: without personal attacks.

Perhaps, you can get them to write "Thanks to Atari 800" on the certificate. I also used to participate in science fairs when I was in high school and there was always a whole bunch of Apple projects, some C64 and some Atari 8-bit and some PCs. All the first place winners were always from Atari 8-bit or PCs and second were C64 or PCs and never saw anyone with with an Apple. I saw once someone control a walking robot from an Atari 800XL w/256K memory expansion. wow, and what does that proove? I didnt even know 8bit atari computer's exists into the 2000's. I had an amiga, the only thing I knew about atari that its some kind of crap 16bit machine.