kool kitty89

Ahem: Now note Heavy nova is one of those games that's really not that bad (not great, but passable) for those who like the genre, but absoulutely requires instructions/tutorial to be playable. (rather like ET or Star Voyager -NES not 2600) In his case it's a loose cart and he didn't look up the intreuctions online (or they weren't available at the time). The biggerst part is that you tap a/b intermintently to recharge health (and get out of being disabled from low health), rather like punch out. I think night driver is OK, it depends on your prefrences, if you know a freind who's got it I'd suggest trying it out first. (inless you can get it really cheap -shipping would be the main factor if buying online) If you can't find it locally, I'd just wait and get it with a lot of reasonably priced atari games. (combined shipping is much more reasonable)

In the 80s there were 2600 games larger than 4K, thanks to bank switching. Given ROM prices in 1977, 4K was just a practical size. The NES came out in 1983 and had a 32K limit (8 times bigger), even though ROM prices were actually closer to 1/16th the cost by then. Of course bank switching was used on the NES too. Bankswitching requires additional hardware on the cartridge which increases cost, right? (in addition to the ROM costs) BTW, what does the 12-pin ribbon cable running from the cartridge slot/switch board to the motherboard have to do with things? (I'll have to open my system up again, but I think that's the only connection from the cartridge to the main/motherboard, the other 12 pins could only be going to the switchboard, assuming they're all used) Also, I seem to remember refrenced on the NES cartridges mentionin that it supported more than 32 kB of game ROM. (somthing like 48 kB I think, and I'm not confusing it with the 7800) But maybe this was referring to the overall cartridge address space, not just game ROM. (ROM/RAM for video and main RAM expansion, plus SRAM battery save mechanisms) Edit: found this: http://nocash.emubase.de/everynes.htm The 49,128 bytes figure is including 8 kB reserved for SRAM and 8,164 bytes for "Cartridge Expansion Area" (?). The PPU addressing isn't included with this. I find Pitfall 2 rather impressive personally (not sure how much it actually pushes the hardware, but the multicolor sprites, animated water and continuous letalone dynamic soundtrack), though Solaris is definitely impressive. (I don't have either yet though) Didn't Atari's semi-monopoly on ROM ICs give them some control over 3rd parties?

Not sure what you mean, there were some Jr.'s released with the single chip design. Interesting, I'd gotten that impression from this page: http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/cons...tari2600jr.html Checking again, all it really said was this: Which doesn't mention that "JAN" was abandoned, but it seems to imply that it wasn't used. I meant that it was possible to replicate the custom portions (specifically TIA) with off the shelf parts, but it seems I was in error, Coleco had their own chip specifically made for the clone systems, according to the interview of Curt Vendel and Steve Golson on the 7800, VTI had made the TIA clone for Coleco (and I'd immagine Mattel as well). (VTI was GCC's chip vendor and it was rather convienent for GCC as this meant that the already had a TIA compatible chip available from the same vendor as would be producing MARIA -at least according to Golson's statements in the interview)

It's one of those games that's impossible without the manual (assuming it was well made) or a tutorial. On top of that there are some rather unpolished areas and glitches that could probably have been improved with a little time. The biggest problem is that Warner/Atari paid a load for the licence and overproduced the cartridge causing further monetary loss. (kind of like Pac Man, at least for the latter part) "ET Phone Home!" for the Atari 8-bit computer line was of significantly higher quality, and the gameplay itsslf is a bit better as well (similar in that it's a collection/adventure game with the same goal, but you play as Elliot rather than ET for one thing, and it's generally a more polished game) What's rather odd is that this game seems to have been released in 1983 as well, so they couldn't have had much more time to develop it than the 2600 version. Still, see for yourself: Here's a vintage tutorial for the 2600 game: and gameplay from Phone Home:

Had they added a screen windo size and/or high/low detail setting option they could have allowed people to compensate for the choppiness if they were willing to drop resolution. (the 3DO version had a code for -super choppy- fullscreen mode for instance, and of course the PC version had high+low detal and a wide range of screen size settings) THe music change is certainly debatable, some find the ambient/atmospheric sountrack worse than no music at all. (and a fair portion of the 32x's music is actually tolerable, though nowhere near as good as it could have been -which should have been rather like the soundblaster version, possibly with some differences with the Genesis using the PSG in addition to FM synth, and using the YM2612 DAC for some nice drum/symbal/percussion sounds would have been nice as well) Anyway I cant speak from personal experience on the Saturn version and I've only played the 32x version in Fusion (though it is a bit choppy and Fusion is usually pretty accurate with these kinds of things). I don't care for the textures in most of the console Doom ports though (the majority of which are derived in some way from the Jaguar port). The SNES version is better in some ways (especially considdering the limitations of the GSU 2 and 2 MB of game ROM), but that doesn't make up for its faults. (actually, had it not been for the stupid "unique" difficulty system I'd kind of like it in spite of the low resolution, lack of floor/ceiling textures and low framerate, but that stupid system kills it; had they had normal difficulty and added some kind of save system -even password- that would have made it far better IMO, these are not technical limitations, unlike most other issues, hence why I'm most critical of them)

