PeteD

You should be right but you've basically got to play samples which will change the rate so fast that as long as you don't keep ending samples on weird volumes the underlying output tends to sound fine. It's quite possibly to do with when the master volume effects the channels as they all basically have volume also because of the ADSR. Not entirely sure, when I wrote a SID emulator I never got down to the nitty gritty why samples didn't just screw everything else. I'll try to find some tunes with distinctive samples and 3 voice stuff. this isnt too bad about 25 seconds in. The normal channels are actually drowning out the samples on that one but there are actually samples playing constantly (checked in Java Sidplayer graphical output)

Yeah, it's basically a bug they "fixed" it on the 8580 chips When the volume changes it produces a click at that volume, so dumping 4 bit sample data into it gets you a sample playing using only the volume. I remember the click problem. Wouldn't that cause the DAC-effect to screw with the regualar audio, or does it appear to mix cleanly? It sounds fine surprisingly and it's used in lots of games and demos. Then you get the usual "we can mix X samples into 4 bits" eeek! Not so great. There are newer techniques for playing pseudo samples using the voices as well, which means samples with filters etc. Sounds really impressive IF you want your C64 to sound like an Amiga mod player

This has confused me. Can SID play 3 voices plus a DAC voice? See above

Yeah, it's basically a bug they "fixed" it on the 8580 chips When the volume changes it produces a click at that volume, so dumping 4 bit sample data into it gets you a sample playing using only the volume. *edit* I'm sure "click" is oversimplifying whats actually going on, but that's the basis of it.

I'm pondering but I do actually think before I made a reply and pointed out what he "might" mean there was a distinct possibility it was the "other" way. Considering all the other silly things that have been proclaimed in this thread, a simple math error seems trivial. There is one way in which you can use a Pokey channel after it's been lost as the silent half of a 16-bit channel. The output stage is still available as a 4-bit DAC. Like a SID volume sample player SID's up to 4

agreed - since English isn't his native tongue, he most likely didn't realize that the way he wrote it was ambiguous. Misunderstandings happen very easily. I watched a video yesterday of a BNP (basically a racist UK political party) member and his cronies beating up some asian youths. To me what I originally heard which is what I believe the kids heard was the BNP guy saying "how many of you are robbers?", which kicked off all the trouble. After listening again I heard "how many are there of us?" as he pointed out to the youths that they were somewhat outnumbered.

Interesting that you think in terms of attack. It the first thing i come to think of when several people trying to really annoy a single person. Like you did in your first reply today. SEVERAL and YOU DID are plural and singular. Not really grounds for complaint. I think your conduct within your first few posts has been the problem.

Interesting that you think in terms of attack. Especially as the most confrontational/personally attacking person is the one complaining about it.

I'm pondering but I do actually think before I made a reply and pointed out what he "might" mean there was a distinct possibility it was the "other" way.

POKEY HAS 4 CHANNELS!!!

Hmmm, let's give this a go... Well, you are dumb [#0] to say SID's sounds cause less inner ear damage [#1] and I can't believe you'd say something so insensitive [#2] but I guess you're just a gay girl with a gun [#5] and everyone in the Pokey Elite Club knows it. [#6] Your gravy is not cylindrical [#7] but I'll be climbing Mt. Everest blindfolded [#8] instead of arguing with you, friend. [#9] [#4] But when I get back I'm going to kick your ass. [#10] Okay, I have no idea how to use #3. Whipping out the shiny thing seems to conjure up a different image for me. I actually had some cylindrical gravy the other day made my own beef demi-glace (yeah yeah, ponce, I know hehe) and left it in a cylindrical container. It was maaaaybe a little over reduced as it stayed that shape when I tipped it out

..and that's just the problem. 1. Nobody has said POKEY has anything other than 4 channels, I asked you to show me where I'd said so, you posted quotes that DID NOT prove you were right. 2. YOU YOURSELF countered your own argument against me from before you "quit the forum forever" by posting about combining 2 channels to get a good bass sound resulting in 3 channels (and that's giving you the benefit of the doubt not what GB says that you actually meant 3 excluding the bass). How you can STILL argue when you've posted that yourself is beyond me. Continually questioning other people about them saying it had less than 4 channels seems to be clutching at straws as if it's the ONLY thing you know to be fact, especially when the people you're arguing with have told you so.

There was a disagreement about how thin or fat SID/POKEY can be which seems to have been more of a communication problem, certainly no "you're old aren't you" or "you cant be THAT dumb" or repeating "4 channels" over and over when you know EXACTLY what I mean because you spent a couple of days arguing counter to your "combine 2 channels for a bass" post the other day.

