STE'86

Would the response be any different if I went to the Lemon64 or CSDB forums and done the same thing to them (though vice versa--Atari games better than C64 ones--just so we're clear on our English here)? No it wouldn't. why dont u do it as an experiment. tho i am fairly sure you would get 300 pages of LOLs rather than arguments defending the 64s abilty. actually there was one recently i just remembered. everyone who participated reeled off the same 6 that everyone always does. then ran out of games and it died at 4 pages. Steve

Sorry, C-64 permanently lost because to prevent people from misleading like you are attempting the discussion of hardware aspects was started so people can understand why something is better on one machine than another. So rather than take some biased samples, people can see that overall A8 can make much much better games than C64. i'm sorry but are u actually stating there that overall Atari games are much better than 64 ones? even tho 30 years of evidence is in direct dispute to that. i have to know if thats what u really meant to say. please clarify Steve

But it won't help with more colours, more sprites etc. We already have seen the turbo boards working on the C64, even the fast CPU doesn't help there. On the A8 you need 5 CPU cycles to switch 8K of RAM immediately (resulting in theoretical "billions" of bytes per second). It would be fast enough to point POKEY and ANTIC there. Showing 60fps 256 colour videos plus digi sounds at a recognizable rate. how do u work that one out then? as by its very nature a faster cpu would allow the 64 to run software as well as hardware sprites together. so basically yes it would help with more sprites wouldnt it? obviously Steve

Actually, my english isn't good enough to see on the first sight, whether a post is ment serious or ironic. Actually (2nd) , I don't know where to get this today. Many people DO soldering the expansion, to save "space". really? you Do surprise me considering how fluent and verbose u have been in it having a pop at him for about 10 fcking pages

RAM is no option to disqualify.It's just like to say "C64 users is not allowed to use trackloaders" just because the A8 does not take that much benefit by this. All machines, also C64, were created to use RAM/ROM expansions. C64 freaks tend to deny RAM expansions, because the C64 doesn't take much benefit by this... not really. its probably more to do with it not being an "out of the box" machine and a level playing field. having 5x the amount of RAM and then jumping up and down shouting how your game is far better than a 64 defeats the object somewhat. u may as well have written it on a next generation machine like an St or Amiga, as no machines of the A8/c64 vintage had this overwhelming advantage. Steve dont get me wrong i have no objection to anyone writing purely for 320k emu based A8s but getting insufferably smug that u finally "beat a 64" by doing it is a touch ludicrous.

but like I've said before is this thread about games, possible games or hardware possibilites? Pete Ultimately I would hope it's a quest to find the best features of each standard machine models sold at the time (so no SCPU/REU C64s or VBXE or 320kb A8s!), neither machine is perfect ALL 8bit (and most 16bit) home computers are a massive compromise. Features can be anything from the quality of the I/O routines (inc tape as well as disk turbos in software only so using standard hardware) If new hardware tricks are discovered along the way for either then great...and this goes beyond sound and graphics tricks, things like a tape loading turbo routine in software was a painful MIA feature for A8 gamers in EU for one compared to other home computers of the time. Existing games as an average don't always give a true picture, look at how absolutely pathetic most arcade conversions of Amiga games are, and yet in the hands of a talented coder the games can be as good as Sharp x68000 or Neo Geo games. Only takes a handful of examples of each machine being pushed to it's limits to see some potential (again the Amiga being the perfect example comparing Lotus Turbo Challenge II and Outrun or Chase HQ games of what is and what should have been!) yes but in 30 years there is not as far as i have seen not ONE viable playable game that looks as good as u lot insist it can and should. i find this quite worrying when reading alll this "could be" "should be" "will be" posting Steve edit, this was not intended as a personal post to oky2000, i just wanted to use his paragraph about new methods and coders

Here would be a good place to spell it out in non technical simple english for non A8 coders. Max resolution/pixel accuracy across entire screen? 160x200? 320x200? Any 23 colours? Impact on CPU utilization? Effect/reduction on available PM resources? See while it is 7 more colours than the C64 when you use 16 colours in a C64 game you still have the following advantages... No impact on theoretical maximum multiplexed sprites/sprites in the borders etc. Minimal impact on CPU (16 colour screens via 2 colours per 4x8 pixel block is stock hardware mostly with a more effort to get 3rd and 4th colours up) Minimal impact of scrolling these screens. etc etc For example could you make a 23 colour version of Last Ninja or Exploding Fist or IK+ or even a 23 colour conversion of say the C64 16 colour game Lifeforce/Salamander? mate i wil be impressed if we get more than 5 on Fist with these poxy graphics limitations

Patience, grasshoppa... ah, the short translation of this is "not got a f*cking clue and was rather hoping that a load of other fanboys would jump on pete for not knowing this"

see pete i told u that fist should be done in green with just the players in colour. Steve

not such a good idea to try for US stuff i think. i have looked at most of the "famous" US games in the last few months and tbh past the middle of 1984 u will be stuck with the 3 lucas games as the only ones better on the A8. all the other stuff i looked at like epyx "games" series the c64 drops on the A8 from a considerable height. but go ahead. try to surprise us. Steve oh i thought of one more. karateka coz its a bit faster on the a8.

interesting theories here to define "isometric" games. in the real world outside of this fantasy land forum u live in, ISOMETRIC is used to describe the way an object (in this case a game screen) is drawn using 30 degree, 60 degree horizontal and vertical lines. there is nothing in the definition to say that u cant use any or all hardware at your disposal to do this. do u nutters actually think that if the spectrum had got hardware sprite capability that Ultimate would have forgone its use to do their iso games? if u do actually think this u are in fact stark raving bloody mad. Steve