Hold in late '83? Sorry for bring this up again, but I completely missed this part of your response. What I was refering to this interview: This interview with GCC 20 years later was really cool. Curt Vendel did it and it's a great listen on how the 7800 was created and the history of GCC. http://www.applefritter.com/mp3/vcf2004/atari.mp3 (starting at 36:30)

Interesting, (was it even a modification the same port, or a different one entirely -different programmers?) that figures though, the Saturn did get more attention in Japan. Well as I posted eariler, there's this direct comparison with the 32x version: http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id...20vs.%20Saturn)

Supposedly Warner's original plan was for the "10-bit" 3200 "System X" to be the successor to the 2600 and be backward compatible with the 2600 out of the box, this supposedly got scrapped due to programming difficulties so the 5200 was the quick fix to meet the mounting competition. (the 3200 had simpler contrellers as well, not sure if they were analog, but they look like the 5200's but with only 2 buttons) I think the A8-bit hadware had originally been intended as the direct successor for the 2600, but of course was reworked to compete in the home computer market. (can't remember if this is one of the things Bushnell and Warner disagreed on) Still, none of these reasons prevented the 5200 from being more like the 7800 (or 3200) in certain aspects, simple controllers (either analog or digital as long as they work -plus yyou could use standard 2600 joysticks as well as the inerface is the same), use a similar cartridge design as the 7800, a 2600 compatible cartridge slot, and compatible controler ports. (you could go with either 2 or 4, 2 would probably be advantageous from a cost standpoint) Still have it derived from the A8-bit hardware (maybe they could get away with 8 kB instead of 16 as well), but have the larger ROM address space of the 5200 (or even step it up to the 7800's 48kB if possible) hen make the case and main board as compact and consolidated as possible, and of course you'd need to include the 2600's TIA and RIOT for backwards compatibility. (TIA could still be useful to compliment POKEY for sound as well) They should also have made the board as consolidated as possible and the case/overall unit as compact as possible, while still making it stylish/attractive. (both for cost savings in manufacturing, packaging, and shipping, as well as apeal to customers) Perhaps use a distinctive cartridge design to distinguish them from the 2600's (rather than being nearly identical as with the 7800),perhaps something sleeker (wedge?) to match the style, perhaps slightly wider as well so they won't fit into the 2600 slot at all. Had they completed the 2600 on a chip ("JAN") for the 2600 Jr. project, a similar ASIC could be used in later revisions of the new console as well (either with the 6507 portion removed or modified to include the 6502C in place of the 6507) Are you talking about the 5200 under Warner or the 7800 under Tramiel? In the case with Sears I don't think it was just special branding, the hardware still being manufactured by Atari. In the 2600's spcific case they wouldn't have even been able to do this, at least not after competitors realized they could recreate the hardware using off the shelf parts. (Mattel/Coleco's Expansion modules, and COleco's Gemini clone) The 5200 and 7800 would be different issues.

The 7800 still made its full launch more than a year ahead of the PC Engine, only a couple months after the NES's full launch (not the late '85 test market), and roughly simultaneously with the Master System's US release. Even at a relatively late date it could have competed had it had sufficient support (especially from a software standpoint) and marketing, but it had neither. (and considdering this it sold rather well, but Curt's figures, probably better than the Master System in the US -not sure on the SMS figures though) Still it was late and that certainly put it at a disadvantage (mainly with a lack of developers signed on and lack of 1st party developments), had it had a similarly modest a year or so earlier things could have been significantly different, it may have had enought time to build up in interest prior to the NES rising in dominance, looking at the current situation the 7800 was doing relatively well within a year of launch and that's with Tramie's advertizing and limited library of games. (had he been interested, it still could have taken a while to get things set after taking over, of course this wasn't the case) With the proposed Warner keeping Atari's consumer gmaes devision and licencing the name to Tramiel, there probably still would have been a bit of a delay, or at least some alterations to prior plans on launching the 7800. Assuming they still had a significant amount of the debt after the deal with Tramiel, Warner would have to be frugal with marketing as well as having to deal with unfreindly retailers. (again, mail-order is a good alternate strategy). They'd also have to downsize things significantly to cut costs back. (stop bleeding money) There's plenty of other variables in such a scenario though, would Warner/Atari still focus on games as they had been and drop the computer portions entirely? (maybe just continue to support the existing 8-bit line) Should they use a previous computer project as the basis of a future game console (Sierra perhaps?) or should they offer to sell this off to Tramiel if he was interested in any of the projects. (if it was as compeditive as sometimes asserted and practical cost-wise, the Sierra design could have been a far more competitive choice than the ST, and had been fully prototyped before being shelved, while the ST was still being designed) If Tramiel did take some of the aformentioned comupter projects (which should further alliviate Atari/Warner's debt), should they continue with the 7800 as the basis for their next console (or portions like MARIA), and continue with backwards compatibility on the next console? (even in the form of an adaptor accessory like the Genesis had for the Master System)