Unfortunately that happened days ago.

Are you serious? lol After all that arguing the other day when it's exactly that point I was trying to get across. I expect an apology You mean that pokey does not have 4 channel sound? You know very well what I mean. If you want to start this argument again when even YOU have just said the same as I was saying then I suggest you do your homework first. Does pokey have 4 channel sound or not? Ok, for the LAST time, pokey has 4 EIGHT BIT channels. OK, if you STILL don't understand the connotations of that when YOU just posted "combine 2 for a better bass sound" then that's your problem. Pete It has 4 eight bit channels. That's correct. Does that mean that you can use 2 channels for the bass and still have three channels to make music with? err maybe I was too fast to reply to Groovybee?! Are YOU saying that combining 2 channels for a bass LEAVES you with 3 MORE channels? If so, very wrong, if not, see all my previous points about 8 vs 16 bit, combining channels to get accuracy of frequency etc so leaving you with less usable channels than the base 4.

You thought it had five earlier (emphasis mine). lol, that's how I originally read it then thought nah, nobody could be that crazy and re-read it as 3 including the 2 channel bass.

Are you serious? lol After all that arguing the other day when it's exactly that point I was trying to get across. I expect an apology You mean that pokey does not have 4 channel sound? You know very well what I mean. If you want to start this argument again when even YOU have just said the same as I was saying then I suggest you do your homework first. Does pokey have 4 channel sound or not? Ok, for the LAST time, pokey has 4 EIGHT BIT channels. OK, if you STILL don't understand the connotations of that when YOU just posted "combine 2 for a better bass sound" then that's your problem. Pete

Are you serious? lol After all that arguing the other day when it's exactly that point I was trying to get across. I expect an apology You mean that pokey does not have 4 channel sound? You know very well what I mean. If you want to start this argument again when even YOU have just said the same as I was saying then I suggest you do your homework first.

Are you serious? lol After all that arguing the other day when it's exactly that point I was trying to get across. I expect an apology

Ok, final post on this one because I think we're talking at cross purposes.. I don't think you're saying SID is mega thin, I'm just disagreeing with you (right from my first ending reply) that I don't think it is thin at all unless wanted to be and that you're saying something subjective that others don't agree with. As for the SID coming later than POKEY I wasn't implying that MUST mean it's better, just it does have a more synth like design, something that barely existed in POKEYs day. Having 2 synths and the better one being the earlier one kind of means nothing to this comparison unless one has POKEY and the other has SID in it. I've got a few guitars, some people think old strats etc are better, I prefer my more modern models that have better hardware etc, ergo, SID is better? no, not what I'm saying. okies? I'm done with this one now because it's going nowhere as it's all subjective anyway. *edit for typos* Pete

Well I for one have never said POKEY is "nothing" compared to SID. It's just a different beast entirely. SID was built specifically for music (it's basically a synth on a chip) whereas POKEY happens to be able to play sound (not sure if it's by clever design or accident, I don't know as much about the history/design process of POKEY) and that's not a diss, it's more of a multi-function chip whereas SID is dedicated (and came later). It can certainly do a lot more than a lot of people would expect and so far it's probably got the best sound effects (C64 gamers weren't really interested in FX anyway) and combining waveforms as you say can produce some better sounds but I still wouldn't say SID was thin, and it doesn't have to combine waveforms. If you think so that's ok, I have zero problem with that, as has already been discussed, people hear things differently. There's also the difference with what you can hear on SID because of the filters (that was a really bad design problem) and then fixing that but going to the 8580 which can produce even fatter sounds. You may have also noticed my on my first reply to you ie I'm having a little joke about differences of opinion on subjective things like what sounds best to you or what looks best to DimensionX. Pete

The Apple was well supported and had the best library of professional apps, but compared to the graphics and sound capability of the A8 and 64, it loses by a mile. It got Prince of Persia though

Hmmmm more thin than pokey, or are you telling me my stereo amplifier is damaged? And no I do not use cheap speakers. Can you give some examples of things you're using to compare? The thing with SID is it's capable of a huge variety of sounds and is well know for being fatter (or is that phatter) for bass sounds. It all depends on what envelopes are used, what waveforms, what filters etc. I think POKEY sounds a little more powerful and more "machine like" but I wouldn't say SID is thin unless that's what the musician wanted. Pete

SID, thin? Now you're talking crazy Pete

You missed my edit I think all demos should have as many flashing lights on screen as possible attempting to play in time with the music!