Great isn't it, Mastertronic, UKs top selling software house during the 80s/early90s. Yes mate, i have heard of them vaguely . 25 years ago i was a c64 graphic designer the first time around. i just dont remember them being that crap. Steve

where do u keep pulling these comparison games from? "totally shit games 'r' us?" either of those invasion games look like the game has crashed on screen and corrupted the graphics. its not really proving anything that a crap looking atari game is marginally superior looking than a REALLY crap looking 64 game now is it? and if scraping the bottom of the barrel to find such games is the only recourse to proving an atari game can look better than a 64 one then realistically u are only proving the opposite. so lets just let the comparisons of crap games fade away i think Steve

64 couldn't handle the isometric? doubtful. there are quite a few c64 iso games that started life on the spectrum. they were executed well enough, but they were never as popular with the 64 games players (head over heels, great escape etc) 64s programmer couldnt handle the iso? possibly. however without knowing which was actually done first (the both say 1987) how can u know if the 64 one is like that, because the programmer isnt up to doing the iso, or that the atari one is as it is because the 64 game is 8 way multiscrolling with sprites and the atari programmer or even dare i say...the machine wasnt up to that? what i am basically saying is how do u know which game the original design was supposed to look like? look at Paradroid and its spectrum equivalent Quasartron to illustrate the same game done the respective machines strengths. tho i agree the 64 game looks woeful. but then i am less than enamoured with the spectrum look of the a8 either. Steve edit: actually it looks more like a Mac1 than a speccy . which would have been in colour at least

whooooaaaaaa. thats one hell of a jump in logic. because a couple of 3 colour sprites can move over the same 3 colour background then exploding fist with its much larger sprites which move freely over a 16 colour background is just a "not done away". jesus mate if it was that easy then why do more than 50% of the games i have seen on here for the a8 look like VCS port jobs? i can understand the inexperienced thinking that IK is done so Fist should be easy (i did myself to start with). because they dont notice that ik sprites move over only blank areas but Ninja????? thats just laughable. and having spent the last 3 weeks decolouring and redrawing c64 fist screens and porting and recolouring bbc ones to try and obtain the best compromise on the A8 i feel i can speak with some authority on this matter. Steve

i'm thinking we might have to spend a while working out the raster splits for the 4 player one tho Pete but it is the same shade of green they used for gauntlet

oh dear i think i can hear a countdown just started... and Pete was trying to be nice too.

not wishing to belittle Archers programming proficiency, but "way ahead of his time"? no. not really. defender was over 3 years old when dropzone came out and had IK was released 18 months after Greg Holland and team did Way of the Exploding Fist (the benchmark 8 bit karate game, see other thread). so good coder, yes definitely. ahead of his time, no not really Steve

damn. i was relying on the st community to have ported it to be honest :/ Steve

question is the title really. is there anything that looks and feels like degas that has been written by an st fan for the PC perhaps for ST games development? i know some of u guys still develop for ST so do u use pc based stuff? Steve

The Ruined anghor temple and the strange vietnam looking bamboo house were part of the 2 player game packaged as part of Fist II along with the main adventure game. (this game and fist+ were poor shadows of the original) the thing that Fist has that sets it apart from IK is that Fist is FAR more of a 2 player experience because its gameplay is slightly slower than IK and the players are able to block far more effectively (both because the blocking code works much better and because the animation is slightly slower and lets u anticipate an attack) its much more of a tactical 2 player game than a joystick thrash like IK. Steve

fantastic sounds like a plan! how long would it take u to get a demo ready? Steve

the amstrad version the c64 version comparing the above with the bbc version u will see that the bbc version like the amstrad version makes certain that players cannot jump/flying kick/somersault over the detail background. however on the c64 the players can move over a bitmap which uses probably 2/3 of the palette. hence i really dont think that its doable whilst software spriting the players on in black,white,pink & red. however a properly "coloured up" bbc version looks to me to be the way to do a conversion of this rather than try to stick rigidly to the 64 placement and screen format. as the previous poster has so well pointed out. Steve

Hmm after evaluating the various fist versions on youtube for 2 hours, i dont think u could get the 64 fist backgrounds to work on the A8 the main sprites cross into too many colours. you would have to cheat like IK does and not let any character sprites go anywhere near detail areas or pattern the conversion on the amstrad color version which obviously had similar problems as an a8 would come across and is quite an elegant solution. a sort of hybrid IK/fist look. thoughts please? Steve

totally agree with all the comments about lucas stuff looking and playing nicer on the XL. ditto with my old favourite Karateka which i just to hijack my mates XL to play when i went to visit him. but tbh i doubt either machine is performing to its speed capabilities on any of the games. bearing in mind that 1980s american programmers didnt do the "optimised" "fast" or "small" words. if u couldnt load it in 27 parts from a disk they were buggered. anyway instead of all this "theoretical" nonsense how about doing: 1. a metallic glowy version of uridium instead of those "flat grey" ones i have seen 2. Paradroid another metallicy one 3..... WAY OF THE EXPLODING FIST! one of my own personal favourite games and lets be honest, u own just about the only 8 bit machine it was never done for. u really ought to rectify that. it was afterall one of the iconic 80s 2nd generation 64 games. and afterall, if u can do IK on an XL u can do fist surely Steve