What I meant was perhaps they wouldn't have made the mistake with the C64GS, either never come out with it at all, or made something more like the XGES. (sorry if I rambled a bit in my previous post) The CD32 was a bit of a different issue as Commodore was attempting to switch to game consoles with their computer market dying. (kind of like with the Jaguar, but more like if Atari had turned the Falcon into a game console) By that time both Atari and Commodore had been basicly pushed out of the computer market. Who knows how things would have gone for both companies if Tramiel had stayed at Commodore, perhaps Commodore would have done better, Atari is rather open ended depending on the scenario you want to set-up, but they certainly could have ended up worse than they did with Tramiel, but possibly better -at least as far as games- with the right circumstances; all huge hypotheticals of course, but less wild than some of the assumptions in the initial topic post of this thread) Even so (and Sega was even weaker than Atari in the US arround this time), the 2600 had a massive user base compared to the other 2, and the 2600 Jr. continued to increase this for the budget market as well. If a significant portion of previous Atair users were to adopt the 7800 over the competition, that's still a good margin, particularly a bit later when the 7800 could shift into the budget market in place of the 2600 Jr. an some newer 2600 adopters could be interested in that as well. (the 7800 didn't do nearly that well though, lack of proper advertizing, some confusing advertizing and labeling "for 2600 and 7800" kinds of things, and lack of developers/software really hurt it) An interesting consideration, but I think Warner wanted out at this point and such a deal would (practically speaking) mean Warner would still be keeping some of the debt of the consumer devision. (if you're going to take on all that debt you're going to want your money's worth) I do suppose there are some scenarios that this may have been possible in, but that would require Warner to still be interestid in keeping parts of the consumer devision. (I don't know the specifics on this) Perhaps some deal where Tramiel gets all the computer hardware devision stuff (8-bit line, other projects, staff, etc) and Warner keeps the videogame portion, but still, it seems like Tramiel was mainly interested in having the Atari brand name to use (not even particularly interested in Atari's computer projects, otherwise he may have taken more interest in things like Sierra before firing the developers) But it really seems like Warner just wanted out, and would have preferred the hisorical deal than something like Tramiel taking on a significant portion of the debt just for branding. (particularly as I doubt it would have been anthing like 1/2 of Atari's debt just for branding, maybe for the entire computer hardware sections; honestly there seems to have been a number of interesting projects that were in line with what Jack wanted to do, perhaps if he'd just taken the computer portions he'd have scrutinized things more closely before scrapping them or firing the designers) Ten again, leaving Warner with parts of the consumer devision could possibly create unwanted competition for Tramiel, even if he took all the computer stuff and there was some kind of agreement that Warner-Atari wasn't to sell home computer hardware (software would be a different issue), Atari's game consoles could cut into the gaming portions of the computer market. Then again it may have been more advantageous to have this competition as well, as Warner-Atari's game market would cut in on Commodore's (with gaming being a rather significant portion of the C64's interest), especially if Tramiel didn't particularly care about the ST being a highly competitive gaming machine. (which is pretty feasible) OTOH, if there was an agreement that Warner-Atari wouldn't sell home computers, then the computer/keyboard add-on for the 7800 would probably have to be scrapped, or licenced by (Tramiel's) Atair Corp. which could get messy.

