STE'86
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Posts posted by STE'86
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a sample of a 3 colour c64 hardware sprite version or an a8 sw sprite version.
ofc the hair could be pmg'ed on which would therefore make it a 2 colour version giving 3 colours to the background.
Steve
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to seriously evaluate this, first of all the "sprite" data will have to be extracted from either the amstrad or the apple versions of the game.
If you look at the 2600 version thats in development (linked earlier in the thread) lots of the graphics have already been created/reworked.
well thats very impressive for a VCS but alas its not going to help us do a c64 or an a8 conversion. i am not talking about redrawing the graphics for these versions, thats a shedload of work at 160x200 and pointless exercise when they already exist at the size and res we would need in the apple and amstrad versions.
the more we could rip bodily from the existing versions, increases dramatically the chances that any demo conversion gets done. simply because i doubt anyone on here would want to redraw the whole game animation for free. but recolouring and retouching is another matter entirely.
Steve
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to seriously evaluate this, first of all the "sprite" data will have to be extracted from either the amstrad or the apple versions of the game.
these versions should offer the closest conversion of c64 or a8 graphics.
there will probably be a serious amount of frames if i recall the ST version correctly.
TBH i cant see a 64 version being too much of an outlandish project. enemy AI would be the hardest part.
however seeing as an a8 version would have to use software sprites and its associated colour reuse issues, this version could be a bit of a juggling act.
99 chars on the above is all very well but that will seriously increase when u have to take larger animation frames of player AND enemies into account.
this could actually be a feasible project.
Steve
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Personal preference but I nearly always thought SID sounded like a bunch of angry bees and had a horrid grating sound. Mostly in games and it lacked an authentic arcade sound to it. As has already been mentioned here but many arcades 79-84 had pokeys sound installed in them, same as Atari A8 though some arcades had 2 of them. For some newer arcade that had a distinctive "synthy" sound to them (GaPlus that someone posted comes to mind) it sounds just fine.
Do u HONESTLY expect anyone who has heard something like the arcade Commando music to prefer it to the Hubbard Commando version?
Pokeys do not offer "authentic" sound they offer "cheap" sound and they only reason they sound like arcade machines is that the early-mid 1980s arcade machines used the same type of crap chips in there to keep the costs down.
there is absolutely no question that the SID chip music sold c64 software. i would hazard a guess that the pokeys "authentic" sound effects never did.
troll on mate.
Steve
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You're going to provide the graphics targetted for Atari or ported from C64?
well the general consensus of opinion favours PC format indexed colour files available to either machine and immediately usable by neither. that way the coders can decide on how they intend to utilize the source images and what compromises they need to make to make it work for their particular mode or hardware.
also that way neither can "steal a march" on the other. in fact doing graphics as 4 colour source would make it a very level playing field as this can be immediately converted to either machine and be "tweaked" using pmgs on the a8 and colour ram on the 64.
but i am open to requests if u have something specific in mind.
can we expect to see u over there shortly then?
Steve
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lol you're off again now u think the coast is clear arent you atariski and emkay?
the offer still stands to put your money where you mouth is (i doubt anyone but Bill Gates has that sort of money tho)
AND come on over to TMR's forum
and sign up for an A8/c64 "code off"
you like very much to "talk the talk" about how superior the A8 is and how easily u can do this and that. How about u "walk the walk" for once on here?
stop telling us how its better than the c64 and show us for a change eh?
or just bottle out and vanish for a few days like last time till u think its clear again.
Steve
We already know the ATARI 800 is far better, otherwise the Commodore 64 supporters wouldn't try so desperately to defend their machine over here (and posting mostly ga-ga information).
well come on and show us then.
tell u what, if any of the "big talkers" on here have the bottle to go for it, i'll even try to provide the graphics for what they want. i cant say fairer than that.
Steve
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lol you're off again now u think the coast is clear arent you atariski and emkay?
the offer still stands to put your money where you mouth is (i doubt anyone but Bill Gates has that sort of money tho)
AND come on over to TMR's forum
and sign up for an A8/c64 "code off"
you like very much to "talk the talk" about how superior the A8 is and how easily u can do this and that. How about u "walk the walk" for once on here?
stop telling us how its better than the c64 and show us for a change eh?
or just bottle out and vanish for a few days like last time till u think its clear again.
Steve
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if u are looking for something to play on the cpc, i remember liking a "Battlezone" type game called "Taking Tiger Mountain" many many years ago.
Steve
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I had a 1541 demo where the drive played "msx" by repositioning... never appeared something similar on 1050?
are u talking about "Daisy Daisy"? the fairly infamous program that play "music" by vibrating the drive heads against the stops of a 1541?