It's all silly, take things with a grain of salt (the Checkered Flag review is pretty good at some points, and the main complaint is the usualy one... some other stuff is pretty good too like the Sewer Shark review, he bashes Cruisin USA as well) By far his flash toons are best: http://www.ebolaworld.com/ http://ebolaworld.newgrounds.com/flash/ (as for game stuff, there's a cool Night Trap parody -playable game; and the "Taco Man the Game Master" toons are pretty good) Lots of other satire as well. (horror, politics, religion, and some original stuff as well, though "cat and fish" is rather bland IMO) As to Atari Karts, definitely superior (technically) to Super Mario Kart, but in that sense so was BC Racers (with the exception of lower color count it had better audio and scaling/rotation effects on Sega CD than Mario Kart, but the gameplay is nowhere near the same) I think Atari Karts might lack a litte polish in some areas though (haven't played it so don't know about controls, but the levvels at least look nice), but one complaint I've read is the lack of effects in some areas. (particularly splashing through watter, can't remember if dust/smoke or similar is lacking as well)

Perhaps, but had it not been for the failure of those things may not have gone the same way with the creation of the C64 perhaps. Also, there are texamples of when game consoles are the wrong option; had Tramiel stayed at Commodore this mistake may not have ever existed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64_Games_System (or perhaps it would have been earlier -enough to still be competitive, and more like the XEGS concept) The console market was shakey at the time so it's at least understandeable to be hesitant, the active work on resurrecting the 2600 Jr. project, also note they released the 2600 Jr. to significant success in fall of 1985 (before Nintendo had "revived" the market, or even before their test market of the NES), this was certainly a factor in finally releasing the 7800. (I think there had also been ongoing negotiations on the terms/conditions of the 7800 contract with GCC) I think a deravitive of the ST as a game console is an interesting idea, though it wouldn't be able to compete technically with the Genesis or SNES in some respects, had it been released early enough it would have had a good head start, or if the suggested 1989 date was taken, the STe is another option. (the blitter making it significantly more compeditive, the added sound hardware is good too, though in either case an additional FM synthesis chip could improve things at reasonalbe cost -especially a lower end one) It probably would have been good to release an ST derivative in place of the XEGS (which was aging rather badly and in more or less direct competition with the 7800). With the ST you'd have a next-gen system, so not a direct compditor with the 7800, and had it beein released in a similar manner as the XEGS in '87 it would have a good head start over the competition and the additional possibility of expansion into a full ST computer. (using the STe would probably make it last longer though, maybe you could push for the blitter and get it out by 1988, though '89 really isnt bad, but you're in direct competition with the TG-16 and Genesis; of course there's the Lynx to suppliment things as well up until the Jaguar) If we're talking about a Tramiel owned atari and not something else, an ST/STe derivative would probably be the best option (inless he'd known of Sierra and decided to scrap the ST in favor of that), avoiding haivng too much different hardware out at once. (if you had an additional 16-bit system, youd have that, plus the ST line, plus the 7800, plus the lynx, and that's assuming the 2600 is discontinued a bit earlier and XEGS never existed) For that statement to work, one would have to assume that Atari caused the crash. That was not the case. Oversaturating the market and making a vairety of mistakes (not listening to customers' suggestions/complaints, lack of quality control -too much of a "quantity over quality" mentality, among other things including the botched 5200) which weakened the market and caused consumers to begin losing interest. When a company that controls well over 2/3 of the market fails, it's going to take the rest of the market with it. (granted Commodore's actions around the time with their price cutting kind of pushed things over the edge, but all that did was push things over the edge they were on already) Perhaps, but that particular example also had to do with poor decisions with the Adam. (had they kept the CV and had a more practical Adam along side, they might have just pulled through, particularly selling through mail order like Mattel did durring/after the crash) As to specs in general, games themselves are important, and features of the hardware to create these effectively make the specs important in that respect (hardware capabilities/features -sprites/scrolling/colors etc, ease of programming, and audio capabilities) There's also the comparison to contemporaries to show their relative merits and strengths. (whether if they can compete) There's also the issues of cost and other factors, in the 7800's case it featured 2600 compatibility as well as being inexpensive and simple. (all issues with the 5200) It had it's flaws, and it's really a shame they didn't add a POKEY instead of the on-cartridge route, but still it corrected a good number of issues. (plus MARIA had some nice features, though peculiarities and limitations as well, and even with the TIA, sound was a bit better than on the 2600 -presumably due to additional CPU time) Good points, granted Activision (and IMAGIC) did some copying of their own, but in most cases these turned out as great games and often better than the inspiration. (and in some cases they're more coincidence than copy) Atari (Warner) was the absolute worse though for the oversaturation (both 1st party releases and other companies coming to them for ROM chips, which they had a semi monopoly on -who need lockout?) The NES had many of these issues as well, but Nintendo did have better quality control (granted they had a lot of crap "seal of quality" official games as well, but nothing like Arari, particularly comparing the # of games released to consoles sold; NES had far more consoles and substancially fewer games) Renting was still pretty new/nonexistant for the early part of the NES's life and Nintendo had sued to keep games form being rented as well. (reviews of games were sparce as well, and companies' own mags were little help due to the biassed nature) I don't know, as a combo console/comuter system (which had been a prototyped considderation by Nintendo), anyway Nintendo isn't necessarily a good example, they lacked the really original defining games ealry on, in 1984 thy'd have been in little better of a situation than anyone else, and they were unknown to the public, unlike Atari, Coleco, or Mattel. Still it may not have died, jut taken a long time to gain momentum into 1986. Had Atari not been bleeding money as bad as they were, may have ridden things out, particularly with the 7800 addressing many of the problems of the 5200 (low cost, simplicity, backwards compatibility. Of course, this would have meant for Atari/Warner to make better decisions beforehand which may have prevented the crash alltogether. (inless they kept the poor quality practices gennerally, but didn't make the mistakes of ET and Pac Man and other overproduction of their own products -still oversaturation of poor/games in general, but not the severe money costing mistakes of overstock at Atari) Again, Mattel did OK through mail order (though I think this was just selling off old stock, which there was a lot of; I've seen statements of them selling as many Intellivisions post charsh as prior), but Coleco in particular could have made out better with their Adam, had they planned things better. (namely the tape drive decision, and some marketing issues)

I'm not entirely sure either way, he never mentions specifically, it seems the main thesis is just based around the 7800's release in 1984 rather than any specific scenario. He later mentions the Lynx, Panther (shudder), and Jaguar; this could just be another assumption though, and honestly Atari would still be a rather natural choice to end up with inless Epyx or Flare tried to partner with a Japanese company (probably not going to happen with the handheld at least), or possibly another US/EU company. (perhaps Commodore??? maybe a toy company or other electronics/computer company?) I could see Sega or Nintendo possibly picking up the Flare design (Nintendo did afterall pick the SGI MIPS chipset for their N64), though the timelin's a bit off given Flare had been working on (parts of) the designs since the late '80s and I think joined up with Atari around 1990, while Sega/Nintendo wouldn't really be interested until around 1993. I think the inbetween ST-Jaguar system you're referring to is the "32-bit" Panther (68k CPU and 32-bit "Panther" Object Processor). This thread's author mentioned it as well and suggested it as the successor to Atari's post 7800 16-bitter and pre-jaguar, but as I responded earlier, that's a very bad idea: See this thread for previous discussion on it: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?s...68#entry1750868

Yeah I suppose so, if anything the POKEY could have been included in addition to the 2149, just for added sound. (given it was an Atari owned peice of hardware it may be cheaper than adding something else) The POKEY also had the nice feature of allowing its (4-bit) DACs to be written to directly for digital audio playback. (rather than having to use other, indirect methods via the YM2149) If Yamaha had really given them a good price, perhaps getting an additional sound chip form them would also have been a good option. As I mentioned a Yamaha FM synthesis chip is another option that should be relatively inexpeisive, the YM2413 is the first thought, probably the most cut-down available and in a narrow 18-pin DIP. The YM2612 (Sega Genesis) is an interesting option as well, particularly with built-in 8-bit DAC available through channel 6. (with that channels FM turned off) Yeah, a lot of that came up here too: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=145867 (along with other interesting coincidences surrounding the Panther) There were worse cases certainly, and almost anything (except maybe the Channel-F) beats what the average IBM/compatible PC had available prior to the late '80s. (early models of the ZX spectrum were limited to a "beeper" as well) The sound capabilities of the AY/YM2149 chip are similar in many ways to the (similarly common) Texas Instruments SN76489 PSG, though each has its own advantages, the sound is often very similar. (the ST renditions in Space Harrier are poor compared to the Master System's ones for example, but programming has a lot to do with this, the Amiga Version sounds absoulutely terrible -and not because of the SID-ish sound it has, but just the way it's handeled overall an how it cuts out all over the place)