Steve
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all i can remember from my albeit limited cpc experience ( 2 or 3 games as i recall) was that its colours very very vibrant but not a great selection. in particular its grey palette was very limited IIRC.
its plus points from a designers POV (apart from the vibrancy) were that
A) it acted like a 16 bit when u were drawing for it (no multicolour/colour ram/attribute problems)
and B) u could therefore create a palette for it on the ST and develop on there with a mouse rather than "go native"
Steve
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I'd like to see a Commodore 64 version of Star Raiders. Maybe one of you super-coders can do it, and jazz it up to surpass the A8 original with more color, etc. Could the C64 do a "color" version of Star Raiders?
i have to say that this one appeals to me
yes you could do Star Raiders in colour. the only potential stumbling block i can see is the use of "particle" graphics for explosions, which drags down the 1.8mhz atari chip so is certain to have a similar impact on the c64. however i would have thought that the use of c64 sprites to generate the rest of the graphics would compensate somewhat.
however the 64 already has a Star raiders clone called Sentinel
it doesnt however have decent version of Star Raiders 2/last starfighter. Activision naused that one up completely.
anyway if Star Raiders floats your boat have a look at PSI 5 Trading co
Steve
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guys u REALLY need to keep any contest fairly simple.
past experience tells me anything major won't get done. u cant do amiga stuff IMHO because u dont have access to usable graphics. and scaling 1:1 to 2:1 pixels doesnt happen and u do need 2:1 for either of these beasts.
i think the cpc idea is more workable simply because you can attempt to pull graphics at the right res.
failing that u need to scare up more graphic designers to help. far more than i have seen around here anyway (this is NOT intended as any offence just a simple statement of logistics)
finally biting off more than u can chew is a pointless exercise. there is no fun or advantage to be gained in experience if the project lingers for 2 years+ and never gets done. there are far too many of those as it is.
Steve
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blah blah waffle waffle talk shite.
put your ability where your mouth is and show us how you go about doing all these marvellous colour modes you TALK so much about Atariksi.
there are several of us well up for this.
how about you?
Steve
For those that have not seen the link. Try out some of the converters here and view the examples.
if u think that was a dig at u please read the post again
carefullyi have one too
Steve
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blah blah waffle waffle talk shite.
put your ability where your mouth is and show us how you go about doing all these marvellous colour modes you TALK so much about Atariksi.
there are several of us well up for this.
how about you?
Steve
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well, I also could draw better results in Photoshop.
are we "on" then?
what do u want to make the contest of?
whats the rules?
Steve
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I know I'm lazy and don't have the time to finish it. Here a 10 min. work in G2F...
well thanks for that.
but if u re read my post u will see that u have just proved my point, when i said that picture couldnt actually be DRAWN BY AN ARTIST in native atari format WITHOUT the help of "wiring" from another format.
2 mins in photoshop indexed colour mode and a 64 palette:
i can do it too.
but this one COULD be drawn on a native 64 format.
Steve
The picture looks a bit better. but the "shit" is still there and the "white" now doesn't look like a lightning effect as it was supposed to be.
yep i agree the white highlight is too striking now. and if i was drawing it i would fade it to light grey then pink.
BUT i can still draw it on a 64. which is more than u could do with your version on an a8.
but see above if u fancy having a go?????
Steve
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Ok.. The atari has more standard pallette colors, and the C=64 has more standard color registers.
Quite a few of you appear to REALLY know your shit, where your own respective preferred machines are concerned..
Instead of arguing these points into the ground, why don't you guys exchange source code and data, and challenge the other guy to produce a version of your game or demo on the opposite platform that equals (or bests) the original?
This would be the ultimate "put up or shut up" contest, and the community would benefit by having some pretty top-quality ports...
YES I AM UP FOR THIS. which ones of the guys who have been arguing with me about colours for 2 days will also be up for this i wonder?
what about it Irgendwer? or Emkay? or Atariksi?
its put up or shut up time
lets rock!!!!!!!!
Steve
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really? you KNOW this do u? even tho u didnt notice presumably that this pic is FLI and therefore could generate quite a few more available colours to make a pink from?
why dont u wander off now and go try and do some real stuff with a 64 palette. then maybe u WILL "know" things for future reference.
Steve
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tbh thats a really crap image to make a point with.
No, it a perfect image to underline what I tried (obviously unsuccessful) to explain.
nobody in their right mind would use so much light grey as highlight and the c64 certainly didnt pick it to use instead of the pink so the artist must have made the (bad) choice. why dont u go and find something better rather than picking a crap 64 screen to "prove" your point?
To prove my point it is totally irrelevant how an other artist would work. How do you know that the grey wasn't taken to have this specific artistic expression (like stated for other C64 imagery (yellow and green for cheeks))?
oh and while u are about it, consider the fact that an artist couldnt actually draw that natively on an atari.
Irrelevant. It seems that you try to insist that a 16 colour restriction is an advantage - sorry I cannot agree.
I've already pointed easier access for the restricted colours on C64 out.
Is it really so difficult?
Edit: Attached a sample which you may accept: Skin colour: Restriction or Intention?
And please forget that it is may not possible to reproduce this image on A8 - it has nothing to do with the point.
are u being deliberately obtuse?
have i not just posted a pink example of a face above?
of course the artist has chosen an expressionist colour set for the face.
the bloody leaf is blue ffs and the face is green. if u wanted "real" the leaf would be green wouldnt it?
so do YOU think it was a ccolour limitation?