I don't want to get this more off topic than it already is or aggravate anyone, but (I only skimmed parts so I'm not sure if this was mentioned), freely posting a game "rom" (etc) and selling the hard copy aren't mutually exclusive by any means, not sure how many homebrew releases end up this way though, or the specific scenarios that go along with it. (I'd immagine that a freely rleased game might later -by or with the author's permission- be produced and sold later on; if you reverse this it might get tricky as some people who paid for it initially could get angry that it's now being distributed freely) That said, there's another option that doesn't really have any problems, and that would be freely distrubuting a demo/cut-down version for people to try via emulation (or flash cart for those that have them) and then selling the full version. This way you get more attention, people get to try it out to see if they like it and others who weren't planning on buying it either way at least get a taste of what it's like. (and might even get swayed towrd actually buying it, inless of course they don't have a Jaguar and aren't willing to get one for the increasingly high cost) This, of course requires a good emulator to be accessible. (though, honestly, the current Jag emulators are OK, I do hope they continue to improve though) Another option (still not exclusive of any of the previous except a freely released full version) is to sell the hard copy, and then sell a downloadable version ported to other platforms. (Win PC for one, perhaps Mac, maybe Linux, and possibly on current systems like the PS3/360) This is where a good emulator would come in handy as well. (port the emulator once and you've got a mechanism to release Jag games almost automatically) This would be particularly advantageous on a relatively obscure system such as the Jaguar where customes (while many hardcore fans) are quite limited. There's also some types of games that you couldn't really sell without legal issues, like ports of other games that would be cool to have on the system. (games that have the sourse code freely available but the game ittself is not open for release, you could use shareware additions, but selling them would have issues as well I think; please correct me if I'm mistaken) One question though, if you build a new game using the sourse code from an existing game (like all those homebrew doom derivatives), would it be leagal to sell such a game? (or a port/derivative of open source software)

Does POKEY feature 4-bit DACs or is that just a limitation of the "DAC mode" and when using the DACs in this manner can the channels be configured comobined into higher resolution ones. (wikipedia's page on POKEY mentiones it featuring 4x 8-bit channels that can alternately be configured as 2 16-bit channels or a single 16-bit plus 2 8-bit channels) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY

In some ways, yeah, but I think the burocratic problems were the main problem. (and influenced many of the other problems) The (perceived) piracy threat on the Dreamcast was a bigger problem than DVD support IMO, and they'd have had to launch it significantly later to practically incluse a DVD drive. With the Saturn cut short in the US that would have left Sega without n active console for around 3 years. (causing them to lose their head start, and also the cost advantage due to the expence of the DVD drive, the GD-ROM drive being more or less a normal CD-ROM drive) Despite that and other problems with their releationships with developers durring the DC's life, it was very successful for its short life (at least outside Japan), no way could it have competed with the PS2 directly, but seeing how much the GC and Xbox struggled, who knows how the DC would have fared had they followed through. Again, it's off topic, and if you're ever on Sega-16 it'd be an interesting topic to pic-up over there. I don't know if the ST would come into play at all, if this hypothetical is for Warner-Atari, or some "other" purchaser of Atari. There was the licencing of the Amiga to considder, but also Atair's own shelved (fully prototyped) 68000 projects, Sierra seeming the most practical, but information too vague to really tell what the capabilities/cost were. (Gaza, with its workstation orientation and dual CPU design, would not be in the running here) A computer expansion had been a significant part of the 7800's planned lifecycle (perhaps an integrated standalone unit as well), something that was cut after the crash and under Tramiel. And for Atari alone (no Tramiel or ST, or Amiga) this would be interesting, as would the 8-bit line development, though including the older components for backwards compatibility would add to cost. Perhaps another route would be to kind of follow the Apple II's evolution, later versions with faster processors and maybe a 16-bit (65816) development as well. Or this in conjunction with the aplication of the MARIA. Or you could go with one of the 68000 machines (again Sierra would seem the most practical), or the 68000 computer as the high-end computer and the further developed 8-bit line as the (backwards compatible) budget line. Lots of possibilities here, another would be to go with the 7800+computer add-on (possibly in integraded form) to boost interest in the computer market, and get those retailers' interested. Continue the 8-bit line as it was (at least the standard 800XL) as a budget line while also launching a new high-end machine (like Sierra), possibly using this as the basis for their next-gen console. Otherwise continue with MARIA, or an enhanced derivative and use that as the basis for your next console. I'm not sure further offering backwards compatibility would be a good idea, maybe if you can utilize the old hardware in a useful manner. Sega did this rather well in the Genesis, though in Atari's case they'd need to include 2600 hardware as well for 7800 compatibility, perhaps an adapter module could contain that, also allowing a differnt cartridge connector as well, puting the necessary connections on the cartridge connector to facilitate this. (rather like Sega's power bace converter, but including active circuitry as well, namely TIA and RIOT and any additional switches as well -that are absent from the main unit) They could have included a 6502C onboard the main unit as a coprocessor. (in Sega's case they used the Z80 as a sound processor -though it wasn't limited to this it was the main purpose, controlling the PSG and YM2612's FM synthesis as well as handling digital audio playback and some simple wavetable synthesis through the YM2612's 6th channel DAC -with 8 kB of RAM -used as the SMS's main memory when in compatibility mode) When you mention the joypads, are you talking about the 7800 proline controllers in the US, or the NES/Master System style gamepads that were released in Europe? (I would assume the former) They could have made both available though for those that prefer each type, or scrapped the proline for someting like a 2-button CX-40. (though that might have been just as awkward depending on how they placed the second button)

The problem was that 3rd parties weren't the bigggest problem (there was stuff here and there, and the handful of porn games, but not that significant of an issue) A very large portion of crap was being released by Atari themselves something that quality controll (not rushing things out the door for a quick buck) would impact more than lockout. What lockout would allow is money made from 3rd party licencing, which in turn could allow the hardware price to be cut (in later generations many companies were cutting to the point of breaking even ot taking losses on hardware to later make it up on software -particularly once cheap disc media became popular) The NES had/has plenty of crap too, and like the 2600 a very large portion were theirs (rather their officially licenced games in N's case). Also like the 2600 there were a trmendous number of good games to choose from, and you could usually count on N's 1st party stuff to be top notch. The trick, of course, is telling the good from the bad in a time where official reviews were nonexistant, and Gaming magazines few to none. (and you couldn't count on a company's own magazine for that as they'd never badmouth a product, though Nintendo Power had a crytic way of hinting at things that you'd only notice if you already knew about the game -and weren't a young kid)

I menat specifically compared to the POKEY, I wasn't sure if the analogy was limited to the polynomial based sound generation or if POKEY's DAC's could be written to directly as well. (rathter than using tricks to play samples like on some contemporary sound chips) You mentioned TIA as well, was it basicly in the same situation as pokey in terms of the DAC's?

I think the tones are definitely there in all other versions (the fractal algorithm generated never ending riffs), though they do sound a bit loud. The version in the CGR video seems almost identical to the XE version, which does look and sound a bit different from the 5200/A8-bit version. The famicom's port has these tones almost inaudible though. Here's an example of the Atari XE version: and the 800 version to compare directly: The additional tones don't start until 1 minut into the game's intro/attract mode. (so you'd need to wait awhile to actually hear it, very quiet at first, but gradually increases in volume, on the CGR video he'd just had the intro going for awhile to get it that loud)

I don't think so! Take one look at the PC-Engine/Turbografx version of R-Type and Nemesis Outrun etc. What Sega did to the NES with the Megadrive NEC would have done to the 7800 with this little arcade machine in a case the size of a small packet of chips. It was Mario and Zelda however that sold the NES to millions of American kids. In the UK the NES flopped though anyway, we have more taste in good games so we bought other things I don't like that too much either, but it's still better than the thing about Sega dropping to software only... Remember that in this hypothetical Atari is also launching its own 16-bit console in 1989 (honestly I'd have chosen 87/88) so it wouldn't have the same advantage Sega/NEC did over the NES. Also note that only Sega really made headway in the US (while the PCE did pretty well in Japan, where the MegaDrive languished) largely due to their marketing tactics. (NEC focused too much on big cities, which worked well in Japan but not the more dispersed US) Also the TG-16 was going to be significantly larger than the PC Engine due to FCC restrictions. (larger case to fit RF sheilding) Not sure how much of the TG-16 is actually empty space though. (haven't seen inside one) You forgot to mention the catylist that pushed the unstable market over the edge and a significant contributor to the low computer prices. Commodore's aggressive price undercutting in the computer market. Or Atari screwing up with the problematic and expensive 5200. I don't think the public necessarily needed that much time to recover, it all depends on perception, with convincing enough marketing they could have speeded up the process. Part of why Nintendo took longer was they were new on the block and unproven, While retailers were very wary of any (non computer) video games, and Atari had gotten a bad rep with them, the consumers are the driving force to focus on, and at worst mail order is an alternate route. (with too little retail distributor support) Atari had lost some ground with consumer confidence, but not irreperable if the proper action was taken. (hot sales of the 2600 Jr mid/late 1995 showed that the market was still viable before Nintendo had had an impact -and withAtari Corp's tight budget -of course with this being a bit late it doesn't directly support the 1984 release, but they could at very least get their fot in the door again, particularly with mail order initially while they regained retailers' confidence) I dissagree on the Sega analogy, their situation was far more complex and had a lot more to due with comflicts between Japan and SoA than it did customer confidence. (and many mistakes that were related to these conflicts, manifesting it 1993 and becoming pronounced by 1994 and worsened with Kalinske finally leaving, disheartened in 1996) The add-ons had their problems, but so did the Saturn (all 3 had technical, philosophical, and burocratic issues), this isn't the place to discuss this though, there are other sites for that: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7061 http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7183