Steve
edit u have exactly the same amount of pink/orange/brown shades as u have green. theres a clue for u
EDIT 2. and i have to congratulate u on finding that pic. that is a VERY nice artwork example
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I know I'm lazy and don't have the time to finish it. Here a 10 min. work in G2F...
well thanks for that.
but if u re read my post u will see that u have just proved my point, when i said that picture couldnt actually be DRAWN BY AN ARTIST in native atari format WITHOUT the help of "wiring" from another format.
2 mins in photoshop indexed colour mode and a 64 palette:
i can do it too.
but this one COULD be drawn on a native 64 format.
Steve
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I wonder why 'atariksi' point so difficult to understand. Just inspect the attached picture: If the creator intentionally took grey for the skin tone, ok then it is part of the artistic expression. But I dare to say, that I cannot imagine that for the artistic expression of every C64 artwork the C64 palette was the perfect match. So it is of course better to have a bigger choice of colours like on A8 - just the same way it's better to have a more flexible choice in addressing colours horizontally on the C64 thanks to the colour ram.
Two different restrictions - I'm not able to say which restriction is more worse, since I think it depends on the use case.
tbh thats a really crap image to make a point with. nobody in their right mind would use so much light grey as highlight and the c64 certainly didnt pick it to use instead of the pink so the artist must have made the (bad) choice. why dont u go and find something better rather than picking a crap 64 screen to "prove" your point?
oh and while u are about it, consider the fact that an artist couldnt actually draw that natively on an atari. to display that requires u to "wire" it either from another machine or with the help of a programmer to provide underlays. so really your point is a touch moot.
Steve
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To keep things objective, I stated that without abusing the colors. It's not subjective as "beauty is within the eye of the beholder" since that was made before digitization, takes into account factors like form, expression, etc. not just colors/shades. If two artists paint the same picture with same palette, and you prefer one over the other that's subjective. But if you gave one artist 16 colors and the other 256-- the objective factor comes in that he will wind up painting things that are ugly regardless of his skill.
that is such a load of complete b*llocks its laughable.
so, more colours will always win out?
RUBBISH.
Witness the MANY Atari ST and amiga pieces of artwork that are compositionally and artistically challenged compared with the best 8bit stuff in the late 80s. and the fact that Dave Thorpe used to do commercial Spectrum artwork that knocked alot of the c64 stuff into a cocked hat.
your opinion is not defensible and is seemingly only held by yourself in your own little world.
quite simply u have painted yourself into a corner because u cannot just admit its your own opinion. why can't u do this?
its because as u well know, several pages back u denied to TMR and PeteD that any such subjectivity existed. so in effect u have stated the fact that "i am right. everyone else is wrong because subjectivity and personal preference doesnt exist"
now u are just squirming around as usual trying to make everyone get bored with your nonesense (which even Albert thought was nonesense didnt he?)
no. i dont think this time i will let it go.
Steve
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now i am completely at a loss.
Atariksi says "If you had 256 colors, C64 pictures wouldn't be as ugly as they are."
so therefore "64 pictures are ugly"
I REPLY "If they are so ugly why do the devs of G2F use them as demos as what u can accomplish with their app on the atari"
and you dont get it?
seriously?????
Steve
Well, according to how I understand linguistic logic I'd say atariksi's words "If you had 256 colors, C64 pictures wouldn't be as ugly as they are." contain the word construction "as {adjective} as" , so it is a comparison.
Then you made this remark: "so therefore "64 pictures are ugly". This isn't a comparison anymore. It's a statement.
However, I might agree, the linguistic 'style' of atariksi's words might be chosen a bit unfortunate. BUT, is he the only one? When Rockford uses the SAME words (see his last comparison) I didn't hear anyone complain (yet).
no sorry u are wrong he meant it EXACTLY how i took it.
if u just wanted to say "better" or "even better" then u could but he specifically says "as ugly" which means he considers them "ugly" so my statement about the G2F devs opinion differing stands.
sorry but u are in this case mistaken. there is no doubt.
Steve
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now i am completely at a loss.
Atariksi says "If you had 256 colors, C64 pictures wouldn't be as ugly as they are."
so therefore "64 pictures are ugly"
I REPLY "If they are so ugly why do the devs of G2F use them as demos as what u can accomplish with their app on the atari"
and you dont get it?
seriously?????
Steve
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Prince of Persia
in Atari 8-Bit Computers
Posted
hires overlay is a nice idea until u realise just how many frames of sprite data there are in the game, and each characters is based on a 2x2 c64 sprite "grid". the logistics alone of drawing overlays on top of multicolour sprites would be horrendous without even considering the volume of memory the extra data would chew up and then the programming aggro of matching the x,y coords for each frame as they animate.
all in all, not something that anyone is going to do for free unless they have a spare couple of years
Steve