Don't know about the earl Mac's (and I couldn't find a refrence in the quick search I did), but the Apple IIGS had an Ensoniq ES5503 "DOC" 32 channel (16 channel stereo) wavetable systhesis chip. In a few previous discussions the use of a POKEY (or multiple ones, or a derivative) should have been used instead, but while it has I/O functions as well, it can't interface with a 68000 properly in its current form, so if it was used it wouldn't take the place of the 2149. (though a cost reduced, smaller package sound-only POKEY could have worked, or even had an integrated twin or quad pokey chip -the latter was in the arcades but I'm not sure it was an actual POKEY derivative or how expensive it was) The advantage there is POKEY is a custom design that's property of Atari (so not purchasing or licensing costs) and is still a pretty decent sound chip. (and with the I/O functions removed and a smaller package it would be cheaper in its own right, though using a larer multi-pokey would mitigate this somewhat, a single one would still be a good addition to the 2149, though dual/twin one would proably have been nice) They could have initially used extra stock of POKEYs left over from the 8-bit line as well, prior to switching to a cheaper sound-only one.

Meh, I know plenty of people whole drasiticaly prefer the sound generated from PSG/square wave generators and other simple sound generators (like POKEY, TIA, and the VIC chip) over the C64's (some of which dislike the common musical style on the C64 more than the chip itsself -excessive use of arpeggio -which I rather like- and "warbly," "nasaly," or "whiny" sounds -which I also find interesting). I personally like different aspects of all of these (even a minimalist TI PSG) or FM synthesis compared to wavetable (each can be used poorly of course). To each their own. (and I can certainly understand how one could find the SID's sound "off" or annoying, though I don't personally) The more I think about it the more I think trying to use the 2149 in the manner I suggested is really useful past curiosity, and especially in my suggestion for use in games. (except maybe intros/opening demos or non in-game scenes where more CPU time could be didicated) The comment on the midi module caught my interest, I know the ST has midi in and out ports and that standard midi modules (like the MT-32) sould work fine for programes supporting them, but what kind of affordable/inexpensive moudules were available? (were there any specifically aimed at gaming like the PC's Adlib and Soundblaser were) In terms of games, including an onboard FM synthesis chip (particularly a lower cost one) would have helped a lot with minimal expense. I think the YM2413 was one of the cheapest (if not the cheapest) FM synth chip available around this time, though it's also rather limited in what it can do. The YM2612 (notably used in the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive and FM Towns) is an interesting consideration, particularly as it's 6th channel also features an 8-bit DAC for digital sample playback. (the FM on the channel is disabled while the DAC is being used)

OK, I read this well back durring this discussion, but one question now. Could the DACs in the POKEY be written to directly for sample playback or are the similarities limited to the sound generation?

Well, I don't think there's enough info on the Atari 68000 projuct to judge things, they could have been relatively similar in terms of cost to the Amiga chipset. (though probably not Gaza) If anything, it probably would have been one of the designs to be picked up, and from what I've read it would seem far more likely (and practical) to choose Sierra 68000 for this. (Gaza apears to be a high-end workstation with some similarities to Sierra, but also using dual 68000's) The YM2149 was also the I/O chip, so you'd need to either keep it or get a seperate I/O chip inless you had that built into another sound chip. As for AMY, it would have been a nice addition, and may have been an option had Tramiel kept on the development team. For better sound in the ST, you could have gone a simpler route as well, a relatively inexpensive FM syntheis chip would go a long way. There were plenty of Yamaha synth chips to choose from, and several low-cost ones as well. (the YM2413 being particularly cut-down, though also rather limited) The YM2612 used in the Sega Genesis and FM Towns could have been a good choice, a decent 6-channel FM synth chip that also featured an 8-bit DAC on the 6th channel (FM on that channel has to disabled), so you could possibly get some better digitized sound playback (voices, sfx, and some instruments, especially percussion) than noramlly possible through the 2149. (and the 2149 itsself would still be a nice complement) You mean they'd have stayed with Atari. They'd already gotten funding ($500,000 iirc) from Warner and a deal to allow the Amiga hardware to be adapted into a game console and sold by Atari and, eventually, as the complete computer as well. However, the current deal was rather unattractive for Amiga (I beleive all they got out of it was the funding, no royaltees or such), hence why they were trying to get out of that situation. Had another company baught up Atari, it's possible they could have kept Amiga, but probably would have had to make compromises with a new contract.